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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 10, 2016 08:25 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
Hit the nail on the head. Christ was never about his and his own he loved and cared for even those that rejected him for their own salvation (st peter) or for eartly reward such as Judas. He even loved those that professed him as their enemy nsmely the Jews. The reason i don't follow Christianity is because i wish for kingdom of heaven on earth.
From god and christ's perspective life on earth is like the matrix or a game. Things may appear important or suffering dire to us but in reality they are not, they're illusions. Now spiritual suffering is something else the suffering of the soul. I've only ever experienced it once i was having a normal casual day and then i had a passing thought can't even remember what but i cried for the first time in years tears pouring down my face.It had nothing to do with my current life or any action i did i forgotten something extremely important but extremely painful. I can't even begin to imagine what. The emotion can be likened to ouliving all those that loved you and you've loved, being forgotten but lingering on but that's simply nothing to do with me not even had any close relatives or friends die or abandon me.
Very deep young friend and all I can say is I respect your pov about the path you walk.
I will add one thing that may pertain to the last of the above in the some fashion, and it is very personal.
I am near the end of my life because Mr. Arthur-Ritis is one powerful nasty oppressor. And at the end of much sin and error early-on in my first half of my life combined with the last half of this same life, were I have served and loved with all that I am and at times great sacrifices in both the physical & spiritual realms...I will die without very much tangible to show for that effort. Near poverty is my reward. However, to a soul that has not carried one dollar in his pocket for nearly five years in conserving what mammon he has for the needs of others, I can at least die knowing and secure that by the end, I chose God and the people around me over the wealth and possessions of gain.
I was called to be Salt and now I understand what that means real-time and in this world not a next. Salt, when used correctly, disappears in a soup but if it was added correctly it will enhance that mixture, even if all those who partake of that single pot are unaware of the addition of the salt.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 10, 2016 08:58 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
Christ was never about his and his own he loved and cared for even those that rejected him for their own salvation (st peter) or for eartly reward such as Judas. He even loved those that professed him as their enemy nsmely the Jews.
Until it is time to send them all to hell, praise be!
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 10, 2016 09:11 PM |
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A houseless man (not homeless) said to me so long as he has helped even a single person even a little his life would have been in vain. And the salt analogy is perfect, people only notice it if it's missing like with many things. Yet we don't aid or touch people's lives for recognition (which we will only get from like minded people) we do it because it's in our individual nature. For me it's akin to wetting myself in dark pants, feels good but nobody else can tell. ^^
Note that it's difficult to put commas on my phone so my grammar is simply awful haha. Do excuse me normally i edit my posts a number of times even after the tenth edit it's still not perfect
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 10, 2016 09:19 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
...And the salt analogy is perfect, people only notice it if it's missing like with many things...
Of course...because it was not originally mine. But you already know that.
Make it Great...friend.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 10, 2016 09:37 PM |
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Explanation of the word dīn
Let AlHazin enlighten ya...
Sorry for the late response my friends, it took me time to find the info and translate it all, but as promissed I'm explaining in this post what I said to you markkur the other day.
Artu mate, I understand what you say, this is something we could compare to the first meaning of the word sun and its arabic equivalent Chams, which both mean the star shining near Earth making ou day, yet the two have different original meaning.
Yet, in the case of Dīn (deen) this is not the same. If you check for the word Dīn, it is stated that the word has no equivalent in western languages (indo-european ones). I don't know the exact meaning that has been given to it in turkish, but I'll tell ya about the arabic.
The word Religion, itself, is already quite hard to precisely define, this is what tSar asked for and what we're trying to do. But genereally, a quick research will often lead you more or less to this definition :
Quote:
"A determined set of beliefs and dogmas defining the relationship of man with the sacred. A set of specific practices and rituals specific to each of these beliefs."
This definition might relatively match to the idea we generally have of christianism or judaism, while it excludes atheist religions such as buddhism. But it is totally different from the definition muslims give to islam. I make myself clearer.
