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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 05:58 PM |
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I accept that the OT was written for Jews and the NT was written for Christians. There are things to be learned from both of them. I think the muslim one is just phony and trying to cash in on the other two.
Of course you can doubt, if you were certain of everything then what would faith mean? Nothing.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 10, 2013 06:09 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:52, 10 Apr 2013.
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It's funny how what Christians think of Islam is exactly the same as what (religious) Jews think of Christianity: Heresy, you fake messiah! Actually that was the reason Jews wanted Jesus dead in the first place.
To me, it's like watching a man on LSD and a man on heroin fighting over which hallucination is real.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 06:32 PM |
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And to me, an atheist can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman 
(not to be taken seriously)
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 07:11 PM |
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While I do follow the Bible I also have my own special ideas.
So who are you anyway? A Christian? Because you follow some of Jesus Christ's ideas but you also have your own interpretations? Or just because you read a Bible?
Can you call yourself a Christian in that case?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 10, 2013 07:17 PM |
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I believe in Jesus Christ thus I am a Christian. By God's grace alone. 
my own ideas are not in contradiction to the Bible and I am merely wondering, I don't claim my own ideas are absolutely true.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 10, 2013 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:00, 10 Apr 2013.
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So free will can't be the point in question.
It actually is, I will show you why below.
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Instead the question would have to be - should God have done something to avoid "suffering of the innocent" and so on? Some magical insurance?
A wee bit of thinking shows, that this makes no sense, because it would make actions meaningless.
This is where I have to disagree. A being like god should be able to do the impossible. A benevolent god should be able to safeguard its minions without affecting free will, if that is what it wants. Making the impossible, similar like a miracle. This is the point where god and its benevolence fails so hard, its destroys every benevolent god and religion in the planet.
Here is what I think in the example:
Rapist excercises free will and rapes a women.
Women excercises free will and wants to get away. Women is forced in rape. The Women cannot excercise her freewill without a choice and for that matter, if the women has free will or not is a moot point because she gets raped.
In that scenario choice=Freewill and for that matter, god is malevolent for safeguarding the choice-freewill of the rapist and not the innocent women.
And this raises a good question: is freewill equal to having a choice?
Having free will but no choice is the same as having a choice but no freewill.
The difference is that you think freewill is something that forces the inaction of god and I think that freewill does not matter because god is "Almighty".
If then you think Freewill is absolute and things must evolve along the path of the will of an individual, then I might just ask, then why does evil exist? In this sense, raping somebody is evil. But then, freewill can exist even without evil.
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You cannot eliminate evil and keep good, because without evil good loses all meaning.
Why? Just because you think that is the case, that is true?
Without evil, good remains good.
If you lose a limb, does that make you appreciate flowers more? What if you never lost a limb?
Without evil, good remains good. No matter what. Whether one can appreciate something is one of the most arrogant assumptions people can make.
Say evil did not exist. Free will would still exist, choice would still exist.
Without evil, a rapist would not rape, but instead greet the women, or go and play video games.
Freewill is good OR bad. But if bad is gone, freewill does not lose any meaning. Its still freewill.
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From my point of view the problem is another one: if God exists, he just expects a lot
Actually, if god existed in the way the bible described it, then god is stupid and dumb to punish its creation for simply excercising its free will.
If a person can choose between good and bad, then why test them? Whats the point? If he is omniscient, he would already know the answer. So whats the point? Expectation is not my problem, its absurdity. The whole notion is so absurd, I cannot even find words to describe it.
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SCIENTIFIC FACT, however is, that it is IMPOSSIBLE - eve for God - to know two complementary attributes of a particle at the same time, for example, position and impulse, which means, that it's impossible to get ALL information.
If god is "Allmighty" he should. If he cant, he cant do snow.
If he is not almighty, he is no god.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 10, 2013 08:05 PM |
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Actually, if god existed in the way the bible described it,
So here you come to my point.
The description of god in the bible may not be the fullest or the only one credible,we could find more and then again we will understand the matter individually.
Not necessarily denying it.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 08:16 PM |
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Here is what I think in the example:
Rapist excercises free will and rapes a women.
That's nonsense. You have no idea why a rapist rapes a woman.
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Women excercises free will and wants to get away.
Nonsense as well. Can I exercise free will to magically make things happen or not happen? Look better? Earn more money? Keep people from looking at me? Keep people from writing BS?
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Women is forced in rape. The Women cannot excercise her freewill without a choice and for that matter, if the women has free will or not is a moot point because she gets raped.
Has nothing to do with free will. Woman is simply not all-powerful.
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In that scenario choice=Freewill and for that matter, god is malevolent for safeguarding the choice-freewill of the rapist and not the innocent women.
That's just nonsense. Free will doesn't mean you can pick anything you want. You can not will others to leave you alone, because that would infringe THEIR free will. You also cannot argue that god should act as a a superior judge in each case to evaluate whether someone can do something or not.
