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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted June 22, 2013 11:01 PM |
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@JJ,
Repenting is a spiritual process-that means we have the one side-his thoughts on his commited deeds,and on the other side-his voiced words,by which we could make a conclusion whether he repents or not.
We as humans can't read his thoughts,so we can't say if he is thinking what he is saying.
As Christians we believe that God knows what our thoughts are,so our contact with Him is not with the boundary of the need we to say something for Him to understand it.
There are many cases when humans does not forgive something God forgives and vice verser.
So I think your question have several aspects as starting point for answering it,which I could cover less consistently than somebody else.These are my thoughts on the matter.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 22, 2013 11:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:26, 22 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
So here's a question for members of the Christian religion:
How can a Christian be in favor of the death penalty?
Because the New Testament says the state has "the power of the sword", ie the power to execute and that the state is supposed to be a "terror" to evildoers, and supposed to execute "the wrath of God" on the evildoer. The state is supposed to restrain evil in this way to protect the innocent. Instead "modern" liberal states protect the evil doer and do harm to the innocent though their policies.
Quote:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
God does not have the irrational liberal viewpoint that a murderer is a criminal because Mommy spanked him for hitting little sister Becky when he was little or because Teacher scolded him for talking in class or because Daddy would not let him watch his favorite cartoon one Saturday morning or because he saw Bugs Bunny punch Elmer Fudd in the nose on a cartoon. The wicked person chooses to become a wicked person.
The person who murdered made his choice to do evil. He stole someone's life, somebody's Daddy, somebody's husband, somebody's son. The murderer aside from causing much emotional harm most likely plunged the family of the victim into a financial catastrophe as well.
Unfortunately liberals generally weep for the criminals and forget about the victims of his crimes. Let's weep for the victims and make sure that justice is done instead.
And of course in the US it takes many, many years to carry out the death penalty these days so the murderer has plenty of time to come to repentance. If he does truly repent, fine. But he must still die for his crimes.
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Well, that's why the inquisition always wanted their "delinquents" to admit to their crimes, confess and repent before they killed them.
The Inquisition was against Christ so whatever their motivation was, it did not come from a Christian viewpoint as it was in opposition to everything the New Testament teaches.
Never once was the church authorized to punish any sin. It is only authorized to dis-fellowship a person who claims to be a Christian but who continues to live in sin. And the dis-fellowshipping is to come only after several different attempts have been made by different people to bring the person to repentance.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 22, 2013 11:27 PM |
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In general, the people being against death penalty are not based on morals or religion, but on system failures. If one single innocent person is executed there is no come-back. From a religious view, all the state should then be executed for carrying an innocent death, no? And this happened too often. Guess where, US mostly.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted June 22, 2013 11:44 PM |
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Elodin, you used "liberal" in your one post about religion three times. I'm from Europe and I have to ask: how does the word "liberal" fully represent anyone's religious views and be opposed to Christianity? At least here, in Poland, are present such political views as Progressive Christianity or, if we're talking about religion, Liberal Christianity as well (although Poland is more of a catholic country rather than protestant). How do you understand the word "liberal" if you use it in rather negative way?
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The Inquisition was against Christ so whatever their motivation was, it did not come from a Christian viewpoint as it was in opposition to everything the New Testament teaches.
It would be simple to say that something that you think is wrong isn't a part of Christianity, but I'm afraid it isn't true to say that since, according to Drakon-Deus, every Christian is different and even then they all belong to the same Christianity.
I'm not telling you that the whole Christianity is wrong, but remember that the world isn't and will never be black and white, so there were, are and will be Christians doing things against Christ. And, no matter if you want it or not, they are and will be a part of Christianity.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 22, 2013 11:58 PM |
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But who are we to give or take human life? Only God can. I don't care about what happens after death to the person, he should die when he dies, not when we condemn him. We have no right.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 23, 2013 12:04 AM |
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Quote:
But who are we to give or take human life? Only God can. I don't care about what happens after death to the person, he should die when he dies, not when we condemn him. We have no right.
God says murderers and animals that kill a person are to be killed by "the hand of man."
That is to be done through the state (after a trial.)
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Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 12:16 AM |
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Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 23, 2013 12:18 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin, you used "liberal" in your one post about religion three times. I'm from Europe and I have to ask: how does the word "liberal" fully represent anyone's religious views and be opposed to Christianity?
I talked about liberal policies that are in opposition to common sense and what God has decreed. I did not call liberalism a religion.
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The Inquisition was against Christ so whatever their motivation was, it did not come from a Christian viewpoint as it was in opposition to everything the New Testament teaches.
