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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 12:56 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:58, 15 Jul 2011.
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I don't understand how the catholic church has the rights to change the words of their god.
Atleast in islam, they do everything they can to make sure that the Quran does not change which is why it is more old fashioned then its sibling religions.
In my opinion, all christians who actually believe in the Old Testament are more or less extremists. I can accept the thought that people for some reason believe that some unknown alien organism or force helped create the world, but then it would be a different religion.
But the point is that it really annoys me when religious people have to change their religions in order to make it fit new discoveries and changes in the society etc.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2011 12:59 AM |
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Sorry, it's just that I tried to shape what I posted in theist terms, arguing that even if one believes in god, why question "why he created diseases", as they have been there for such a long time prior to humans. Similarily it is hypocrisy to ask that while failing to see what a disease the human race is, hence it would only be fair if a theist questioning the purpose of pathogenic microorganisms simultaneously questioned the point of "god creating humans" in the first place.
Oh, I understand. It is hard for an atheist to discuss a lot of things without borrowing concepts from theism. You are correct that if God does not exist a gnat's life has as much intrinsic value as the life of a human being.
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The reason I DO refer to MOST humans as more parasitic than they could be if they wanted, is slaughtering animals for meat consumption and other methods of their exploition, which COULD EASILY be avoided if everyone adapted a vegetarian diet.
Why is living off animals parasitic and living off plants not? What do you base your belief that animals have more intrinsic value than a plant on? Why is being parasitic bad? What is the meaning of "bad?" What is the standard for measuring what is "bad" and what is "good?"
If I wanted to raise chickens and kill 7 every day for the rest of my life and leave them all to rot in a field, what would make that "bad?"
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I am sorry, but stuff like this is just crap and exactly one of the reasons why I dislike religion so much.
You can't even stand up for what your holy book says and have to adapt it to modern scientific discoveries.
It is ridiculous and this is exactly the reason you can't have a debate with extremist religious people about science. Because they tend to always make up stuff like this in order to make it fit their religion. I think its hilarious actually.
Crap like this is one reason atheists have such a crappy reputation in the world.
He gave you an honest answer and one that is completely in line with what the text of the Bible says. It a FACT that the word translated "Day" can mean an indeterminate length of time. Try to open your mind and educate yourself before you begin an anti-theist rant. IN FACT you'll not find any reference where the "seventh day" of creation ever ended and the book of Hebrews says we are still in that seventh day, the day of rest/salvation. The next "day" is the day of judgement.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 15, 2011 12:59 AM |
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Ah, ranting at the church in general. K', we're all good. 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 01:04 AM |
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I want a non-religious scientific source saying that a day can mean an infinite amount of time then.
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Crap like this is one reason atheists have such a crappy reputation in the world.
I guess I should be happy with that I live in a country where only 5-10% of the population are religiously active and 80% consider themselves to be atheists.
I am very glad that the leaders here don't say "God bless you!" all the time.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2011 01:08 AM |
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I don't understand how the catholic church has the rights to change the words of their god.
Atleast in islam, they do everything they can to make sure that the Quran does not change which is why it is more old fashioned then its sibling religions.
The words of the Bible have NOT been changed. We know that from the many thousands of manuscripts we have and a process called textual criticism. We know we have the words of the original documents to within 99.9% accuracy. The discrepancies being mostly things like word order.
Clicky
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
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In my opinion, all christians who actually believe in the Old Testament are more or less extremists.
Nah, we are just rational, free thinking people. I think an example of extremists are people who attack religion and yet can't PROVE the position of the religion is incorrect.
A person who attacks a religious person for having faith is acting hypocritically unless he can 100% percent PROVE the religious person to be wrong.
If you claim you can PROVE God did not create the universe present your evidence.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 15, 2011 01:14 AM |
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Therefore what your wrote for good and evil seems kinda vague to me.
It's no easier for me to nail the meanings of those words down than anyone else, that is once they leave me in attempting to communicate.
I've been at this too long. I need to head back out. The OSM is just too much fun. I'll share one more view.
We all have long lists of what we would change, correct? Things that we think (if there is a God) whew boy has He failed. Can you imagine all of the list tallied up?
Anyway, if all things were indeed "prevented" and all good things decided in advance? Would we not be, no more than puppets on strings?
