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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 15, 2011 05:55 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 17:56, 15 Jul 2011.
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I don't disagree with most of that although it's very oversiplified. Then again, it doesn't say anywhere in there that evolution is a strictly random process so it doesn't support your point. Does it? Dude.
By the way, I didn't think you cared about credentials. So why are you so hung up on the importance of referencing alleged Ph.D. scientists?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 15, 2011 06:04 PM |
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Corribus, let it go, man, it's not going anywhere.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 06:06 PM |
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Smithey, it's certainly strange that someone who has such a low opinion of history (and is displaying a rather superficial knowledge at best, what constitutes the scientific method and the workings of historical research) is always arguing so vehemently on historical things. Ancient religions, fascism, evolution, cosmology... to name just a few that immediately come to mind.
Good to know, that you don't take this seriously and it's only fairy tales for you.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted July 15, 2011 07:01 PM |
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I love history, I love mythology, I love stories, dont have low opinion of them, simply take them for what they are - not necessary true...
Regarding, what was that ? Ancient religions, fascism, evolution, cosmology
If this is considered discussing ancient religions then I'm guilty as charged even though I claimed that Im by far not an expert and even though I asked to be taught a thing or two if indeed there is such evidence (so I can use it for my future devious plans)
Fascism me ? have no idea what you are talking about
Evolution ? you mean the thread about gene modifications because that would be a bit reaching and also a bit irrelevant to the topic at hand
Cosmology ? Unless you are talkin about the fact that I claimed it would be statistically improbable that we are the only living creatures in the universe within the thread about little green men.... then you must be confusing me with someone else
Certainly see no relevance to any of them but hey, as it seems we have something in common, I love fairy tales while you create fairy tales about members
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 07:14 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 19:35, 15 Jul 2011.
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Evolution is triggered when a species must adapt to changing circumstances or face death.
Often creatures will adapt a trait that will allow them to survive while the majority of their species dies out. This trait gets passed on to the surviving population through genetics via reproduction. Antibacterial agents force this evolution as we wipe out 99% of bacterial agents, the surviving 1% each time grows more resistant and repopulates into the spaces where the non-resistant strains once lived. The fact that a bacterium could be identical millions of years ago mean one thing, they haven't faced any serious challenges between that time and recently. The next generations of survivors may have only a small fraction of them with the trait, but it will rise higher over time as more and more generations are wiped out and the ones with the recessant trait survive.
See (Wall Street Journal)
This is a scenario that is repeated in larger organisms too. For example Fence Lizards in the American south were largely killed off because they would sit still when attacked by the fire ants and get eaten alive. The ones that survived however Developed a freakish dance that kept the ants away and passed that on to their decendants. As the ands creep northwards slowly, the lizards with the survival mechanism follow and slowly replace the ones eaten.
Interesting huh?
Proof that evolution does in fact exist. I'm not sure why anybody would argue against it, it's not even a scientific theory that is incompatible with religion.
Who says that God did not design the creatures to have this exact adaptation method over the course of his era long days? Creation science isn't really needed in school because Evolution doesn't even prove or disprove anything religious to begin with. Why should people care unless they are (without knowing) following somebody using evolution as an anti-theistic straw man. Certainly there are athiests that foolishly use Evolution is a form of proof against the existance of a god, but that's just not how it works.
People on both sides of that battle simply do not know what they are talking about, so we get ridiculous battles wasting time and precious school resources that could be better used teaching our kids how to learn, think and analyze. Religion is best taught in the home anyway. If you have a teacher in a classroom teaching religious dogma, who is to say they won't pervert that message? Just like religion and politics don't mix. Some corrupt Washington Bureaucrat claims they are on the side of god and does a million things that are against their own supposed beliefs but they god ignored because like all politicians, (s)he's prostituted him or herself for votes of people who will always side with their party no matter the evidence that they should be doing the contrary. It's endemic in the entire political system. The corrupt politician holds himself up as some herald of their religion and casts all people of the same faith in a bad light with his misdeeds just because his voice is the loudest... it's a shame (and a sham).
This is all an argument that shouldn't be happening is the first place , mostly because there are far more important things to worry about than controversy drummed up by two supposed opposites that actually (if you look at the history) generally vote on the exact same laws and enact the exact same measures.
I think your country is overdue for a third party with some actual power. My own country recently had an upset where the Liberal Party (the party that never before was worse off than second most powerful) isn't even the official opposition anymore. For the first time the Conservatives are the majority, the NDP (Lefties) are the opposition and the Liberals (Centrists, remember it's a party name not a policy) are just bystanders. (The Conservatives have been a majority before in the past many times, but the big news is the NDP and Liberals)
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 15, 2011 08:04 PM |
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@ Elodin
See this
What came before the Big Bang?
The standard Big Bang model is singular at the time of the Big Bang, t = 0. This means that one cannot even define time, since spacetime is singular. In some models like the chaotic or perpetual inflation favored by Linde, the Big Bang is just one of many inflating bubbles in a spacetime foam. But there is no possibility of getting information from outside our own one bubble. Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
There were 5 major extinction events on earth.If the creatures did not evolve,how could they have survived the aftermath?
Also,there were more humanoid species on earth than homo sapiens.THey went extinct.Intelligent design?
Diseases can be in the from of genetic disorder.
Religion claimes that earth was specifically created for humans,or so I understand.We can use animals and so on...Why did God create infectius agents in the dark ages?Those infectious agents exterminated 70 to 80% of human populations,and they were christian believers.
Genetic disorder is a sign of imperfect design.The only perfect "God" created on this world is perfect imperfection.Look around you and you will see.
If god made plans for us,how can we have free will when our future is set within a plan?Paradox?
Most of your links show the possbliity of human failure to adress issues in evolution.