I'll be using quotes in arab written in latin, they will be written in italic so you can identify them easily, every quote is translated of course. In bold will be the word dīn and the words related to it, as it sometimes used as a verb, a thing that the word "religion" doesn't know.
These are the arabic definitions of the word dīn :
1- Retribution, be it good or bad : Māleekee yawmee 'dīn for "Owner or Master of the retribution day (judgement day)" ; Wa inna 'dīna la wāqi'onn for "And indeed the retribution is to happen".
Another example : Ibna Ādam, kunn kayfa shi'ta, kamā tadīnu tudān for "Child of Adam, be as you wish, like you do, you shall be done", ressembles the idea of karma which is by the way always present in islam.
2- Obedience, meaning obeying to God, there the meaning gets closer to the religion's one : Wa lahu mā fee 'samāwātee wa 'l arthee wa lahu 'dinu wāssiban a fa ghayra 'lahi tattaqūn for "And to Him the skies and the Earth, and to Him the dīn constantly, how do you other than Him be awed of?!"
In the late example it means that God is the only one to be obeyed, that his orders or commandmants are above any other's.
3- Dīn according to ulamas :
- A name to all what is God adored with.
- A divine set to the "brain owner", the "thinkers", the "aware" englobing roots and branches.
- What is followed as commandmants and avoided as prohibitions.
- A directing divine set to the conscious* ones by their choice of the praised to what is best for self.
- A directing divine set to the conscious ones by their choice of the praised, as believing and praying.
4- Dīn according to Qorān :
The meaning of dīn in the qoranic understanding is very precise, this is a quote of the cheikh ayatollah jafar Al Subhany :
Quote:
Dīn according to qorān idiom is the general divine way that englobes all human kind in all times and spaces, and it doesn't admit any changings and transformations with time ongoing and ages developpement, and it is obliged for all humans to follow it, as it is exposed (explained) to all humaity in all history eras with a single idiom without contradiction and contrast, and because of that we find that Qorān doesn't employ the word dīn in the plural ever, so it ain't mentioned : Al Adiān (plural of dīn) rather it is mentioned in singular, as it is said : Inna 'dīna 'inda Allahi Al islāmu, wa ma 'khtalafa al'latheena ootoo 'l keetāba illā min ba'di mā djā'ahumu 'l 'ilmu, baghyann baynahum, wwa man yakfur bee āyātee 'llāhi fa inna 'llāha saree'u 'l hissāb = "Indeed the dīn to God is islam, and did differ those who were brought the book only after that did knowledge come to them, ... between them, and who denies God's ... then God is a fast calculator."
Wa man yatabi' ghayra al islāmi dīnan fa lan yuqbala minhu wa huwa fi 'l 'ākhiraty minna 'l khāssirīn = "And who follows other than islam as dīn won't be accepted from him and he is in the afterwards² amongst the losers."
Allright, don't get the two last examples wrong, islam as a dīn is different from islam as a religion (the commandments), the dīn is something common to all true faiths, so a christian might be in the dīn even though he is not a muslim, islam as a religion is just a manifestation of the abstract principle that is the dīn.
Sharia means the rules and commandmants, be them of behaviour, social... etc, that changement can get to with time and societies development and peoples' "completion", so in this case we can use a plural tense, shara'i'. Which is present in qorān, so as it certifies the unicity of the principle of dīn, like stated in the two previous examples, it informs about the existence of a sharia for every people. Following this, mankind has been invited in fact to one dīn and it is islam, which was born of united assets (origins) in all spaces and times, and sharias or laws were in every time and circumstance a way to get to this unique dīn, mere ways for nations and tribes, every folk according to the requirements of his age and the extent of his needs.
Then we have a third concept, called Milla, which basically means the sunnas (traditions) with which human life rises and uprights, the sunnas, which were deposited in the concept of "taking, quoting and inspiring from others".
Therefore, qorān adds this expression (milla) to the prophetes and peoples, example :
Qul bal millata ibrāheema haneefan wa mā kāna mina 'l mushreekeen = "Say but Abraham's upright way and he wasn't amongst the misbelievers."