Please don't get me wrong about this. I am challenged nearly to breaking at times within my own puny struggles (they are to some, not to others) and the world is full of horror done by the hands of man. However as bad as things are I don't think an ultimate warden reigning over a prison called Earth is the answer either. I don't know what the answer is for the world. I do know what it is for me and also realize that my medicine is poison to others. I don't get that either.
Take care. Good thread despite the naysayers.
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"Do your own research"
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 01:22 AM |
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But the point is that it really annoys me when religious people have to change their religions in order to make it fit new discoveries and changes in the society etc.
why? doesn't it show that they are open-minded? they don't say "You are wrong because of what is written in that book" they rather say "ok, you proved our beliefs were wrong, so we'll correct that"
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If I wanted to raise chickens and kill 7 every day for the rest of my life and leave them all to rot in a field, what would make that "bad?"
I don't know, ask the chickens how they feel about it? if they don't care or are happy about it, I guess it's not bad 
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted July 15, 2011 01:25 AM |
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I want to raise this scenario ,if somebody who is depressed commits suicide because he/she has PTSD or some other disorder,will he/she go to hell?
There are a bunch of religions out there, Im pretty sure you have noticed that within your region...
Not every religion has the same rules so it depends on who you ask... In christianity it doesnt matter what the scenario is you go to hell if you commit a suicide, certain muslim groups get 70 virgins for taking their own lives, jews... I dont know what are their rules which is sort of pathetic considering my current location 
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Or take euthanasia as an example.If somebody chooses to end his/her life because of unbearable pain,will he/she be cast to hell?
In christianity YES
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Why does god give diseases?
If you dont believe in god he.she doesnt, if you do believe in god, he/she does so because he has a plan, plan a mere human lke yourself cant understand hence asking those questions is useless
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Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
choice, constant testing, however the whole apple thing is one long philosophical topic
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Why cant he interfere with human free will?
He is all mighty, he can, he chooses not to
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Why did he create diseases in the first place?
Testing your faith, master plan....
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Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brought such despair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.
Without pain and death there would be no humanity, those two define us, I personally feel like there are way too many of us anyway
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Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?
If you believe in god why assume god has human set of emotions or values, because somebody said we were made in his image ?
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If he is not "Human" and we cannot understand him,how does the bible make understanding him possible?
If we dont know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?
Who ever claimed we know, Faith is not about knowing its about believing
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How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
160 million years dinosaures reigned this planet.The modern human dates back to 200k years before, 0.2 milions of years.
All animals were created in genesis, dinos are a part of that group, there is no scientific proof that humans didnt exist back when dinos did only scientific assumption and lack of evidence and those dont contradict religion, nor there is any indication that dinos werent a part of animals originally created by god....
Science cant prove non existance of god nor can religion prove existance of god, its an endless loop that leads nowhere... hence concentrate on enjoying the living crap out of your life and try to be a good man while doing so... thats all that matters
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 15, 2011 01:27 AM |
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I don't know, ask the chickens how they feel about it? if they don't care or are happy about it, I guess it's not bad
Because chickens are known for their sapience.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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LionoftheNorth
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 01:46 AM |
- penalty applied by Corribus on 14 Aug 2011. |
Edited by Corribus at 06:41, 14 Aug 2011.
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Also: nice to have another catholic here!
I hope you're not intending me I'd be classified as a heretic by the catholic church.
Don't worry. Even saint Augustine had some heretical views. (he believed in predestination)
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I don't understand how the catholic church has the rights to change the words of their god.
Atleast in islam, they do everything they can to make sure that the Quran does not change which is why it is more old fashioned then its sibling religions.
The bible is not the Quran. It is a product of the tradition of the Catholic Church. The church created the bible (trough divine inspiration) and not the other way around. The bible is a part of a long tradition that is still renewing in these days. That's the beauty of Catholicism, we have a Magisterium that did not end with Jesus, and the miracles are continuing even unto these days.
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Crap like this is one reason atheists have such a crappy reputation in the world.
Amen! Would anyone seriously believe that a story of an extremely complex process wouldn't be full of metaphors and symbolism when presented to copper-stone age people, who had no concept of "billions of years", "mutation", "photosynthesis" or "dinosaurs" for that matter?
MOD NOTE: Penalty applied for unauthorized posting by a previously banned member.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 15, 2011 01:56 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 01:57, 15 Jul 2011.
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That's actually quite an interesting argument... of course God couldn't use technobabble to speak to the people of ancient times, he had to use metaphores that they could understand.
The dude should re-launch the bible for the science generation.
At the last page he's like "PS, in your face Hawking."