Ie,if a chimp has more DNA than humans,then the 98% simmilarity fact should never have been named a s a fact.Its clearly that they are comparing grapes with oranges there...
Even if apes are not our ancestors,its still does not disprove that evolution exists.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2011 08:38 PM |
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Quote: I love history, I love mythology, I love stories, dont have low opinion of them, simply take them for what they are - not necessary true...
And that's different with "real" sciences?
Anyway, I apologize if may memory didn't serve me correct about fascism and so on.
But you certainly wrote a lot about muslims, the burqa, US politics (paast) in the Near East, and the general historic background.
If YOU write about these things, you certainly present them as fact.
Truth is not a simple phrase, and whether something is science or scientific or not has nothing to do with the certainty of the available data. One aspect of all disciplines that deal with past things, whether it's HUMAN history, evolutionary history, planetary history, cosmic history or even individual history is the difficulty of obtaining data.
Take the dinosaurs. How COMPLETE can the picture be that we've formed about the time from over 200 million BC to 60 million BC, a time span of 160 million years? How many species will have lived and died (and become extinct) in that time? WE can know only from those that somehow left something. How many MORE species may have existed? 100 times more? A thousand times?
But just because we cannot reconstruct the FULL picture, does that mean every effort to do so cannot be real science?
Same with human history. Archaelogical findings - as with dino skeletons - are delivering a very big part of the knowledge we have about ancient times.
And historians know about the problems.
Take for example one of the 7 ancient wonders of the world, the hanging gardens of Babylon.
Whilea number of Greek historians describe the gardens, they are not mentioned in the Babylonian Chronicles, so there are actually 3 possibilities here: 1) Real and Babylonian; 2) Poetic fiction; 3) Real but somewhere else (Niniveh, as a current theory claims).
This IS science. There is data, there is info, there are theories based on the data. Truth is undecidable lest new data can be gathered.
So when it's true that you love history - how can you belittle it and claim it's not a science?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 15, 2011 08:47 PM |
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Quote: Sounds cool, but names of historians is hardly evidence, matter of fact from what I know of historians, on every one that claims A there are a bunch of others who will claim B, ancient history is so distorted and twisted that chances of you proving something as such is the same as trying to prove that there is a god or proving that there isnt one...
Historians most of the time make educated guesses based on little to no data while trying to glue pieces into a story which can be rather far from the truth...
Just saying that history is 90% story telling and 10% science
Initially I had the intention to reply to you but after reading this I don't think there is any point. For you the history apparently is just an adapted version of telling fairy-tales. Granted, it's not physics, it can't prove many things for certain but it can certainly provide fairly good explanations for many things and not because some historian has too much imagination. Moreover, your whole "argument" is "but wait a minute, that's not what they told me at school, you can't be right" which is... well, shallow. No offense. I think you really need to check what the history and the archeology are about because at the moment you are speaking from the position of some disinterested bystander who thinks that he knows it all.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted July 15, 2011 10:10 PM |
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JJ, in order to prevent us reaching philosophical grounds and history defines us all etc, you are right, history is a science
Z, I say I cant recall all of the facts regarding persian mythology hence I'll take your word for it on that topic, then I say this is what I know however I am everything besides being 100% sure and I will be more than glad if you could provide me with evidence that states otherwise on the other topic, you on the other hand act as if everything you say is pure gold.... eventually somehow you manage to deduce that I am the one acting as if I knew it all The irony is quite funny...
I'll keep being "shallow", you keep taking everything historians sell you as if it were the ultimate truth, all is good
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 15, 2011 11:23 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:27, 15 Jul 2011.
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What ultimate truths? You assume that the Jews had one god from the very beginning while the entire world around them and with which they interacted quite a lot evolves in a completely different way and when someone tells is that this both makes no sense and there are a lot of evidences against it, you act in a manner not very different from the religious zealots who prefer not to listen or think no matter what. You are not even bringing any evidences in defense of your position, you just keep saying "that's not what they told me". What the hell?!
As for the Persian thing - OK, here you are, but I warn you that historians came up to these conclusions, there are unfortunately no known survivors from these times who can tell the actual story:
The exact time when Zoroaster made the Mazdaism the religion that it is know today is unknown but it is no later than VII century BC (with upper limit going centuries back into the second millennium BC and according to some - even further). What is certain that it is one of the oldest Indo-European religions and like every other religion it went through certain changes until it finally crystallized. Zoroaster is its main prophet and figure but not exactly its founder. You can find pieces of it in Iran and India even during the 2nd millennium BC before it became a system with a well-shaped core. It certainly became quite influential - and quite likely dominant teaching - during the reign of the Achaemenids who created the Persian Empire as we know it. Prior to the rise of the Persians, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquers the greater part of the Middle East, including Israel, and deports a large part of its population, following the principle established by the Assyrians that when the people are detached from their homeland, it is far easier to break their desire for resistance.
It is uncertain how many Jews were deported to Babylon but it is mostly agreed that at least their elite - i.e. the leaders - were there. That's the so-called Babylonian captivity. There is a theory which is not 100% proven but yet has many things to support it - that this was the turning point for the Jewish religion. During the captivity the deported Jews were under many foreign influences, including that of the Zoroastrianism which is ultimately believed to have played part in their liberation when the Persians conquered Babylon (for example, Cyrus' decision to free the Jews is supposed to have at least partially been affected by the Zoroastrian teachings, although I suppose that this is mostly the propaganda explanation). According to the same historians that you don't believe in, all ancient documents prior to that period speak of Yahveh as of some normal deity for the Middle East with no great ambitions apart from protecting and ruling its nation which did not have many of the attributes which it received after the captivity, namely - universality (not just one of the gods but THE God, the uncreated one who created everything - which is primary description of Ahura Mazda), omniscience (same story, again belonging to Ahura Mazda), omnipotence (not exactly belonging to Ahura Mazda in this case as Angra Mainyu is considered powerful as well, even though in the end he'll be defeated) and so on. More importantly, the Jewish religion gets extended in areas that previously were completely alien to it - it now involves the concept of the Judgment Day and the Messiah which, you guessed it, are too part of the Zoroastrianism. There are actually a few Zoroastrian Messiahs with the most important one - who will lead the battle against Angra Mainy and lead to the establishment of the heavenly rule of Ahura Mazda - being Saoshyant who is supposed to be born by a maiden, etc. Anyway, the thing is that shortly after the captivity the Judaic texts are getting heavily edited on all fronts and the result is a religion where old characters receive new functions and new characters appear. Once again - the documents prior to the captivity differ significantly from the documents after it and that's why it is believed that the Zoroastrian infiltration began during it or when it ended.