Innī taraktu millata qawmin lā yu'minūna bi 'llāhee wa hum bi 'l ākhiraty hum kāfirūn = "Indeed I left the way of people that don't believe in God and are of the afterwards refuters."
Not to forget something important that the milla is to be "nexted"
by other than God. I explain myself : we say millat Mohammed (SAAWS), millat Ibrāheem (AS), it's never added to God, so we can never say : millat Allah, cause God is not an example to follow, he's to be obeyed.
I hope you understand mates, it has been a bit hard to translate as the arabic used is pretty old-fashioned compared to what we speak today, and these are mostly philosophical and very abstract notions.
Enjoy.
Sheerz.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 10, 2016 10:59 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:03, 10 Dec 2016.
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AlHazin, ANY word with such terminological baggage, will develop layers. We all know what "a theory" means but if you read it from Thomas Khun, the definition wont be as short as it is in dictionary. And you can have quite abstract discussions about what constitutes a theory, how is a theory different than a "guess" etc. It wont change the basis that various languages have a specific word when you want to say "the theory of gravity was revolutionary." In Arabic, theory is Nazariye and you can have philosophers discussing "what constitutes a Nazariye" with a different approach, still, when you translate the sentence above, you will write "Nazariye of gravity was revolutionary." If I have to translate a sentence such as "Abrahamic religions are from the Middle-East by origin," in Turkish, the word I will use for religion is Din. As far as I remember, this is the same in Arabic but please correct me if I'm wrong. Now, if this is about semantics:
Quote:
Dīn according to qorān idiom is the general divine way that englobes all human kind in all times and spaces, and it doesn't admit any changings and transformations with time ongoing and ages development
Put aside the fact how horribly dangerous and dogmatic such a notion is, let's go back to how Harari specifies what makes a religion, a religion:
Religions hold that there is a superhuman order, which is not the product of human whims or agreements
That is exactly what (true) Din is according to Quran and it isn't slightly different than any other, thousands of religion in the sense that it claims, it is a true one. But it takes one step further, it claims it is THE true one.
Quote:
the dīn is something common to all true faiths
By true, what you mean is Abrahamic. That's very literal in Islam and in fact, all previous "true" faith is considered legit because Islam's claim is that, before they were "distorted" they had no difference from Islam. They were, at core, the same message. Abraham, Moses, Jesus were all sent to preach the true faith of Islam but their prophecy had been betrayed and manipulated.
Quote:
These are mostly philosophical and very abstract notions.
They are not. They are directories that have no rational basis of confirmation other than their "historical aura." If you strip away the historicity, they are not more abstract or philosophical than saying "Black cats bring bad luck."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 11, 2016 09:18 AM |
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Hey skeptic artu.
Well you use the word dīn, just like we use it to speak of people's religion overhere too. Yet, in the academic arabic, the idiom dīn has a specific definition which is different from religion. Just google the word and you'll find stated everywhere that dīn has no true equivalent, so we use religion, yeah, but just because ther is no real traduction of the real meaning of the word.
artu said:
That is exactly what (true) Din is according to Quran and it isn't slightly different than any other, thousands of religion in the sense that it claims, it is a true one. But it takes one step further, it claims it is THE true one.
Yes mate, but believing in God is not what we call a religion, the religion are the dogmas we make around it, there begins the difference between the two meanings. "Merely" believing in God doesn't make you religious.
While what you say is true, the dīn doesn't need to be abrahamic to be. Every human being is born on the fitra, which is a form of human "instict" that makes him bear the dīn inside of him, and then his parents, culture, society changes him.
artu said:
They are directories that have no rational basis of confirmation other than their "historical aura." If you strip away the historicity, they are not more abstract or philosophical than saying "Black cats bring bad luck."
