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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 22, 2013 09:19 PM |
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artu said:
Damn Markkur, you are a poet.
Edit: Overlapped with JJ's post, it appears sarcastic, it was not.
TY my friend, you're very perceptive...as always. 
I've loads of writings of all types but here's proof of what you could see; it was written 31 years ago, as an expression of my deep-seated heartfelt goal for my life.
"The Quest"
To be in this world and not be of it
To see the truth and still to love it
To forgive wrongs done and turn the other cheek
To rebuke your anger and become the meek
To know unseen things where life really lies
To pursue the treasure money cannot buy
To yield in love in every possible way
To help the Son light the day
To love God with my heart, mind and soul
To be like Jesus my distant goal
Mark Paul Davis 1982
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 22, 2013 09:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:41, 22 Aug 2013.
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One of those poets who loses it if deliberation slaps though...
This "law-battle" happens inside of every person because it is very hard to shake the shackles of legalism; it's the driving force of nearly everything today, so when we try to live simply by Spirit, all too soon if we're not careful we have left Christ behind (compassion)and we become more like the N.T. brothers John & James when they "told Jesus to rain-down fire on a town after they had not been welcomed"; Jesus rebuked them saying; "you know not the Spirit you are of".
Flash forward; over time the Church, on this Law-Path, grew into the Roman-Mess of "Serving Mammon and not God" (with a few exceptions) and created a very long list of crimes. They grabbed purple-robes for themselves and high-seats of honor, they said "Lord, Lord" but did not believe. They became a new version of the Jewish' San-Hendren and just like that group killed Christ, so the new preversion would kill anyone Christ-like.
"The Word" being freed and getting out to the People, was the salvation of the Church...sorta...for the ones that picked the Bible up then, went to doing the same things but for much different reasons. It's a long ugly tale that's a about Man and not Christ.
Many here believe in evolution, I do when it comes to the Mind of Man. After a long Church history of mixed-results between horrible atrocities and great good, most Christians today are about living the New Testament and not worshipping the OLD.
This is poetic, not things in verses all the time.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 22, 2013 09:53 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:59, 22 Aug 2013.
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Artu:
This is my first discussion with you, so let me explain how I function. I'm not competing with anyone here, mate, and am definitely not in the convincing anyone of anything business. It's a jolly side effect whenever that happens, I'll admit. But that's not due to me. That's due to people realizing they like something that I happen to like.
Anyhow, what I'm doing here is I'm having a (granted, somewhat elaborate) chat with a few guys, some of whom I've grown up with in a way, about what is for me an interesting subject, while sipping on my drink and prepping to go to the beach (or, right now, chilling on a fine evening). I'm neither preaching nor crusading. I'm not sweating and my butt crack is not showing. I am simply discussing something with some people whom I know to be quality conversation partners. I could do this - and I sometimes do this - live, over a game of cards with pictures of indecent women on them.
This is why, as if talking to my local pals, I occasionally mention examples like my ex. If you'd spent three years with my ex, you would have, like me, realized that life is far easier once you accept the fact that she is never wrong.
I said I'm not nerfing anything, just practicing a religion I believe in. Why are you pressing on with 'my nerfed spiritualism'? Why does religion bother you so much?
Artu, are you circumcised?
MVass:
I don't know about you but God's giving me a very reasonable amount of orgasmic pleasure. This is because millions of years of evolution have made me into the hurricane of wit and sex appeal that I am today.
On a slightly more serious note, which is not to say that what I said above isn't true, because it is, you mentioned yourself that God perhaps ought to give us what we need to be happy, not simply everything we WANT. Perhaps that is the case, in a manner of speaking.
You said that God's love may be alien to humans or hardly understood. To an extent, maybe. Perhaps we need to work a little to understand it. Why not? To me, freedom is the pinnacle of benevolence. Letting not only us, but life and the rest of the universe itself, find its way and form itself is to me a matter of utmost benevolence. I don't ask for anything else but that touch of creation. Hell, it's nice to have some privacy. Every pain and mishap is temporary at any rate. Perhaps it's not God's benevolence that we are taking too seriously, but the notions of suffering and misery. Anything can be overcome.
Elodin:
El, you quote Revelations, and then tell me to feel free to call Jesus a liar. You're telling me that I interpret the sword as some kind of state's obligation to preach to convicts. I've never said that. You know I never said that, you grumpy old kook.  So spare me that routine. Let's keep things in the boundaries of playful bickering. Never meant to make this personal. I understand that when things get personal in Texas, people get shot.