It would be simple to say that something that you think is wrong isn't a part of Christianity, but I'm afraid it isn't true to say that since, according to Drakon-Deus, every Christian is different and even then they all belong to the same Christianity.
Yes, a Christian can sin. No, a Christian can't hate or murder. The New Testament specifically says anyone who hates or murders does not know God. So whatever the people of the Inquisition claimed, the New Testament says they did not know God.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
There are lots of people who say, "Lord, lord" (claim to follow Christ) but who don't and who don't belong to Christ according to the words of Christ.
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Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Now, if you can show me verses in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples to go kill another person because that person was not following Jesus or had a wrong idea about Jesus I'll change my viewpoint. Or maybe quote the apostle Peter in one his epistles saying the believers need to purge their ranks by killing heretics. Or maybe Paul said to kill people who preach wrong things? How about John? Mark? Nope, sorry, such a thing is not in the Bible and is in direct opposition to what Christ taught.
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Revelation
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 23, 2013 12:23 AM |
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Quote:
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you.
There is a difference in judging someone and acknowledging what what they did was sin or was breaking the law. Jesus said, "You'll know them by their fruits."
There is also a difference between personal vengeance (which the Bible prohibits) and the state executing a criminal or locking a criminal up. The Bible says the state has the power to execute and the responsibility for executing the wrath of God on evildoers.
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 12:31 AM |
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Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2013 12:54 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 00:54, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
I talked about liberal policies that are in opposition to common sense and what God has decreed.
But you used the word "liberal" or "liberals", as if it's generally opposition to Christianity. I just wonder what is your definition of "liberal" - maybe if I knew it I would understand you better.
Quote:
Yes, a Christian can sin. No, a Christian can't hate or murder. The New Testament specifically says anyone who hates or murders does not know God. So whatever the people of the Inquisition claimed, the New Testament says they did not know God.
So Christianity has to always be pretty and clean, because if something in Christianity is wrong, then it's automatically deleted from Christianity?
While you're discussing with Drakon-Deus about killing people, you have to know that every Christian understands the Bible differently (as I stated earlier). In that case the meaning of "wrong" and "right", that is morality, isn't objective anymore, so apparently everything can be automatically deleted from Christianity if there are enough people who "feel" they're Christians. Therefore either Christianity is about what most people think it is (and in that case you won't be Christian anymore since they seem to be not so conservative as you are) or there are more than one "Christianities".
Or maybe you should just understand that there are murderers and haters who are called Christians and you can't just say "They're not" and act like everything is fine with your religion.
(seems like I've been talking about it already, but maybe this time it'll lead us somewhere)
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 23, 2013 01:23 AM |
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Quote:
Because the New Testament says the state has "the power of the sword", ie the power to execute and that the state is supposed to be a "terror" to evildoers, and supposed to execute "the wrath of God" on the evildoer.
Oh, so the book of love and the morality of turning the other cheek suddenly takes a Quranesque turn in there...
The thing is Elodin, just look at the situation; we have a Christian who is against the death penalty and a Christian who is for the death penalty. Both can (and do) pick-up parables, proverbs and metaphors from the New Testament to support their point. The NT does not have the precision or clarity of a modern law book, it isn't even a text written by a single writer with a solid direction, it is a collection of texts, that some clerics some ages ago thought was best to express what is Christianity. They could have picked a different collection.But put that aside for now.
As I told you earlier, your views always fit like a glove to the typical American conservative and your interpretations of the Bible are the result of a political environment and conditioning. So we have two possibilities here:
1) The American conservatives finally got the Bible right and their interpretation is the perfect one.
2) You are, just like any other people from any age of history or country, modifying the NT to the already existing code of conduct. (Of course, there is a limit to that, you can not modify it to eat babies, but for example during slavery Christians used to say that the slaves are from the lineage of Cain and free folk are from the lineage of Able. Interpreting a text, people can get quite creative.)
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 23, 2013 03:45 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:06, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
Drakon, that verse has nothing to do with civil judgement/punishment for crime by a government. It has to do with how to escape punishment from God for sin -- sincere repentance. Look at the verse in its context.
Quote:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
It has NOTHING to do with the state not executing criminals. In fact, God COMMANDED Israel to execute certain sorts of criminals. And before the Mosaic covenant God commanded Noah and his descendants to execute murderers (which I quoted from Genesis chapter 9.)
And then I quoted the New Testament where Paul wrote under the unction of the Holy Spirit that the state has the power of the sword and is to be a terror to evil doers.
Jesus NEVER ONCE addressed the state at all. Jesus did not preach to the Roman government, which ruled over Israel. Jesus preached to his followers and told them not to seek personal vengeance. Jesus never forbade Rome to execute criminals. Nothing Jesus said should be interpreted as "I forbid the state to execute criminals."