This is a very short summary of a long and very dynamic story with many participants (cool, ain't it?). If you don't like it, that's your business. If you claim that it's wrong though, I'll ask you to prove your point.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted July 16, 2011 12:06 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 00:09, 16 Jul 2011.
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Not to listen or think ? They told me so ?
WTH are you talking about at all, I said that far as I know what you are saying isn't correct, I also said I will be more than willing to listen to your evidence because basically I would prefer your version...
1. They lived and interacted with people who believed in many gods hence they probably shared their beliefs is a ridiculous theory IMO that proves nothing.
2. Some historians believe yada yada yada is also not a proof as there are other historians who believe otherwise
3. Some so called jewish bodies were found with objects which imply that jews worshiped other gods also doesnt prove that they werent heretics.
So, once again if you can provide me with substantial evidence like ancient hebrew writings or something of a kind that were discovered and that proves original hebrews as dudes who believed in many gods, I will actually thank you for it, if theories with little to no evidence is all you can bring to the table it's no different than me quoting their bible... Makes sense ?
Hmm, that was a fascinating story (really no sarcasm), however parts of it did sound like a religious book of a sort instead of a documentation of historians from that era, and the question I raise is, if indeed there are documents that claim all that how come its still considered just a theory by some historians and a false one by others ? I mean if there are original documents proving it as you say why is there any controversy ? Or are you claiming that it is a widely accepted truth by majority of historians worldwide ?
Not arguing, sincerely asking
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 16, 2011 10:36 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:40, 16 Jul 2011.
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Quote: 1. They lived and interacted with people who believed in many gods hence they probably shared their beliefs is a ridiculous theory IMO that proves nothing.
2. Some historians believe yada yada yada is also not a proof as there are other historians who believe otherwise
3. Some so called jewish bodies were found with objects which imply that jews worshiped other gods also doesnt prove that they werent heretics.
I find it difficult to understand what in your opinion will prove anything. To begin with - you choose to believe the historians (which historians actually, care to name them?) who say that the Jews have always been monotheists which is, frankly, a stance which I have never encountered in any serious literature on the matter. Why do you believe them and not those who say yada yada yada? You have problems with people who say yada yada yada?
Once again, it's not only about buried bodies. It's also about texts which are found not only in Israel. And about the general picture of the region during this period. And even about the common sense which says that there is no way to develop something completely unique when you are living in a transit area with neighbours which are often much more powerful than you and cultures which inevitable mix with yours and to some extent shape it. Why would this happen everywhere else but not in Israel? It's almost like you are saying that there are indeed the chosen of God and thus one of the kind.
As for the ancient Hebrew writings and whatnot (like this is the only way to gain knowledge of those times) - I don't know what you are asking for exactly. I don't have any myself, I don't know Hebrew, let alone ancient Hebrew and I have to rely on what some people have translated and summarized in their studies, just like the vast majority of the humans on this planet. I already gave you some authors to check and sources to look at, hopefully they aren't intentionally lying just to look original and non-mainstream.
Quote: Hmm, that was a fascinating story (really no sarcasm), however parts of it did sound like a religious book of a sort instead of a documentation of historians from that era, and the question I raise is, if indeed there are documents that claim all that how come its still considered just a theory by some historians and a false one by others ? I mean if there are original documents proving it as you say why is there any controversy ? Or are you claiming that it is a widely accepted truth by majority of historians worldwide ?
Not arguing, sincerely asking
There are NO historians at that time, it's funny that you even put it this way. Herodotus, who is considered the first historian and who is hardly a model of the perfect professional lives during V century BC. What I have described above are events which take place mainly during VI century BC and have their roots centuries before that. You don't really believe that some people have thoroughly documented all these events in a systematic fashion like some later annalists would do, do you? What you have as sources from these times can be likened to the pieces of a puzzle that you have to put together - say royal edicts, scriptures and wall-paintings on buildings, burial objects, various writings with various purposes, including such describing trivial everyday matters and so on. As usual, when a pattern is discovered, it is further examined and a theory is built around it. There is nothing proven for certain but there are many things which are more or less set in stone nowadays because they follow a confirmed model and there are no evidences against them.
As for how wide-spread this theory is - I don't know exactly but I haven't seen any real objections against it or at least against the principle around which it is built - that the Jewish religion did not evolve into what later become the Christianity on its own. In essence this means that no matter how many people support it, those who oppose it do not seem to be many, if there are any of them at all. I don't understand why the quantity is so important to you though, it's like if one of the groups is twice larger than the other it will automatically become the more reliable one.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2011 08:49 PM |
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@Zenofex
You continue to make false statement after false statement about the Jewish people. I already showed from the Jewish writings of the Old Testament that they were monotheists long before the Babylonian captivity. Most of the Old Testament was written prior to the Babylonian captivity which blows your theory that that they got their ideas about monotheism from Babylon out of the water. It is very interesting that you have linked to NO source material for your claims.
Zoroaster was not born until around the time of the Babylonian captivity by the way. He may have borrowed from the Jews but the Jews did not borrow from him.
