|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 12, 2012 06:46 PM |
|
|
and buddhists say to cure yourself first 
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 09:18 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Which is completely false, as in Islamic countries they still kill each other for one reason or another. I don't know why Seraphim was shocked when I definite Islam as cancer, it has same behavior, it spreads chaotically and nothing can stop it.
Its non scientific to call Islam a cancer and is immoral towards cancer patients.
Certainly, cancer patients dont choose to get cancer.
Islam spreads among gullible people. I doubt an European woman would want to use a burqa,unless of course she is indoctrinated.
When you say, Islam is cancer, you are refering to gullible people.
Though, I dont really care. I was not offended, it was sarcasm.
@Elodin
I gave up on reasoning with you, dont ever expect an answer from me towards your responses.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 09:37 PM |
|
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 10:04 PM |
|
|
|
a muslim could say that european women are indoctrinated to not wear burqa
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 10:15 PM |
|
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 11:44 PM |
|
|
Quote:
No, this is like saying atheists are indoctrinated to not believe in GoD.
But aren't we? An atheist is a person that will deny the existence of any God, no matter what reasoning is provided. We are indoctrinated into only having faith in what is tested and proven to be true via the scientific method, or we indoctrinate ourselves through logical reasoning and conclusions. Either way we become resolute and unswayable in our views on religion, gods and morality.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 11:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
But aren't we? An atheist is a person that will deny the existence of any God, no matter what reasoning is provided.
Show me a reasonable explanation of God, and I'll show you a converted atheist.
Holding a strong belief isn't the same thing as indoctrination, by the way, and saying there is no evidence to support the conclusion that a deity exists is not necessarily a strong belief in the usual sense of the word. In effect, I believe in science and empiricism, not in the absence of God. The absence of God is a deduction I've made from the available evidence. I'd be more than happy to make a new deduction if the available evidence changes.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted September 12, 2012 11:52 PM |
|
Edited by Seraphim at 00:10, 13 Sep 2012.
|
Quote:
But aren't we? An atheist is a person that will deny the existence of any God, no matter what reasoning is provided.
We are indoctrinated into only having faith in what is tested and proven to be true via the scientific method, or we indoctrinate ourselves through logical reasoning and conclusions. Either way we become resolute and unswayable in our views on religion, gods and morality.
You seem to be ignorant on the meaning of "Indoctrination"
Quote:
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned
Quote:
Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system
This being said. We are not indoctrinated, we are educated. We know and understand that there is no PROOF for the existence of god.
We dont have faith in scientific proof because we can confirm it ourselves.No need for faith.
Tell me how you can confirm faith to be true?
Impossible.
@Fauch
Muslims cannot know what indoctrination is because they are indoctrinated. If they fully understood what indoctrination was, they would not accept blind faith.
@Salamandre
Quote:
Umm, was a metaphor, not a scientific definition.
Yes I got that. Its just that cancer is a serious disease. Unlike AIDS, cancer patients have no choice. HIV infection can be prevented, cancer is not a choice,usually.
Perhaps saying islam is like HIV would be more appropriate.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 12:10 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Muslims cannot know what indoctrination is because they are indoctrinated. If they fully understood what indoctrination was, they would not accept blind faith.
Maybe in the west where muslims are mostly poorly educated immigrants. In a muslim country though, there are indeed intellectual muslims. I think faith is blind too, and i dont know how they reconcile their faith with their intellect, but they claim to do it. Maybe it's a matter of upbringing, some think of religion as their roots, their family heritage and don't want to let it go. Take Ken Miller for example, the man is a biologist who accepts darwinian evolution fully, yet he still defines himself as a catholic. How he combines the two is beyond me, but there are people like that.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 12:16 AM |
|
Edited by Ghost at 00:38, 13 Sep 2012.
|
|
If you mean! How can we see fragrances? You can create many a science. Augustine of Hippo style, etc.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 01:04 AM |
|
|
@Ghost, if you feel ignored often, is only because nobody can understand google botched translations. What about taking a few english courses if you enjoy so much HC?
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 01:06 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Maybe in the west where muslims are mostly poorly educated immigrants. In a muslim country though, there are indeed intellectual muslims.
Fewer than here, actually. With basic literacy or lower 30%s in most of the middle east, there are very, very few people living there that would be considered "Intellectuals" in most of our countries (aka, a country that any HCer happens to live).
Quote:
Take Ken Miller for example, the man is a biologist who accepts darwinian evolution fully, yet he still defines himself as a catholic. How he combines the two is beyond me, but there are people like that.
Actually, the two are absolutely compatible since Darwin (in his book) states that evolution is guided by the hand of God, and that God was the original creator as well. So, basically he's saying that he's a christian that believes that living creatures change over time. *Shrug*
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 01:31 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 01:55, 13 Sep 2012.
|
well, i didnt have the desert emirates in mind. i'm reffering to countries like Turkey, Iran, India. The literacy ratio is way above 30% in these countries and they have people who are muslim and can be identified as intellectual by western standarts. I am not talking about a handpicked dozen.
Darwin's faith as far as i know is an issue of debate, some say he lost it and some say he didn't. i didn't read his biography so i have no first-hand knowledge on the subject. But it's irrelevant: The concept of survival of the fittest and slow shift of living organisms from one specie to another is not compatible with the story of eden. Simply because there is no couple you can point out as the first homo sapiens. it's like trying to decide who were the first speakers of modern english and not ancient english, everybody spoke what their parent spoke, the change occurs in generations. If Darwin remained a christian, what i say about Ken Miller applies to Darwin as well. He's a scientist not a prophet, his personal beliefs are irrelevant.