No mate, you can't reduce a religion to the meaning of a superstition. There are many proofs that was is stated in qorān (since I didn't read Bible or Torah, yet studied Torah history) proving that this is way more than an unfounded belief. It has a rational basis.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 11, 2016 09:43 AM |
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Careful with the word 'rational' there my dear Ali-Baba, in western societies it may only be applied to liberal enlightenment theories and practices, to do so for religion is extremely taboo! ^_^ Or so the failing system's advocates see it.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 11, 2016 09:59 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:15, 11 Dec 2016.
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The problem is you take Quran's suggestions as reality, yes, Quran claims everybody is born with an instinct to believe in a monotheistic God and that is our "fitrat," (that would be expected since it is a monotheistic religion with a claim of universality) but nothing neurological or sociological or historical supports such a claim. Humans have existed for about 200.000 years on this earth and they were not drawn to monotheism for about at least 195.000 years of it, neither are they drawn to it today, if they are raised as atheists or buddhists or hindus...
And, of course there is no proof of God or that "din" is indeed the external reality written in Quran, either, there is a rhetoric such as "Don't you see the countless evidence God has created in front you" etc in many verses but natural phenomenon is not a direct evidence of God as that rhetoric proclaims, monotheistic or not, every religion interpreted natural events they couldn't explain otherwise by the interference of Gods, be it a thunderstorm, a flower blooming or an ant colony. The God of Gaps is a very outdated argument however and today we know better. If there was actual proof or rationallly convincing arguments in the Quran, anybody or any scientist who read it would become a Muslim, wouldn't they, not just people who are raised as Muslims that are conditioned not to suspect its propositions + a very, very few minority who convert (and then mostly convert back when they get over the psychological phase, whatever it is that caused them to convert.)
About the difference between the word din and religion, as I already said, they come from different etymological origins and historicities. (I actually read the etymological history of the word (din) in a very detailed study but my library is in Istanbul and I cant remember the details now, no need for Googling  ). But both words evolved into meaning what they mean when we say something such as "there are X many religions in the world" in an everyday basis. Most words for abstract notions are never one hundred percent identical, you can say the same about "ashk" and "love" also.
@Tsar
Self fulfilling prophicies not being rational (aka based on principles of reasoning) is not an Enlightenment taboo but rather a very self-evdient fact. If they were rational, they'd be truly universal, wouldnt they, not cultural. By religion's own declarance, the main source of your knowledge is revelation (vahiy in Islam), not reasoning. Gazali, directly teaches to avoid your own reasoning if it contradicts with Quran since human reasoning is limited and flawed yet God's word is divine. And that is indeed the poing of saying something is divine, isnt it? That it surpasses your capacity to transform or modify or judge, it comes from a superhuman (so beyond your reasoning) order and in case of Abrahamic religions, an omniscient God, who are you or your reasoning to question such a thing.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 11, 2016 01:00 PM |
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artu said:
The problem is you take Quran's suggestions as reality
Yes, but not because :
artu said:
people who are raised as Muslims that are conditioned not to suspect its propositions
This is assumption, mate 
No, listen. When you state that nothing neurological, sociological or historical supports such a claim, it is untrue, and even if it was, that wouldn't prove its inexistance.
artu said:
Humans have existed for about 200.000 years on this earth and they were not drawn to monotheism for about at least 195.000 years of it, neither are they drawn to it today, if they are raised as atheists or buddhists or hindus...
You can't know. Really, because there are no irrefutable proof that there wasn't monotheistic beliefs in that time. What are we really sure of about prehistoric eras? Very few things actually.
artu said:
scientist who read it would become a Muslim
There again, no. Some people were conviced in their lives that islam, religion or dīn was "right", true, yet didn't convert, because of reasons. How could a person with against-islam habits, cultures, behaviours abandon all that when they don't feel the "strenght" to do? The "energy" or "will" to do?
Now about dīn, stubborn artu, can't you see the irrefutable proofs?! lol. More seriously, what I tell you is that for islam, buddhism for example ain't a dīn, even if we use today the world dīn in the arab word to mean religion, this is a mere deformation. There have been thesis in the islamic theological studies to define with precision the meaning of dīn, which I tell you, in islam, doesn't mean what people today mean by religion.