Clicky
Quote:
It is said by some critics that:
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and "immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason."
He was baptized in a river.
In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
He began his ministry at age 30.
Zoroaster baptized with water, fire, and "holy wind."
He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
He had a sacred cup or grail.
He was slain.
His religion had a eucharist.
He was the "Word made flesh."
Zoroaster's followers expect a "second coming" in the virgin-born Saoshyant or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.
Some of the things listed above are actually true and confirmed by scholarly literature -- and a couple of them come from sources that Zoroastrian scholars suggest go back to a source predating Christianity. But that's the mythicists getting 10 out of 100 on a test where before they got zeroes, or claiming a "100% increase" in a salary that went from one dollar a year to two dollars. Some of these I find no confirmation at all for; others come from sources that are way, way too late -- even as late as the 10th century! Our main source for details on Zoroaster is the Avesta, a collection of sacred texts which was put in writing between 346-360 AD [Herz.ZW, 774] and of which we have manuscript copies only as early as the 13th century [Wat.Z, 56 -- and note to conspiracy theorists: blame Alexander the Great and the Muslims for the destruction of Zoroastrian literature]. Some of the material probably comes from a time before the Christian era, but most of this is reckoned to be hymns and some basic information [Rose.IZ, 17] that was part of the oral tradition. The rest seems likely to have been added later, and for good reason, as Rose notes [ibid., 27]:
The incorporation of certain motifs into the Zoroastrian tradition in the ninth century CE could indicate the conscious attempt of the priesthood to exalt their prophet in the eyes of the faithful who may have been tempted to turn to other religions.
In other words, if we see a "Jesus-like" story in these texts, especially this late, we have a right to suspect borrowing -- but in exactly the opposite way that critics suppose!
A key issue seems to be, "When did Zoroaster actually live?" Interestingly enough there has even been a few "Zoroaster-mythers" who said (as Bultmann said of Jesus!) "nothing can be said" of the historical Zoroaster [Rose.IZ, 15]. J. M. Robertson, who also stumped for a mythical Jesus and a mythical Buddha, took up the Zoroaster-myth (to which a Zoroastrian scholar responded, "I have myself indeed divined and published the argument by which Mr. Robertson's successors fifty years hence will irrefutably prove him a myth") [Wat.Z, 11]. One Zoroastrian scholar did go along with the idea eventually, but died before he could justify his position. At any rate, most of the sources I consulted prefer a date around 600 B.C., though one scholar has suggested a date as early as 1700 BC [Yam.PB, 414].
Does indeed Persia have anything to do with Jerusalem? Zoroaster's faith had an idea that sounds like, and probably is, bodily resurrection, though it is most clear only in AD-dated texts. Did the Jews "steal" this idea while under the thumb of the Persians? There is no direct evidence either way; the Persians may have got the ideas from the Jews, and from Ezekiel or Daniel.
We'll see some other general ideas they have in common as well. But in terms of borrowing, no evidence exists -- one way or the other, and a determination depends on the interpretations and datings of Zoroastrian texts. Zoroastrian scholars offer no consensus on the subject [Yam.PB, 461]: Yamauchi cites one scholar who believes that the Jews borrowed, another that says there is no way to tell who borrowed, and yet another who says that the borrowing was the other way. There is also a great difference in approach: The Jews buried their dead, while the Zoros exposed their dead.
Others argue that the Jewish idea of Satan is borrowed from Zoroastrianism. But Satan appears in Job, a very early book, and is nothing like the evil god Ahriman, who is a dualistic equal to Ohrmazd the good god, rather than a subordinate. Finally, it is significant that while the OT used plenty of Persian loanwords for governmental matters, they did not use any for religion [Yam.PB, 463]. The most we find is, I am told, the name of a Persian demon in the Book of Tobit!
And so, right to the list, shall we go?
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and "immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason." It's hard to quantify this one -- the Avesta (note again, a late source, later than Christianity) refers to a "kingly glory" that was handed onward from one ruler to the next; this glory resided in Zoroaster's mother for about 15 years, including during the time she was married to Zoroaster's dad, Pourushaspa. It seems that a human father was still needed for Zoroaster [Jack.ZP, 18, 24] and that this "ray" was merely for the infusion of Zoroaster's spirit, not his body.
(A reader has added the point that it is not correct to use "Immaculate conception" to refer to Christ's virgin birth, as seems to be the implication here; rather it refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine that the Mary was born without original sin. It is only somewhat recently that some people have erroneously used it to refer to Christ's virgin birth.)
He was baptized in a river. I can find no reference to this at all. There is a story of Zoraster receiving a revelation from an archangel while on the banks of a river, which Zoroaster later crosses [Jack.ZP, 41], but that is as close as I have found.
In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. Here's what I have on this: At age 7, Zoroaster was placed under the care of a wise man; as he was raised he had disputations with the magi -- the practitioners of occult and magic, necromancy, and sorcery. These were "put to confusion" by him [Jack.ZP, 29, 31]. Later he also made sport of the wise men of King Vishtapsa, who became one of his major converts [Jack.ZP, 61-2], and these wise men plotted against him, accusing him of being a necromancer. Zoroaster was imprisoned, but got out when he helped heal the king's favorite horse by making its legs grow back. Zoroaster was clearly a prodigy, but in quite a different area than Jesus.
He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. This one is true, sort of -- after 10 years (not 40 days!) of visionary experiences, a sub-demon named J. Buiti was sent by Ahriman (the functional devil-equivalent in this context -- he didn't come himself) "to deceive and overthrow the holy messenger." [Jack.ZP, 51]
This temptation involved an attempt to persuade Zoroaster to renounce the "good religion" of Mazdeism and worship evil spirits -- no bread to stones, no leaps from towers, just talking back and forth with Zoro quoting Persian scriptures. Jackson and Waterhouse indicate no location for this; it could have been the wilderness, but it might have been MacDonald's in Tehran. The story has some roots to the 2nd century BC [Wat.Z, 54] but it bears at best a superficial similarity to the temptation of Jesus.