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 15, 2011 02:06 AM |
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@Elodin
I dont not wish to challenge your beliefs and or religion.
Firstly:
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Christians proposed evolution long before Darwin came along. But a theistic evolution rather than an evolution based on chance.
Like what is that theistic evolution?Also,you cannot name it evolution because the term evolution is used by science.
The last thing I read about the "Timeline"problem about the bible is that it said that the world was 1000 years old.Some posts here reveald that they might have miss used the word "Day" maybe for "Eon".
This leads to my conclusion that there is a "Certain" uncertainty with the dates in the bible.
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Oh, and can you PROVE evolution took place? Nope. It remains a theory.
Well,I am no scientist but a chimp has a 95% simmilar genetic structure to that of a human.This implies a connection.
Evolution exists because we can see how simple lifeforms,such as virues, evolve.The HIV is globally known as a virus that constantly creates new strains inside the human body.For that reason,proper vaccination is impossible.
Cancer is another example of evolution.Its just some bunch of alien cells winning over your immune system.
You might ask,"They are illnesses,not mammls".Bacteria,viruses and virions are able to mutate or evolve very fast because of theri simple structure.What takes millions of years to achieve for mammals,happens within hours in micro organisms.
Now ask yourself why people dont use penicilin today...
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My question to you. How did the universe produce itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing? I want the First Cause. If you say a singularity, what caused the singularity?
Why nothing?It could be something completely exotic.Antimatter perhaps?The science has no perfect answer to "What caused it?",only some "Perhaps".Though,since primordial light did not pass through the primordial gass that was created at the time,we have no way to know what the heck happend there.
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Another question: How did life come from inanimate matter? Prove your answer please.
[quote/]
Every organism is made of the elements of what you find on earth.This means that organic matter stems from your earth.This ground.Now,the question is how it happend?
The problem with such question is that due to not available data one could only speculate how it happend.Viruses are primitive pseudo organisms and we still dont understand how they turn from dead rock to killing machines.The answer lies with them.
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Really? Provide a link to your source that says sickness usually destroys a family. That has not been my experience at all. Usually a family rallies around their sick loved one and pulls together to help the sick person. They take turns sitting with the person or ministering to them as needed.
Why do you think people go to psychologists after a death event?
If they cant get over the strain,depression followed by alcohol followed by drugs could occur.
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Now, such circumstances can also show the ugliness in a person. For example a family member who does not love the sick person may refuse to help and may become hostile of other family members question that. That is not a fault of the sickness but a fault in the human heart.
its not ugliness,its pain.It is such a pain that people get under heavy depression.
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Love is immaterial and makes no sense in a world that is purely materialistic (devoid of God.) I'm not talking about erotic love.
I disagree.Love is not only metrialistic(as to provide offspring),it is also egoistic because cetain appeals are asked in order it to be successful.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 15, 2011 03:01 AM |
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Christians proposed evolution long before Darwin came along. But a theistic evolution rather than an evolution based on chance.
I'm not sure who wrote this, but to whomever did: which evolution is based on chance, because it's certainly not the one Darwin came up with. I figure if I point that out enough around here everyone might finally get it. Darwin was, by the way, a Christian. Mendel was a monk. Einstein was a deist. And Dawkins is an atheist. What difference does it make? Great scientific minds come from all persuasions, and it doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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Oh, and can you PROVE evolution took place? Nope. It remains a theory.
Evolution is a fact. The theory of natural selection is an explanation for how how it happened. While the word "prove" has no meaning in modern science (again, something I've pointed out here millions of time), there is overwhelming evidence in support of the theory of natural selection.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 15, 2011 04:28 AM |
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I'll hopefully have time to address some comments tomorrow.
I'm always amazed that some atheists think that the theory of evolution destroys Christianity. Typically they'll claim to have a great knowledge of the Bible and Christianity. Yet they are ignorant of the writings of some of the great Christian philosophers/theologians and of the Bible itself.
For anyone interested in an introduction to theistic evolution below is a link to an article in Christianity Today that discusses Augustine's discussions about evolution. Augustine lived loooooong before Darwin for those who don't know. It is a four page article so it does not take very long to read.
Clicky
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 15, 2011 05:22 AM |
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That's great, Elodin. Unfortunately it's useless to science except as a historical anecdote.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 08:02 AM |
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Question: What exactly is the difference between religion and superstition?
Answer: The only difference is SCALE, actually.