Ashk and love ain't the same. I don't know for the turkish Ashk, but in arabic love is said Hobb, Ashk on the other hand is another state of love which basically mean being overwhelemed by thoughts about a person in your head. In arabic there 7 states or so of "love", and everyone is different from the other.
I understand what you wanted to say since your first example with Engineering and Handassa, it is indeed applyable to many words, but dīn is not in the same case.
I'll try to take a look at a book explaining the true meaning of a prayer in islam, and you'll see how that cheikh explained it, it might give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.
And this thinking :
artu said:
Self fulfilling prophicies not being rational (aka based on principles of reasoning) is not an Enlightenment taboo but rather a very self-evdient fact. If they were rational, they'd be truly universal, wouldnt they, not cultural. By religion's own declarance, the main source of your knowledge is revelation (vahiy in Islam), not reasoning. Gazali, directly teaches to avoid your own reasoning if it contradicts with Quran since human reasoning is limited and flawed yet God's word is divine. And that is indeed the poing of saying something is divine, isnt it? That it surpasses your capacity to transform or modify or judge, it comes from a superhuman (so beyond your reasoning) order and in case of Abrahamic religions, an omniscient God, who are you or your reasoning to question such a thing.
Is indeed applied in islam, because humans tend to take wrong thinking canals, that's why, basically, we created institutions to condition our resoning with what we see as good rules to follows, like logics, and so. Why no one is against school today? See what I mean?
@tSar
Yeah tSar I know, that's because western's history and relationship with religion is not the same we had in orient. We see religion as rational, mostly like said artu because we're conditionned to think so, but islam doesn't need that from anyone, someone that is a muslim because of such cultural reasons, by islamic definition, is not a muslim. You have to be personnaly conviced of what is written, inheriting islam in in fact never an option, it is a nonsense actually. This, again, is a side of the difference between the dīn and the religion. You have to see this principle out of the arab culture, since it's universal.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 11, 2016 02:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:42, 11 Dec 2016.
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Look, I don't know about Algeria but here, most Muslims live in an intellectual bell-jar where they are thought everything rational and scientific is in harmony with their religion, you sound like you are on that train, too. But I'm afraid that is just a delusion and that delusion is why the total number of books translated into Arabic in the last 1,000 years is fewer than those translated into Spanish in one year. Insisting "din" can't be irrational, unfortunately, doesn't produce magical results and it is very easy to see how that school of thought handicapped the intellectual development in Islamic countries. Most of them still live in the 18th century in terms of philosophical maturity with the exception of some very brave, few individuals.
About the rise of monotheism and ancient people's "fitrat," yes, I can now it, to quote myself from another thread:
Quote:
Contrary to your claims, monotheistic religions are studied today with a very secular perspective by a variety of social sciences and the norm is not to explain them by some super-natural entity but anthropological research. Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general take most of their stories/myths from earlier pagan beliefs, these transactions have been documented by a vast variety of scholar work and the very concept of monotheism is mostly seen as a by-product of early empires. There are still many primitive societies today, living in isolated parts of the world such as deep jungle zones, high mountain steps, distant locations over deserts etc. They are also studied and none of those communities, who are in oblivion when it comes to the mainstream Euroasian empire experience and its monarchic hierarchy, are monotheistic. They can not relate to such an abstraction. They all have animistic/shamanistic beliefs quite similar in character, their version of faith is much more directly involved in worshiping natural forces themselves.
To keep on, I will take the credibility of countless anthropological studies done with a scientific method to a 1400 year old book talking about genies, winged horses and containing universal, timeless verses such as "don't visit our prophet's house too early in the morning" or "wives of muhammed, don't get together and conspire against him or he'll divorce you and marry new virgins instead."
Lastly, saying "human mind is flawed but God's word isn't" is, of course, completely disregarding the fact that it is the same human mind which arbitrarily claims Islam is God's word, nothing else. So, Islam can be a flawed result of that human mind, too. Hence, itself can also be a mistake. Looking at the shape our Muslim countries are in, I'd say it is not only a mistake but one of the most tragic mistakes history has ever witnessed.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 11, 2016 04:28 PM |
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artu mate
You can't be serious when you say it is a mistake, because today's muslim nations' shape has nothing to do with dīn, by the past when they truly followed dīn's ideas and thoughts, they were shining on the world.