He began his ministry at age 30. This one is absolutely right [Jack.ZP, 16], but rendered meaningless in this context by two things. First, it comes from the Pahlavi literature, which is post-Christian by several centuries, and second, thirty is the age at which Iranian men come to Wisdom. [WL, 54] The ancients gave as much regard to the "big three-oh" as we did -- there is no copycatting here.
Zoroaster baptized with water, fire, and "holy wind." This is kind of odd, because this would equate with a "John the Baptist myth," not a Christ myth! Even so, I find no evidence of any of these at all. Zoroaster did have an association with sacred fires [Jack.ZP, 98] that were part of the fire-cults in three particular temples, and seemed to have taken a part in preserving the fire-cult (which liked to keep the fires going, sort of like our eternal flame at Arlington Cemetery) but he did not "baptize" with and of these things.
He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. "Cast out" is a little vague for a description here -- Zoro apparently didn't like demons, but I find no record saying he cast them out of people as Jesus did: This was one of several abilities Zoro had, including driving out pestilence, witches, and sorcerers. There is a record of Zoroaster healing a blind man, but this comes from a document dated to the tenth century AD -- and he did it by dropping juice from a plant into the blind man's eyes. [Jack.ZP, 94]
He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. As this goes, it is true, but not all of these terms have the same meaning in Zoroastrianism that they do in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Only "resurrection" is a good match here -- Zoroaster's faith taught that after judgment, the "dead will rise up" and men will become "not-aging, not-dying, not-decaying, not-rotting" [Herz.ZW, 299]. It's resurrection, it sounds like, though described by negatives.
In terms of the other stuff, there aren't a lot of similarities [Wat.Z, 95, 96, 98, 102]. Salvation was by works alone; there was "practically no place for repentance or pardon:" and "no doctrine of atonement." There is some issue about the fate of the wicked; one account says they will be tormented three days, then return to do good deeds; another source says they will be annihilated. There is an essential equivalent to Heaven and Hell, but it wouldn't be too hard to create such a concept independently one way or the other based on the simple assumption that people will get what they deserve.
Judgment would be made by committee: the Persian Mithra and two other gods are on the panel. If you aren't sure where you might go, word is that Zoroaster himself will come and plead for you. A concept of purgatory appears in a Zoroastrian work of the 5th-6th century, and later Zoroastrianism did develop rites of repentance and expiation, contrary to Zoroaster's recorded teachings. There's an apocalypse planned to be sure: a flood of molten metal to burn off the wicked. Zoroastrian eschatology comes for the most part, however, from those late AD sources [Yam.PB, 465].
A reader also sent us this note:
"The case for a judeo-christian dependence on Zoroastrianism in its purely eschatological thinking is quite different. And not at all convincing, for apart from a few hints in the Gathas which we shall shortly be considering and a short passage in Yasht 19.80-90 in which a deathless existence in body and soul at the end of time is affirmed, we have no evidence as to what eschatological ideas the Zoroastrians had in the last four centuries before Christ. The eschatologies of the Pahlavi books, though agreeing in their broad outlines, differ very considerably in detail and emphasis; they do not correspond at all closely to the eschatological writings of the intertestimentary period nor to those of St. Paul and the apocalypse of St. John. They do, however, agree that there will be a general resurrection of the body as well as soul, but this idea would be the natural corollary to the survival of the soul as a moral entity, once that had been accepted, since both Jew and Zoroastrian regarded soul and body as being two aspects, ultimately inseperable, of the one human personality." -- R.C. Zaehner, The Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism. G.P. Putnam's Sons. New York. 1961. Pg. 57
Note especially the implication that an idea of resurrection could have come up independently in the Zoroastrians because they shared the Jewish perception of totality of body and spirit.
He had a sacred cup or grail. If he did, the Zoroastrian scholars don't know about it. Not that it matters -- the idea of Jesus having a sacred cup or grail is a product of medieval legend, not the Bible!
He was slain. Zoroaster was indeed said to be slain, but his death isn't vested with any significance. There are a couple of stories about his death. A late story has him struck by lightning, but that is from a post-Christian source. An account that is generally accepted has Zoroaster killed at age 77 by a wizard/priest. There are no details on this death, other than that it occurred in a temple. A nice story from the 17th century has Zoroaster whipping out rosary beads and throwing them at his assassin as he dies. [Jack.ZP, 124-9]
Either way, Zoroaster's murder has neither the invested significance nor the surrounding similarities of the death of Jesus. There is also a third account that has him killed in battle as a king! However, none of this may matter as Herzfeld, after analysis of the data, concludes that the "murder of Zoroaster is entirely unhistorical" for the stories of it are all in late sources as much as 1400 years after his time, and had he truly been murdered, it would "resound loudly and persistently in history" before that [Herz.ZW, 241, 845].
His religion had a eucharist. Not that the Zoroastrian scholars are aware of, though I would not doubt that the Z people had communal meals like every religious and political group in ancient times. And since there is no atonement in Zoroastrianism, how can there be a Eucharist? The closest I can find to this is the fact that in later Zoroastriaism, there is a rite involving the intoxicating haoma plant, which may or may not have been known of and/or endorsed by Zoroaster [Yam.PB, 418] and involves a daily rite of consumption with no "eucharistic" significance (i.e., it is not Zoroaster's body or blood, etc.).
There is also a ceremony calls the yasna or veneration, which does involve the use of bread (topped with clarified butter) and a drink made from ephedra, pomegranate twigs, and milk (strained through a filter made from the hairs of a white bull), but evidence indicates that this ritual was established as part of liturgical reform in Zoroastrianism in the post-Christian era [Yam.PB, 449-50].