You've known me for a while. You're aware I never take anyone's word for anything, especially when it comes to dogma. I've done a bit of reading myself.
Paul talking about the power of the sword means that he knew the state has physical authority and that this isn't going to change any time soon. Taking the last 2k years into account, he was right. He also knew that some kind of earthly order and authority must exist, even though Jesus never quite focused on it. Things being like that, it was beneficial to turn the state into something that answers to the Lord as well. The sword is and always was a tool of battle. Execution and slaughter was never its prime purpose. The power to battle wrong doers and keep order; the power to threaten, coerce and capture evil doers through physical authority; you can't tell me that this isn't a more viable interpretation in the context of Jesus' teachings than simple endorsement of capital punishment for undefined crimes.
You also quoted Revelations as proof that hell is a place of physical torment (and Mat 25:46 as well. True death is eternal punishment, and life eternal is the alternative, in communion with God, so Mat 25:46 fits what I'm saying perfectly. So I'll focus on Revelations). This is reasonable, as its imagery is... the liveliest. Revelations are, however, intentionally written that way. They also mention many-headed dragons and whatnot. They are a warning written in large, red letters, a complicated and metaphorical prophecy about things to come (some of which, according to some, may have come already). But they are not meant to put mankind into a state of permanent paranoia, but to, at every point, be wary of those trying to deceive it, and lead a quality life in harmony with God all the way 'til Judgment Day. Focusing too much on this specific part of the Bible can bring upon trying to identify it with current events and it can be effectively twisted for all sorts of purposes and misunderstandings; even more so due to its bombastic style and mystic prophecy. There is also that old warning against those that proclaim 'He is here!' before... well, before he is here. The Orthodox Church teaches that it's beyond absolute mortal deciphering or prediction, and that we should get the essence, and the details will reveal themselves in time, when it comes to understanding the metaphors written within. I've always personally regarded Revelations as both the aforementioned reminder to walk the good walk to the end, and a final that's all nice and swell, children, but I'll be watching by the Old Testament.
JJ:
You silver tongued devil you.
With this I'll probably abandon you guys for a while again, got a busy schedule coming up. Will hop in for a word or two here and there.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 22, 2013 10:02 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I can't help to direct a last word to Elodin - who cares what god supposedly said to Noah? Certainly not me, and I doubt the law inforcement does, either: If God wants to punish murderers, he should be God enough to do it himself.
This is the religion thread and we were discussing what the Bible says about various things, some of which you introduced. I already know you don't care what Gods says, but you certainly like to make a lot of claims about the Bible says that you can't substantiate in your preaching of anti-theism.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 22, 2013 10:05 PM |
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Baklava, I think you do nerf it. I'm so fed up with this "Hinduism is also Christianity if you want it to be" BS. To me, that's just politics in the worst sense. However, I overreacted a little bit. That is on me, I was rude, I apologize. Right now I have different things on my mind, we will discuss later, I will make it up to you for being rude, but not now please.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 22, 2013 10:44 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:45, 22 Aug 2013.
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Quote:
Paul talking about the power of the sword means that he knew the state has physical authority and that this isn't going to change any time soon. Taking the last 2k years into account, he was right. He also knew that some kind of earthly order and authority must exist, even though Jesus never quite focused on it. Things being like that, it was beneficial to turn the state into something that answers to the Lord as well. The sword is and always was a tool of battle. Execution and slaughter was never its prime purpose. The power to battle wrong doers and keep order; the power to threaten, coerce and capture evil doers through physical authority; you can't tell me that this isn't a more viable interpretation in the context of Jesus' teachings than simple endorsement of capital punishment for undefined crimes.
Rome executed criminals dude. Paul was writing to the church in Rome and said they should obey Rome (as long as Rome's commands did not conflict with God's commands)not only for "conscience's sake but because Rome had the power of the sword. Paul was not talking about Rome battling anybody but about Rome punishing evildoers with death.
The state is intended by God to be a "terror" to evildoers, "beareth not the sword in vain," is "the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." The most straightforward meaning of that is that the state has the authority to execute criminals, like it had before and during the Law of Moses.
When Jesus walked the earth as a man he never said one word about the state is supposed to do. His ministry was to individuals, telling us how to enter the kingdom of God and how to live our lives. There is nothing contradictory in what Jesus said to individuals and the state executing criminals.
Quote:
You also quoted Revelations as proof that hell is a place of physical torment (and Mat 25:46 as well. True death is eternal punishment, and life eternal is the alternative, in communion with God, so Mat 25:46 fits what I'm saying perfectly.