My friend, in the first centuries of islam, we were the greatest civilization in this world to be witnessed. Don't judge the arab or on a greater scale the muslim countries today, and say that it is islam that harmed them. This is wrong, today's muslim nations are far from following islam's philosophy. When you see how they behave, you understand why God abandonned them. They merely came back to the preislamic arab tribal thinking.
Arabs were the way they were, with their bad sides, way before islam. They used to cover our women, they used to put them in a secondary position compared to man, they used to fight themselves, tribe against tribe for centuries, they used to not develop any science besides our language. When islam came, everything changed for the best, and there the great civilization that made so big achievements in this world could be achieved. Without that islam choice, arabs would be known as a people who lives in the desert that none hears about. The roman emperor used to call them barbarians, and the persian kesra used to call every homeless poor an arab, a "va-nus-pieds" (naked feet, cheers tSar  ). However, with islam, we later kicked them both so hard that they never recovered.
Looking how the arabs rose in few years from the little transhumans (when you take your sheeps for a walk in the prairies) they were to an empire extending from India to France, achieving some many advances in every science, indeed makes me certain that this book is Godly, because only a divine deed could improve a people so much.
Do you really think a man like Saddam was muslim? Or Al Assad maybe? Or our Bouteflika? -His mum used to own a brothel by the way and he used to drink so much alcohol that he zigzagged like a butterfly. Do you think they put their fate between the hands of God and think when acting that it is accordinly to God's will, and it is a noble act or not? No they don't. Same with the people. It is not islam, that made these countries the way they are, cause if we were in the middle ages, you would witness the advancement and progress in these countries, thanks to islam. When muslim scientists were observing, describing and writing about the solar eclipse, in Europe and likely else in the world they used to scream and sing for the sun to come back. It is islam that allowed great inventions and scientific progress, such as mere kerosene distillation, optics, gas masks, cameras... and so on. Even psychology. Societies used to sentence mad people when they misbehaved, believing they were sentencing the demon that was possessing them, while today we know they are not responsible, well I should say : you know, because muslims know that since more than 1400 years. This, artu, is what the islamic faith gave birth to, in what was a desert people engraving just-born girls out of shame, because, yay, it is shameful for an arab to have a daughter. Islam is what allowed the arabs whom women used to shake their @$$3$ on totems to get to the level, and then surpass great european and asian civilizations.
Now what you are witnessing in these countries, is what happens when you "buy ignorance with guidance" as God said : Ishtaraw a 'thalālata bi 'l hudā. God knew how people (muslims) were going to mess up. You know mate, here in Algeria, where they pretend to respect islam commandments and make a pride of doing so, when a patient gets to be prepared for a surgery, they, after making him asleep, leave him naked on the table until the surgery begins, regardless of his/her gender. And since pretty much nothing is secured, "anyone" can enter the blocs sometimes. Just imagine a family member in that position. It is indeed shameful to witness such acts, leaving a sick person exposed to everybody's eyes, in a country, in a society, a whole ******* Umma that claims to be conservative, protective of prude and stuff. I'm sure that doesn't happen in European hospitals, yet it happens here in a so called muslim country. We have become what God has described as the most dangerous enemy to islam, mere hypocrites. This gives you an example of how much muslims we are. While western people, without even noticing are experiencing that dīn in a concrete and not theorical manner, by showing respect, considering the other, understanding... etc.
Islam ain't responsible, the dīn is pure and all that is built upon uprights and flavourishes. It's the "muslims" that are to be blamed.
I could give you some examples in qorān that might interest you, even proving to you its truth and "rationnaliyi", going against that quote of yours :
Quote:
Lastly, saying "human mind is flawed but God's word isn't" is, of course, completely disregarding the fact that it is the same human mind which arbitrarily claims Islam is God's word, nothing else. So, Islam can be a flawed result of that human mind, too. Hence, itself can also be a mistake.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 11, 2016 04:56 PM |
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AlHazin said:
by the past when they truly followed dīn's ideas and thoughts, they were shining on the world.