He was the "Word made flesh." Not that the scholars know about it, either.
Zoroaster's followers expect a "second coming" in the virgin-born Saoshyant or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age. I have been able to confirm that this is true to some extent: a return is expected in 2341 CE, to start a golden age; the details on age 30 I have found nowhere. Whether this future Deliverer would indeed be Zoroaster himself again is indeed something that has been interpreted, but later Zoroastrian texts think that the person will be of the line of Zoroaster, not Zoroaster himself. [Wat.Z, 94-5]
A vague doctrine of a future redeemer does appear in texts dated as early as the 400s BC, but only later (9th cent. AD) texts go into detail, reporting three world saviors -- "virgin born" in a sense: It seems that some of Zoro's sperm is being preserved in a lake in Iran, and that three virgins bathing in the lake over the next few thousand years are going to get a big surprise as a result. Virgin born, perhaps, but not virgin conceived. The last of these three guys will eradicate all disease and death and usher in the final victory of good over evil.
And that, folks, is about the size of it -- there are more convincing parallels to Jesus in Dragonball Z than there are to the big Persian Z.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2011 09:08 PM |
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The Avesta is the Zoroastrian sacred text.
Oldest Avesta manuscript
Quote:
The following are the oldest manuscripts:
Yasna and Vispered dated 1323 CE- Khordeh Avesta dated 1352 CE -Vendidad dated 1245 CEآEach manuscript had the name/s of the scribe/s and the date/s written at the end. Some of the manuscripts which have been preserved have their begining and ending pages missing. The Iranian and Indian styles of writing were different and even if we do not have the names now, we can distinguish between the two.
Clicky
Quote:
According to Egyptian mythology, Horus was originally believed to be the son of Ra and Hathor and the
husband/brother of Isis. Later he was seen as the son of Osiris and Isis once Hathor and Isis were merged into
one being. Horus was considered the sky, sun, and moon god represented by a man with the head of falcon.
Zoroaster was an Iranian prophet and founder of Zoroastrianism. Though the dating of his life is heatedly
debated, he is believed to be a contemporary of King Hystaspes, making a 6th century B.C. dating most likely.
Evidence is shown throughout the Avesta which mentions personal conversations between the two. One example
is as follows:
"'I am a pious man, who speaks words of blessing,' thus said Zarathushtra to the young king Vishtaspa 'O young
king Vishtaspa! [I bless thee]" Vishtasp Yasht, 1
VIRGIN BIRTH There is no mention of a virgin birth in any Zoroastrian text nor do the events of Zoroaster's
birth seem to have any relation to Jesus. The actual accounts regarding his birth are given below:
Version 1: Zoroaster's parents (Dukdaub and Pourushasp) were a normal married couple who conceive a son
through natural means. Zoroaster is described as laughing when he is born as well as having a visible, glowing
aura about him:
"[Zoroaster] had come into the posterity...who are Pourushasp, his father, and Dukdaub who is his mother. And
also while he is being born and for the duration of life, he produced a radiance, glow, and brilliance from the
place of his own abode..." Denkard, Bk 5 2:1-2
Version 2: In a later text, an embellishment is added by Zoroastrian followers. We are told Ahura Mazda (the
main deity of Zoroastrianism) implants the soul of Zoroaster into the sacred Haoma plant and through the plant's
milk Zoroaster is born.
TEMPTED IN THE WILDERNESS Zoroaster is also said to have been tempted by an evil spirit to renounce his
faith with the promise of receiving power over the nations. However, this story is found in the Vendidad, the
Zoroastrian text which lists the laws regarding demons, penned sometime between 250 - 650 A.D. (centuries
after the life of Jesus):
"Again to him said the Maker of the evil world, Angra Mainyu: 'Do not destroy my creatures, O holy
Zarathushtra... Renounce the good Religion of the worshippers of Mazda, and thou shalt gain such a boon as...the
ruler of the nations.'" Vendidad Fargad 19:6
SEED OF A WOMAN The Christian Old Testament refers to the savior of mankind being born of a woman. Critics
claim this concept was stolen from Zoroaster whose name means seed of the woman. Apparently no one
investigated this claim because the name is an ancient Iranian compound of zareta (old, feeble) and ustra
(camel). His original Persian name Zarathushtra (Zoroaster is the Greek/English translation) literally translates as
owner of old feeble camels. Source and Source Zoroaster was also allegedly called The Word Made Flesh and
The Living Word but no such references exist.
MINISTRY BEGAN AT 30 Like Jesus, Zoroaster was believed to begin his teachings at the age of 30. Though
Zoroaster technically came out of seclusion at the age of 30 to begin his teachings, he was shunned and ignored
for 12 years until his religion was accepted by King Vishtaspa. Jesus, on the other hand, attracted followers
instantly. Zoroaster was believed to be killed around the age of 77 while Jesus was killed at the age of 33.
Furthermore this fact about Zoroaster is not mentioned until later texts dated around 225 A.D. (almost 200 years
after Christianity had already been in circulation).
EUCHARIST Though critics claim the concept of a bread-wine communion originated with Zoroaster, no such
celebration exists. Though priests accepted sacrifices of meat, flowers, milk, bread, fruit, and sacred water,
there was no symbolic communion performed by Zoroastrian followers other than drinking the juice from the
sacred Haoma plant (but this did not hold the body-blood significance of the Christian Eucharist). Source
RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS Critics point out the similarities between the basic belief structure of Zoroastrianism
and Christianity. Superficially, there are many correlations between the two until they are further examined:
Both teach a spiritual battle between good and evil. True, but this is true for almost all religions. The chief
god of Zoroastrianism is Ahura Mazda while the chief God of the Judeo-Christian belief is Yahweh. The
arch enemy of Zoroastrianism is Angra Mainyu whereas in Christianity he is known as Satan.