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 01:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Actually, the two are absolutely compatible since Darwin (in his book) states that evolution is guided by the hand of God
Really? Where exactly in his book does he say that? In his book he states that evolution is guided by natural selection.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 02:36 AM |
|
|
As far as I know, "God" is only mentioned 3 times in the Origin of Species, and none of them are in the context of God guiding evolution.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 03:00 PM |
|
|
Yeah Darwin! Origin of Aristotle and Darwin continued on the question. Aristotle to consider the formation of species in the teeth when we have the sharp canines, it fit meat for chewing practice. The same things that the detection of the scent or where we come from?
@Sal
one of these days (not months).. lazy king!
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 07:34 PM |
bonus applied by angelito on 15 Sep 2012. |
|
Quote:
But aren't we? An atheist is a person that will deny the existence of any God, no matter what reasoning is provided. We are indoctrinated into only having faith in what is tested and proven to be true via the scientific method, or we indoctrinate ourselves through logical reasoning and conclusions. Either way we become resolute and unswayable in our views on religion, gods and morality.
If you deny something, you know it exists. If you don't belivie in it, you are doing it from a neutral position. But thats merely sematics over the English language.
Your core point is still valid: Indictrination is indoctrination, no matter how neutral people think it is.
Even Seraphim goes into this trap. Indoctrination and education may differ, but basic education and indoctrination is the same. I mean, we need to get the core ideas somewhere, the core ideas of what we think logic is, and more. After a certain point, education stops being indoctrination and starts being a device that allows a person to aquire more viewpoints and ideas.
First teachings about the political systems reeks of indoctrination in many states, as do teachings about breaking/bleeding edge theory, like Psychology or Quantum Theory(read up on aether some time, quantum theory replaced the aether theory).
So you are taught that A holds true, because it holds true. Because of A, B might happen, and B holds true because of A. And now C.... etcetra. Or, we have Fact A, Fact B, Fact C, etc.
The fact that we teach math, and that science is based on at the least 2 centuries of attempting to prove theories, does not invalidate that school has more lessons and classes than just science.
A national education system also has several benefits:
-Language standarization and exterminating odd dialects
-Common language again allows national or regional newspapers
-Extermination of myths surrounding common things
-Group socialisation
And what do this have to do with the topic? Ironically in a lot of countries, Christian countries that is... before standardized education became common and decent, if even standardized by law... Churches served a lot of the same purpose. Now... because of the illiteracy and the formalness of the action, written language unification did not happen. But there was still a major unification of the spoken language, and a extremely important social event, which was equal to going to the marked in some citites. Even myth extermination was done, which was may or maybe not to the benefit of those social groups. And to avoid shoehorning it in: Announcements. Marked, trader, law decrees. Public education. Even if the shoehorned stark atheists of the upper class of 1850 despised the bumpkin churchgoers for being unwashed peasants, and for being uneducated enough for buying the church propaganda, we also say the same about the school system and its teachings, in a "wiser retrospective".
School today also serve as a timesink to allow the raiser of the kids some freedom, which again means that the time spent has to be spent on something, which might also result in more wisdom/indoctrination.
And yet I complete missed to convey the point: Nothing is true because its told so, and just because its school does not mean its indoctrination.
Looking back 50 years we can see that there was "indoctrination" back then, and looking back at todays schools in 50 years time? We will spot more.
Looking at religion, groups, societies? Any outsider can say certain things are indoctrination, and yet its always true.
After all, people who critic religion are either outsiders, got bored of the way the group mechanic worked, or looked at it as a disillusion because it didn't make any sense if you stepped back from the religious axiom. But the same could be said of any group with its rituals, even if its something as simple/common as honor in online games.
Society works in the same way, hence: without accepting societies axioms, it does not make any sense. Society is a little different however, since you are forced to live in it to obtain some of the benefit it gives. A social grouping do not follow that ruleset, and might be abandoned. I guess "westerns" dislike Muslims for the fact that Islam tend to be a omnipresent element within Muslim societies, in the same way raging Atheists dislike Christianity for having so strong cultural connections that its connected to everything in some manner. And the Revolutionary French disliked the Freemasons for having a actual Secret Club in the middle of the mandatory Club.
Religion is nothing more than a part of a problem, or at the least a perceived problem. Agnostics dislike that religion get a free pass, Christians dislike any critic, Muslims may accidentally move into a ghetto, etc.
So my question is simply: Why should Religion Christianity get a free pass in the "west"?
The reason I ask is because half the reason Muslims is perceived as a problem is because their religion don't get the same free pass. Nor do cults.
____________
|
|
Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 07:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
So my question is simply: Why should Religion Christianity get a free pass in the "west"?
The same reason why Christianity does not get a 'free-pass' in the middle-east. Though, I dare-say westerners have developed a certain tolerance while out counterparts have not.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 09:31 PM |
|
|
Its still a rather amsuing question, if you made... lets say a neutral society(and somehow got past all the logical fallancies of doing so in the first place).... who would get a free pass?
____________
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted September 13, 2012 11:18 PM |
|
|
We aren't actually a "Christian" country, as Elodin so often likes to proclaim. Our country is founded on the best principals of many different religions and cultures, dominantly christian yes but still diverse regardless, and we do not have a national religion. So as long as you can prove that you are not a cult, feel free to set up shop here, we sill not stop any of your odd practices unless you break the law.
TLDR version: We don't have a religious orientation here. 
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