If you think about superstition - if you take all superstitious beliefs and write them down, out comes a codex of rules how to behave in certain situations or generally to avoid misfortune or to attract fortune, to avoid "evil", to attract good and benevolent stuff ... you know what I mean.
How is that different from the Bible or any other religious writing? Religion is old, as old as history, and in the beginning people had not that much knowledge about the world they lived in. It was alien to them and a very dangerous place. All kinds of things were happening, and what you needed were quick and easy rules to maneouver the pitfalls.
The result is, that humans wanted to PLEASE the "forces" that they assumed had to exist in some way, serving their whims, doing things to please and placate them.
However, time has passed, and humans have learned a lot. They try to understand. What's left is death.
Is religion more than a residual superstition "covering" the "misfortune" of death and the individual fear of an end of existance? What is religion, if not a codex of rules how to behave to avoid that biggest misfortune of them all?
So can't we just for once talk about black cats, magic numbers, laundry on New Year's Eve, ascending and descending melodies for songs and "bad harmonies", Friday 13th, walking under ladders, rabit foots and 4-leave-clovers, Tarot and I-ging, instead about why it adds up, what doesn't seem to add up?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 15, 2011 08:18 AM |
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What I find amusing is the "modern" Christians' habit to use (read - abuse in 90% of the cases) the science to "prove" something about their religion (Darth Vader would say "I find your lack of faith disturbing" here) but when the same science proves that something regarding the myths or even the teachings of this religion has nothing to do with its religious interpretation, then everybody clings back to "this is about faith, not reason" and similar crap. Make up your mind already - do you want to believe or do you want to prove something? In the latter case too many things are already disproven I'm afraid - no matter how many pseudo-philosophical "arguments" are employed - and you just have to live with it. Thus I'd suggest the former.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 15, 2011 08:54 AM |
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Elodin:
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A person who attacks a religious person for having faith is acting hypocritically unless he can 100% percent PROVE the religious person to be wrong.
If you claim you can PROVE God did not create the universe present your evidence.
Case A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
Either the statement is "disprove something that is not been proven", which is impossible because the value of such a thing is nonsense.
If you want me to prove that god did not create the universe then we need evidence for the existance of such a God, before we can even look any further at the query.
Or B: You are looking for some other argument.
Or you will say "Then what caused the cause of the cause?", and yet you refuse to explain what created God.
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Oh, and can you PROVE evolution took place? Nope. It remains a theory.
And this piece of litteral stupidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
Here is the story:
1. Massive e coli storage, feeding, recording, and general experimetns using only materials and time(meaning no gene manipulation)
2. Suddenly in one of the glasses there is now E-Coli that EATS citrat, and it has genes that E-coli never possesed in the first place.
So here ya go, your evidence.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 15, 2011 09:46 AM |
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Why does god give diseases?
Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
Why cant he interfere with human free will?
Why did he create diseases in the first place?
Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brought such despair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.
1.Microorganisms are living animals too,it would be logical like other animals to ask in their mind(if they have one) "Why God created humans".We are poison for our own world,when we ask why God created diseases,we can ask: Why God gave us intelligence to can destroy the other creation of Him.
2.God gave to humans free will,if He didn't want like humans to don't eat the apple,God wouldn't create it.He wanted to test humans faith,but they fail.
3.He can interfere but He don't want.This is a test from God,a test of our faith which will end at the End of Times.
4.Is the same question like asking "Why God created cars?",God created microorganisms or circumstances that can produce diseases.
5.Evil is just absence of God.Where isn't God,there is the Devil.Where is the Devil,there is pain.
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Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?
If he is not "Human" and we cannot understand him,how does the bible make understanding him possible?
If we dont know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?
How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
160 million years dinosaures reigned this planet.The modern human dates back to 200k years before, 0.2 milions of years.
1.Everywhere you look you find something that tells you:"God exist",there are humans,there are animals,there are trees,there is life,there is earth,there is universe.But there are also thing that says:"Satan exists",there is pain,there is death,there is anger.
2.God created humans in Haven,not on Earth,then humans were banished from Haven and put on Earth.Humans aren't such a joke,with our nuclear weapons dinosaurs are a joke.In 250 millions years,dinosaurs didn't made even spears,but humans in 200.000 years invented guns.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 10:08 AM |
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In the latter case too many things are already disproven I'm afraid
IIRC no religion makes scientific points to be proven or not, so this is not exactly valid.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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This thread is pages long: 