Christ's will is expressed by the apostle Paul, who wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ, and that writing is pretty explicit about the power of the sword.
@Hobbit
Quote:
Or maybe you should just understand that there are murderers and haters who are called Christians and you can't just say "They're not" and act like everything is fine with your religion.
Sorry, but the New Testament is the authoritative source of Christiana doctrine and it says no murderer or person who hates knows God. I follow God, not you. The Bible says such a person abides in darkness. He can make whatever claims he wants to about knowing Christ but Christ denies any relationship with him, according to the Bible.
Quote:
While you're discussing with Drakon-Deus about killing people, you have to know that every Christian understands the Bible differently (as I stated earlier).
The verses I quoted from Paul are straightforward and easy to understand. The verse Drakon quoted has nothing at all to do with civil punishment for crime, as I addressed above. CONTEXT is where a lot of Christians go wrong in interpreting a verse. You must read the book and the passages surrounding a verse to properly understand it. Otherwise a verse can be misunderstood to mean something other than what it actually says in the passage.
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Oh, so the book of love and the morality of turning the other cheek suddenly takes a Quranesque turn in there...
Huh? There is nothing immoral with a government punishing crime. It is in fact very moral as long as the laws are just.
Quote:
As I told you earlier, your views always fit like a glove to the typical American conservative and your interpretations of the Bible are the result of a political environment and conditioning. So we have two possibilities here:
Prove me wrong rather than the perpetual mudslinging you do.
Do you think I have an answer for every question about the Bible because I've to a super-duper Sunday school all my life? No. I've studied the Bible intently for 40 years. I know when someone is taking a verse out of context because I am intimately familiar with the passage before I open review it.
I began life as a liberal, by the way. And yeah, many liberals who call themselves Christians (and some are) have many ideas that are not Biblical. Many Christians don't bother studying the Bible and so have no inkling as to why they believe what they believe other than some preacher told them that is what the Bible says.
I study the Bible myself and reject what my denomination or pastor says if it runs counter to the Scripture. The first denomination I was a part of was Southern Baptist. That is what my parents were, and my father still is. After my sister's healing my theological world was shaken and I moved on down the path on my spiritual journey. I attended Assembly of God and charismatic churches and eventually I became a oneness apostolic Pentecostal.
I don't believe every little thing my denomination officially teaches. The emphasis on holy living is great but some of my brethren are a bit too stringent in dress code in my opinion. But I do agree with the denomination's understanding on the important stuff.
So, no, my theology is not the result of being spoonfed by someone else. It is a result of many hours of study and prayer and personal experiences.
Anyways, I respect Christians who have different understandings but in this particular case my understanding is correct because there is nothing vague about the passage in Romans about the state having the power of the sword to be a terror to evildoers.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 04:00 AM |
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Look at Paul himself, how many Christians did he murder? And yet he was not only forgiven but became the apostle to the Gentiles. I think God wants repentance and not the death of the criminal.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 23, 2013 04:05 AM |
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Edited by artu at 04:12, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Huh? There is nothing immoral with a government punishing crime. It is in fact very moral as long as the laws are just.
I didn't say it was immoral but it's definitely not a morality based on turning the other cheek. Also your interpretations are as debatable as Drakon's, "bring terror" does not necessarily mean apply capital punishment, do not hate your brother does not necessarily mean do not hate anybody (but that was explained earlier in this thread with detail), you are not in a position to claim your interpretations are beyond reasonable doubt.
Among developed countries (in which many of them, Christianity is part of mainstream culture) death penalty is almost extinct, and it wouldn't be out of proportion to predict that it will perish in the U.S. too in... say 100 years, if not 50 years or so. Now, if that happens, do you think Christians living in those times will demand the death penalty back because of what Paul wrote?
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Prove me wrong rather than the perpetual mudslinging you do.
Why would saying your opinions fit to a profile (and obviously to emphasize a pattern I might add) be mudslinging, I don't use the term American conservative as an insult, do you?!! Always so eager to play the victim...
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 04:28 AM |
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Paul did not say anything along the lines of "The death penalty is crucial and it's God will, do well and preserve it"
So, no, there's no real reason why Christians should support it.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 23, 2013 04:39 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:44, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Look at Paul himself, how many Christians did he murder? And yet he was not only forgiven but became the apostle to the Gentiles. I think God wants repentance and not the death of the criminal.
Yeah, God would love everyone to repent, but not everyone is willing to repent and man can't see the hearts of persons even if they did repent.
The Old and New Testament both say the state is to execute criminals so I don't know what else to say about that.