I am probably simplifying it but when everyone around has wooden clubs, the one with a saber owns them all. Two thousand years later, he still has the saber where most others have satellites around the planet + atomic weapons. Thus is not so wrong to suggest that sticking to same values and laws for thousands of years may equate stagnation.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2016 05:05 PM |
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Assad, Saddam, Putin are in fact soviet people. Godless people. Theres no God so we can do what we want. And we see genocide...
There is a lot of hippocrites in islamic countries. Its true. But they in fact belive in God but dont care about it.
Alcohol drinking, woman clothes etc. its not a religion but culture.
True religion is only your relation with God.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 11, 2016 05:06 PM |
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I'm sure the conquest of the most intellectually rich provinces of the ex-Roman empire didn't have anything to do with the arabs being so "great" when they ran out of their deserts.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 11, 2016 05:12 PM |
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Unfortunately, this line of thinking is exactly the reason why Islamic countries are intellectual deserts for centuries and witnessing people embracing such mentality (analyzing historical events by the will of God etc) sometimes brings me to the point to say people get what they deserve.
There are quite factual explanations on why the Islamic expansion was so fast in the early era, it had a lot to do with the state of weakness other empires were in at that particular age (standard vacuum of power), the fact that they transformed Roman mentality of "army of true believers" directly to the core of religion (Islam is partly militarized Christianity which is the Roman model that was born slightly before it, all Muhammed had to do was copy/paste) and of course that a book religion was a unifying factor among Arabs which were tribal. If you happen to explain the imperial success by "God's will," I wonder how you explain even more successful empires such as the pagan Roman Empire or the colonial Britain?
And I just hope you don't expect some apologist site/book claiming how Quran is so miraculous or how all the scientific facts were already written in it or how it is logically impossible to deny Ouran etc by cherry-picking some vague verse and interpreting it as far fetched as possible to convince anyone. As someone from a secular Muslim country who has seen it all when it comes to such non-sense, I can tell you that the logic used in those arguments is so absurdly far fetched, the arguments are so kindergarden level, they only serve two functions: Muslims who read nothing else mentally masturbate reading them by themselves and non-Muslims just pity the Muslims for going along with such abysmal material.
You want to believe your arguments because that's how faith works but for example, do you seriously believe "how could a person with against-islam habits, cultures, behaviors abandon all that when they don't feel the "strength" to do? The "energy" or "will" to do?" is the ACTUAL reason why most people don't convert when they read Quran? You read a book, you are convinced it is the message of the only true God that threatens you with eternal hell, yet, you just don't have the energy to change a few habits... Right! I did read the book, it's not even capturing on a literary level, most parts are written in the spirit and simplicity of a rent contract. Some say the original Arabic verses sound poetic, that may be, but poetic doesn't mean Godly.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2016 05:54 PM |
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It should be fairly obvious where religions come from which have one almighty deity that is MALE. Stories invented from men for men.
No one who believes in gender equality can believe any of that - or actually SHOULD believe any of that.
It's only a means for suppression, and that is exactly what has been happening under the spiritual rule of these religions.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 11, 2016 06:21 PM |
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Well, in Islam, in theory, Allah has no gender, but of course the whole content itself is overwhelmingly patriarchal. With Christians and the whole Trinity thing, I guess, it's a little more complicated.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2016 06:51 PM |
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In fact western civilisation is only there where is christianity. There is nothing in western which is non christian. Western way of thinking is christian. Its good lokking if we compare with another civilistations.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 11, 2016 06:55 PM |
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artu said:
With Christians and the whole Trinity thing, I guess, it's a little more complicated.
Not really, they are called the father, son, and holy ghost after all. Only the ghost's gender is unstated and given how it is supposedly one with the others it seems reasonable to guess what its gender would be.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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