Zoroastrianism also teaches the dualism of both figures whereas Christianity teaches the subordination of
Satan to God.
Salvation. Zoroastrianism teaches all men will be judged according to their works at the final judgment.
Christianity teaches men are judged according to their acceptance of Christ.
Judgment. Zoroastrianism teaches all men are eventually saved. Christianity teaches the fate of the sinful
is eternal.
Monotheism. Zoroaster originally taught the concept of one god but Zoroastrian priests, in order to make
the religion more enticing, later added several other deities.
Resurrection of all men. Zoroastrian teaches the eventual resurrection of all humans at the end of the
age. Christianity also teaches this, but this for the judgment of souls and the reign of the righteous in the
millennial kingdom.
HE WAS SLAIN FOR MANKIND'S SINS It is believed Zoroaster was killed at the age of 77 after being
slaughtered on one of his temple altars by Turanian invaders (although this is debated). Regardless, his death
was never believed to atone for sin or to hold any other spiritual purpose.
IN CONCLUSION Most Zoroastrian texts were written centuries after the Christian texts. The accounts of
Zoroaster's life that existed before the time of Jesus (the Gathas) consist mainly of vague poetic writings which
say very little about his life. The incredible acts later associated with him were added by Zoroastrian priests
wishing to make the religion more appealing.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 16, 2011 10:19 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:31, 16 Jul 2011.
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Elodin, I'm totally not interested in your interpretations of the Bible and generally in your interpretations at all. Just to point some of the fallacies which you claim to be facts or Idontknowwhat:
Quote: Zoroaster was not born until around the time of the Babylonian captivity by the way. He may have borrowed from the Jews but the Jews did not borrow from him.
It is not certain when Zoroaster was born so if you have some source who says that - here you are, he's born in year X, then it's most probably some wannabe trying to look interesting. If he's a historical figure at all and not a legendary one, his birth is believed to be between XIII century BC and VII century BC (some say VI century but they are the minority), usually placed between VIII and X century BC. Do your homework.
Second - the Zoroastrianism is at its peak during the reign of the Sassanids which begins in II century AD, that's its "restoration". Then it gets codified in a way similar to the codification of the Christianity during the Council of Nicaea and - again similarly - the new "official" ideology is violently enforced. Go figure why most of the texts are from that period. This tradition however clearly predates the Christianity and much of the Jewish religion as the Mazdaism does not appear just out of a sudden and not even with Zoroaster - it's like saying that Yahveh's religion starts with Jesus. In any case, there are relatively clear evidences that the Zoroastrianism was very well-spread in the Achaemenid Empire which appears prior to the Babylonian captivity and ends it. All the nonsense put together in your second post comes from some pro-Christian wannabe-"scholar" who doesn't seem to have bothered with the reading too much or just assembled the regular one-sided interpretation so the likes of you can believe it without activating even a single brain cell (if available).
Just one more thing:
Quote: Others argue that the Jewish idea of Satan is borrowed from Zoroastrianism. But Satan appears in Job, a very early book
"A very early book" is a misleading trap for laymen. The book of Job is dated between XVI and VI or even V century BC which is a huge gap and there is no clear telling when exactly it was written. Furthermore, it will be hard to prove that it was never edited to include this "Satan" even if it was not present earlier, just like many writings had been edited throughout the years.
Anyway, next time quote some real scholars, not some "apologetic encyclopedia".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 16, 2011 10:25 PM |
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Is more awkward even possible? Divine Evidence?
Are you completely out of your mind now, Elodin?
That website:
Quote: The articles on TDE are the result of my
studies and are offered freely to either strengthen the faith of the believer or to give the skeptic something to
consider.
"Result of MY studies"? By the way, the site is missing legal notice, which basically means, it's illegal.
Is more awkward even possible?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2011 11:34 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:00, 17 Jul 2011.
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Quote: Elodin, I'm totally not interested in your interpretations of the Bible and generally in your interpretations at all.
You seem to be pretty much uninteresting in anything but making false statements. You refuse to post links for your sources which pretty much shows your intent.
Quote: Zoroaster was not born until around the time of the Babylonian captivity by the way. He may have borrowed from the Jews but the Jews did not borrow from him.
It is not certain when Zoroaster was born so if you have some source who says that - here you are, he's born in year X, then it's most probably some wannabe trying to look interesting.
Actually, the Zoraster holy writings have him talking to a specific king, King Hystaspes, making a 6th century B.C the only feasible time of his life.
Since most of the Jewish Old Testament precedes that date anyone claiming the Jews got monotheism, ect, from him would have to be ignorant of actual history or a liar.
Quote:
Second - the Zoroastrianism is at its peak during the reign of the Sassanids which begins in II century AD, that's its "restoration". Then it gets codified in a way similar to the codification of the Christianity during the Council of Nicaea and - again similarly - the new "official" ideology is violently enforced. Go figure why most of the texts are from that period.
Correction, the earliest manuscripts:
Yasna and Vispered dated 1323 CE- Khordeh Avesta dated 1352 CE -Vendidad dated 1245 CEآ. See my previous post.
Quote:
This tradition however clearly predates the Christianity and much of the Jewish religion as the Mazdaism does not appear just out of a sudden and not even with Zoroaster - it's like saying that Yahveh's religion starts with Jesus.
That is pretty much an outright lie, so you may want to start questioning what you read from your mysterious source material. We know Judaism existed long before Zoroaster was born and their writings show them to be monotheists. Christianity is Judaism under a New Covenant.
All the evidence points to Zoroasterism being a copycat of Judaism and later of Christianity. Zoroastrianism is well known for absorbing other culture's religions into theirs.
Quote:
All the nonsense put together in your second post comes from some pro-Christian wannabe-"scholar" who doesn't seem to have bothered with the reading too much or just assembled the regular one-sided interpretation so the likes of you can believe it without activating even a single brain cell (if available).