Quote:
I didn't say it was immoral but it's definitely not a morality based on turning the other cheek.
The Bible never tells a government to turn the other cheek when a citizen is murdered. It tells the government to kill the murderer.
The Bible forbids personal vengeance, not the execution of murderers.
Quote:
Also your interpretations are as debatable as Drakon's, "bring terror" does not necessarily mean apply capital punishment, do not hate your brother does not necessarily mean do not hate anybody (but that was explained earlier in this thread with detail), you are not in a position to claim your interpretations are beyond reasonable doubt.
Nah, the Bible can't just mean any old thing. Paul was not saying the state has the power of the sword so it can shake a sword at the evildoer. Paul's teaching lines up with the rest of the Bible where the punishment for many crimes was death. Remember that Jesus was executed by Rome and two criminals were executed with him. Rome used the power of the sword to execute.
No, brother in the passage can't mean what you want it to mean. If it meant only "fellow Christian" the passage would make no sense.
The apostle John say such a person DOES NOT KNOW GOD and so such a person IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. If the hater is not a Chrisian then the word "brother in the passage CAN'T mean "fellow Christian" but means "fellow human being."
Throughout I John, John deals with distinguishing between Christians and people who claim to be Christians but who are not.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Your "interpretation," substituting "fellow Christian" for "brother" would lead to some bizarre verses in 1John. In particular, 1John 3:10 proves you to be incorrect. Also, 1John 3:12 makes it clear John is not using the word "brother" in a spiritual sense of spiritual brothers, when speaking of Cain and Abel. Now look also at verse 10. I scratched out brother and substituted your "interpretation" and it makes no sense.
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1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
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1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother[fellow Christian]].
Also, please note, to be a Christian a person has to love God. That is the "greatest commandment" according to Jesus. So once again your claim can't be correct.
Quote:
1John 4:20
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother[fellow Christian], he is a liar: for he that loveth not his [fellow Christan] whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 05:20 AM |
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We're also supposed to love our neighbor, and according to the parable of the Good Samaritan, anyone who is in need of help from you is your neighbor. If we refuse to do that, we cannot be called real Christians.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 23, 2013 05:26 AM |
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Edited by artu at 07:47, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Nah, the Bible can't just mean any old thing.
As I stated earlier, there are of course limits to interpreting a text. Yet, those limits are quite vague, especially when it comes to religious scripture that uses proverbs and metaphors so often. In some cases things that are meant literal are later to be claimed being metaphors to adjust the text to contemporary knowledge, but that's not exactly the topic right now. What's important here is, through out history, moral code and law always changed due to real life conditions and people always found a way to interpret (adjust) the scriptures to those conditions. If they couldn't, it was the religion that went extinct not the contemporary moral code of the age. No matter what you say about the inquisition, I'm sure their technical knowledge of the Bible was as good as yours, it was their job. Only, they interpreted the Bible according to their time.
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Your "interpretation," substituting "fellow Christian" for "brother" would lead to some bizarre verses in 1John. In particular, 1John 3:10 proves you to be incorrect. Also, 1John 3:12 makes it clear John is not using the word "brother" in a spiritual sense of spiritual brothers, when speaking of Cain and Abel. Now look also at verse 10. I scratched out brother and substituted your "interpretation" and it makes no sense.
I couldn't spot that argument at the moment, since this thing is over 60 pages now but as far as I remember my objection was more general, it didn't necessarily said brother refers to fellow Christian, you were jumping to a conclusion from a verse and I was objecting your conclusion wasn't the only possible one. And may I remind you, there are already contradictions among the texts included in the NT so that's not exactly a deal breaker.
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Paul's teaching lines up with the rest of the Bible where the punishment for many crimes was death. Remember that Jesus was executed by Rome and two criminals were executed with him. Rome used the power of the sword to execute.
So? Paul may be simply advising to execute the current law efficiently on evildoers whatever that current law is, if you take it as literal as the existing Roman law of the times, shouldn't it then apply to Roman Law in general. Let's replace our modern constitutions and criminal law with Roman Law then? Let's even crucify criminals.
You still haven't answered the related question. If death penalty gets out of the picture, do you think Christians should demand it back based on what Paul wrote? I'm not asking if death penalty is compatible with Christianity here, I'm asking is it required?
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Also, please note, to be a Christian a person has to love God. That is the "greatest commandment" according to Jesus. So once again your claim can't be correct.
I'm not sure which of my claims are you referring to here. You have to love God, so you can't... ?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted June 23, 2013 07:01 AM |
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<<Paul may be simply advising to execute the current law efficiently on evildoers whatever that current law is...>>
My point exactly.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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