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And this raises a good question: is freewill equal to having a choice?
Having free will but no choice is the same as having a choice but no freewill.
And that's nonsense again, because free will is NOT free choice, but - I explained it already. Free will means that you have no pre-destined fate.
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The difference is that you think freewill is something that forces the inaction of god and I think that freewill does not matter because god is "Almighty".
Yes, free will means that God cannot act directly. He might give incentibes, though.
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If then you think Freewill is absolute and things must evolve along the path of the will of an individual, then I might just ask, then why does evil exist?
Wrong understanding of the free will concept, see above.
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You cannot eliminate evil and keep good, because without evil good loses all meaning.
Why? Just because you think that is the case, that is true?
Without evil, good remains good... Without evil, good remains good. No matter what. Whether one can appreciate something is one of the most arrogant assumptions people can make.
No, that's not true. If you cannot be evil - what else is there to do except being like everyone else? If there is no evil - where are the heroes? Where will you fight against all odds? There is nothing to RESIST against, to ward off, no temptation you can withstand, no murder you can avoid, no bribe you can reject... The arrogance is your problem.
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Say evil did not exist. Free will would still exist, choice would still exist.
No. You couldn't rape.
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Freewill is good OR bad. But if bad is gone, freewill does not lose any meaning. Its still freewill.
You are talking nonsense. If you have no options there is no decision, ergo the free will question is meaningless.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 08:26 PM |
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Quote:
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SCIENTIFIC FACT, however is, that it is IMPOSSIBLE - eve for God - to know two complementary attributes of a particle at the same time, for example, position and impulse, which means, that it's impossible to get ALL information.
If god is "Allmighty" he should. If he cant, he cant do snow.
If he is not almighty, he is no god.
You are mistaking words for truth. Read Wittgenstein. Language is treacherous, because language can create all kind of things without looking at whether they are possible or nlot or what they mean.
"All-powerful" is such a word. I repeat, I point to Russel and the set of all sets. all-powerful does not necessarily mean that someone with that attribute can do everything whether impossible or not. It MIGHT simply mean that he can do EVERYTHING that is possible.
Or how would you name a being that can do EVERYTHING that is possible. Would such a being NOT be all-powerful? So why do you define all-powerful as being able to do the IMpossible?
The same is true for "all-knowing", by the way. How would you call a being that knows everything that IS to be known, but not the things that are IMPOSSIBLE to know? I don't see another word than "all-knowing".
So you are clinging to mere WORDS in order to prove something you would like to prove - but it's not it and it's not that easy.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 10, 2013 08:30 PM |
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When Satan is gone. There is no sin. Therefore serve forever?!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 08:49 PM |
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What's wrong with satan? He wanted to be boss instead of the boss, that's just a healthy sense of business and competition.
As a result he got fired and founded his own business, running it pretty successfully, it would seem.
So - no hard feelings there. He's just the guy necessary to make sure there are alternatives.
On a sidenote, I always found the concept fascinating to "make a deal with the devil". Even wrote a novel about it.
Has a lot of names as well. It would seem that evil has always been deemed more interesting than good.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 10, 2013 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:24, 10 Apr 2013.
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@Jolly
I must say that this discussion is becomming tiring. It seems like you have a different defention of Freewill and that we both can never agree on something on that basis.
However, let me talk about few things.
Everyday language could be flawed but a concept is not.
The concept of god that is able to do anything, know anything and be everywhere at the same time is maybe something you have heared.
What you are trying to sell me here is that language cannot describe a concept verywell.
Let me make this clear: The being god is supernatural. If its supernatural, it should be able to defy all and EVERYTHING we have in our universe, even logic.
Why, because who knows, what we consider 1+1=2 could not hold true in another realm. Got it?
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You are mistaking words for truth.
I must because in this case, Good vs Evil must be true. In the real world that concept is pure rubbish.
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"All-powerful" is such a word. I repeat, I point to Russel and the set of all sets. all-powerful does not necessarily mean that someone with that attribute can do everything whether impossible or not. It MIGHT simply mean that he can do EVERYTHING that is possible.
The word "All-Powerful" is a superset of all sets. Everything imaginable and beyond. If you like to talk about semantics and whether or not "All-Powerful" means something else then go on.
If god cannot do the impossilbe, then again, he is no god because God is a SUPERNATURAL BEING.
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Or how would you name a being that can do EVERYTHING that is possible. Would such a being NOT be all-powerful?
Yes and no and thats because that SUPERNATURAL being goes beyond logic.
It can kill itself while being dead. Makes no sense but that what SUPERNATURAL means. Got it? Beyond reason and logic, beyond physical limitations.
If you dont buy my version, you might just aswell discuss how god can then be invisible? Or how it can be omnipresent.
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So you are clinging to mere WORDS
Oh please. Thats what everyone on this snowing planet does. If you are going to argue that somehow "mere" words are not enough for this topic
, we can use numbers.