You have produced 0 links for your false statements from your alleged sources written by anti-Christian liars. I think that is a rather telling fact.
Quote:
Just one more thing:
Quote: Others argue that the Jewish idea of Satan is borrowed from Zoroastrianism. But Satan appears in Job, a very early book
"A very early book" is a misleading trap for laymen. The book of Job is dated between XVI and VI or even V century BC which is a huge gap and there is no clear telling when exactly it was written. Furthermore, it will be hard to prove that it was never edited to include this "Satan" even if it was not present earlier, just like many writings had been edited throughout the years.
Anyway, next time quote some real scholars, not some "apologetic encyclopedia".
Wrong as usual. And as always you link to nothing to back up your false statements. Whatever website you are getting your information from is passing on lies to you.
Job is not the only Old Testament book to mention Satan, by the way. There is NO evidence Satan was edited into Job.
Clicky
Quote:
Top Ten Reasons Why We Believe the Book of Job was Written During the Time of the Patriarchs
1. Job lived 140 years after his calamities (42:16). This corresponds with the lifespans of the patriarchs. For example, Abraham lived 175 years.
2. Job's wealth was reckoned in livestock (1:3; 42:12) which was also true of Abraham (Gen. 12:16) and Jacob (Gen. 30:43).
3. The Sabeans and Chaldeans (Job 1:15, 17) were nomads in Abraham's time, but in later years were not.
4. The Hebrew word (qsitah) translated "piece of silver" (42:11) is used elsewhere only twice (Gen. 33:19, Josh. 24:32). Both times are in reference to Jacob.
5. Job's daughters were heirs of his estate along with their brothers (Job. 42:15). This was not possible later under the Mosaic Law if a daughter's brothers were still living (Num. 27:8).
6. Literary works similar in some ways to the Book of Job were written in Egypt and Mesopotamia around the time of the patriarchs.
7. The Book of Job includes no references to the Mosaic institutions (priesthood, laws, tabernacle, special religious days and feasts).
8. The name (sadday) is used of God 31 times in Job (compared with 17 times elsewhere in the Old Testament) and was a name familiar to the patriarchs.
9. Several personal and place names in the book were also associated with the patriarchal period. Examples include (a) Sheba - a grandson of Abraham, (b) Tema - another grandson of Abraham, (c) Eliphaz - a son of Esau, (d) Uz - a nephew of Abraham.
10. Job was a common West Semitic name in the second millennium B.C. Job was also a name of a 19th-century-B.C. prince in the Egyptian Execration texts.
here is another website that refutes anti-Christian liars who say Jesus was based on pagan myths.
Clicky
Unfortunately anti-theists don't mind lying so we always have to take what they have to say with a grain of salt. That is why I research so much.
Clicky
Quote:
Is the Old Testament plagiarized from the Zoroastrian scriptures?
Is the Old Testament plagiarized from the Zoroastrian scriptures?
Quite simply, no. Many wild theories are thrown about by theologians
looking for something to put into their ThD theses, and this is one of
these ideas. The Zend Avesta is the principle scripture of Zoroastrianism,
the pseudo-monotheistic sun-worshiping religion which began in Persia in
about the seventh century BCE. One principal problem with this theory is
that most of the Old Testament was written long before the Zend Avesta.
The origins of the Zend Avesta are obscure, but the earliest evidence for
its existence comes from about 600 BCE. Assuming that there are parallels
between the Old Testament and the Zend Avesta which require one to
conclude that one borrowed from the other (and this is a big assumption)
the logical implication would be that the Persian scripture borrowed from
the one which preceded it?the Old Testament! The reason theologians are
not attracted to this theory is that it would not provide an interesting
and controversial ThD thesis topic.
Another problem with this theory is that most of the original Zend Avesta
has been completely lost. In fact, it is difficult to prove that Zoroaster
(also known as Zarathustra) himself is even an historical person, as his
origins and even the time of his life are controversial. The Zoroastrians
now rely principally on the Gathas, which are supposed sayings of
Zoroaster. I say supposed sayings of Zoroaster because this book was
written hundreds of years after the Zend Avesta when most of the original
writings had already been lost to posterity. For this reason, it is
difficult to say what was in the Zend Avesta in the first place. This
would make it hard to prove either that the Bible writers borrowed from
the Zoroastrian scripture or vice versa. With little solid evidence in
either direction, much room is left for those who like to speculate and
who make a living out of finding supposed problems with the Bible. You
would do well to be extremely skeptical of such claims. You should look
for some sort of solid evidence to back up the claim that the Bible
writers borrowed from Zoroastrian scripture. To date, I have seen no
reliable evidence to support the claim, but if you find something, I would
request you send the information my way. I will not be holding my breath.
John Oakes, PhD
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2011 09:38 AM |
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Elodin, what you present here is material from sites of fools who may be everything, but no experts on the matter they are talking about.
The guys blather some stuff without giving any sources or reasons - they just claim something, anything that they like.
The websites are dubious. Mr. Oakes may have a Phd or two, but they are in Chemistry and Physics.
The rest? Dubious.
History - and we are talking about history and religion history here - is a bit more complex than that.
Ask yourself this: if those websites you cite with so much zeal would be named "TruthAboutAbraham" or some such and would contain exactly the same thing - only with the opposite claims, would you believe them? Accept them as trustworthy?
These sites are a joke, and you should know it.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 17, 2011 10:12 AM |
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Forget it, I'm out of this. Talking with the wall is hardly among the things that I enjoy.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 17, 2011 11:42 AM |
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Elodin basically said "your are liers, and you are wrong." he did not explain why.
Please remove most of his post, and his entire quotes.
After that, he might start explaining proply why his opponents interprentions is "false" compared to his own.
____________
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