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No, that's not true. If you cannot be evil - what else is there to do except being like everyone else?
And your point is?
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If there is no evil - where are the heroes?
They are not needed.
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Where will you fight against all odds?
Odds and harship still exists, raping and killing is gone though.
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There is nothing to RESIST against, to ward off, no temptation you can withstand, no murder you can avoid, no bribe you can reject...
That produces choice or freewill? Seriously,WTF.
Choice is more than good vs bad. Choice can be good vs good or evil vs evil. Without evil, choice can still be present.
You can choose between saving 400 dolphins or 200 sharks from death.
Both of them are "Good" or you can choose between killing 400 people or killing 5000 animals.
We are talking about hyptheticals here. Good and evil do not exist. Its a flawed concept. I might just nitpick on the concept now and say that everything you said is pure nonsense based that moral is a human invention.
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The arrogance is your problem.
And yours aswell.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 10, 2013 09:20 PM |
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The being god is supernatural. If its supernatural, it should be able to defy all and EVERYTHING we have in our universe, even logic.
The word "All-Powerful" is a superset of all sets. Everything imaginable and beyond. If god cannot do the impossilbe, then again, he is no god because God is a SUPERNATURAL BEING.
So you basically say that if god defys logic,than he can be NATURAL and SUPERNATURAL at the same time.
Following your line of thought He could be all powerful and helpless at the same time,all knowing and nothing knowing and still be god.
That is against your logic,but then again you assume the god can defy it.
So any statement you present about god would be true-he will be EXISTENT and NON-EXISTENT at the same time.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 09:24 PM |
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Seraphim, I would have liked to say something else, but I think that you should read a bit more. Humanity is a couple thousand years old - and you don't think you are inventing the wheel anew just by following a couple of avenues now that were known thousends of years ago, now, do you?
Fact is, your reasoning is flawed. You have to realize that this is just a problem of language. Possible and impossible sind description of absolute things. Either something IS possible or it isn't. All-powerful seems to be something absolute as well. Either you CAN do everything or you can't. But what is "everything"? Is "the impossible" part of "everything"? Is, for example, doing the impossible while willing oneself impossible to do anything part of the set that makes "everything"?
How "strong" an absolute thing is "all-powerful", "possible/impossible" and "everything"?
Interestingly enough, mathematics shows that a very absolute looking term - INFINITE - is in fact a very debatable term. Cantor showed there are countable infinite sets and unacountable infinite sets - with uncountable infinite sets being - yes - more infinite than countable ones.
So, dude. It's not that easy.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 10, 2013 09:31 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:39, 10 Apr 2013.
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So any statement you present about god would be true-he will be EXISTENT and NON-EXISTENT at the same time.
Yes, and then this reasoning renders all books about god, if he exists or not and so on, completely moot.
Its a self-serving, self-acknowledging concept that anything you say is both true and false.
In order for such a being to make sense, you will have to strip its "All-Powerful" or supernatural attribute and when that happens, in my reasoning, that being is not a god.
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Humanity is a couple thousand years old - and you don't think you are inventing the wheel anew just by following a couple of avenues now that were known thousends of years ago, now, do you?
Humanity is 2 million years old, at least thats the time of our closest ancestor.
I am not inventing anything here. I am think that it is possible to prove that a being such as the god of the bible/quran/tora cannot exist within our universe.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 10, 2013 09:57 PM |
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It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. - Isaiah 40:22
"He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing. - Job 26:7
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 10, 2013 09:58 PM |
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Homo sapiens are 150 - 200 thousand years old, civilization is 20-25 thousand years old.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 10:03 PM |
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I am think that it is possible to prove that a being such as the god of the bible/quran/tora cannot exist within our universe.
Well, *I* think that as well, with the addition that if such a god would exist you'd be screwed. It's just not THAT easy to prove.
You see, I find it a lot more important to show that this god, if he would indeed exist, doesn't have anything to offer.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 10, 2013 10:48 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 11, 2013 03:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:40, 11 Apr 2013.
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For me, the most interesting thing in this thread lately was the debate between JJ and Seraphim on if the impossible was really impossible on theological terms.
To me, if we are talking about violating natural law and laws of reason, the god of Abrahamic religions is traditionally known for doing that and that alone is enough to build the paradoxes we built upon his omnipotence.
When we come to semantic impossibilities however, I think JJ has a point: Does omnipotence include to be able to create a triangle that has the sum of its internal angles not 180 degrees or is that automatically excluded. Wittgenstein is indeed the right reference there but on the other hand, once you define God as beyond our capacity to understand, Wittgenstein is jellyfish to God.
Since bending natural law and having all sorts of power over our five senses qualifies as enough, the discussion about semantic impossibilities argument stands as a mind exercise only.
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?! How_Reliable_is_Carbon_Dating? ?!
Carbon dating works for things 50000 years old maximum so it is irrelevant.
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