No one ever ceases to exist, in heaven or in hell. "The second death" is eternal separation from God, not ceasing to exist. When Jesus spoke of Hell he used phrases like "everlasting punishment", "torments," "where the worm dieth not," "gnashing of teeth," and "unquenchable fire." The clear teaching of Jesus is hell is a place of eternal punishment.
The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this flame."
In Mat 25:46 Jesus said, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire . . ."
In Mark 9:45-46, Jesus speaks about Hell: "... cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "
Jesus clearly taught about a hell consisting of eternal conscious punishment for sin.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 23, 2013 01:31 AM |
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artu said:
One of those poets who loses it if deliberation slaps though...
This is poetic, not things in verses all the time.
I know, I should have added and meant to; that the example written in my baby-steps is what would eventually mature inoto the true Poet. "To run we must first walk."
Moreover the value for me is not the lackluster poem but that I knew what I wanted way back then and lived it for the next three dacades+. Maybe everyone does this, I don't know. I'm just happy I did.
Cheers Artu my friend
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2013 09:24 AM |
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Elodin said:
JollyJoker said:
I can't help to direct a last word to Elodin - who cares what god supposedly said to Noah? Certainly not me, and I doubt the law inforcement does, either: If God wants to punish murderers, he should be God enough to do it himself.
This is the religion thread and we were discussing what the Bible says about various things, some of which you introduced. I already know you don't care what Gods says, but you certainly like to make a lot of claims about the Bible says that you can't substantiate in your preaching of anti-theism.
God's talk with Noah after his little purge is irrelevant insofar, because the covenant God declared is supposedly replaced by the one Jesus set up. Because - what happened with the people before Jesus made his sacrifice? HAD they souls at all? If yes, what happened with them?
EITHER Jesus changed the rules for the Jews only - then he replaced the Moses deal. OR he changed the rules for all, then he replaced ALL deals.
THAT'S why people - and law enforcements, even in Christian countries, don't care about what God said to Noah.
Lastly - we have free will, haven't we. So God cannot command things - nor, wouldn't you say yourself so on numerous occasions - does he even WANT to. Jesus said, we shall love each other, and that's that. Peace, brother.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 23, 2013 02:51 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
God's talk with Noah after his little purge is irrelevant insofar, because the covenant God declared is supposedly replaced by the one Jesus set up.
What God told Noah and his family had nothing to do with the Old Covenant. Noah came long before Moses. Gods commandment to Noah and his family was a general command to mankind since all members of the human race were present there and he spoke to them all at once.
Quote:
Because - what happened with the people before Jesus made his sacrifice? HAD they souls at all? If yes, what happened with them?
I answered that not many posts ago. Those under the Law of Moses were judged by the Law. Those not under the Law were judged by natural law. Both were to live according to that they had the opportunity to know and were to seek God's mercy to be forgiven. Those under the Law of Moses would place their hands on the head of an animal sacrifice, confess their sins, and then sacrifice the animal in their place.
Quote:
EITHER Jesus changed the rules for the Jews only - then he replaced the Moses deal. OR he changed the rules for all, then he replaced ALL deals.
The OLD Covenant was fulfilled in Christ. Jesus established the New Covenant. But regardless, God's expressed will before the Old Covenant, during the Old Covenant, and after the Old Covenant is the execution of murderers.
Quote:
Lastly - we have free will, haven't we. So God cannot command things - nor, wouldn't you say yourself so on numerous occasions - does he even WANT to. Jesus said, we shall love each other, and that's that. Peace, brother.
No, I've never ever said God does not command things. God has commanded a lot of things. Free will means you can obey God or disobey God. You are not a robot.
Jesus commanded a lot of things. But yeah, his core teaching was know that God is one, love God with all that you are, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus during the time that he walked the earth did not speak about the responsibilities of the state, but he spoke about the responsibilities of the state later through the apostle Paul.
In the US between 40 and 67% of all released criminals return to prison within 3 years. A great many innocent people suffer because the state does not do its job in being a terror to evildoers, and avenger to execute the wrath of God on evildoers.
____________
Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2013 03:53 PM |
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Elodin said:
JollyJoker said:
God's talk with Noah after his little purge is irrelevant insofar, because the covenant God declared is supposedly replaced by the one Jesus set up.
What God told Noah and his family had nothing to do with the Old Covenant. Noah came long before Moses. Gods commandment to Noah and his family was a general command to mankind since all members of the human race were present there and he spoke to them all at once.
That is your interpretation. But you didn't understand the following question:
Quote:
Quote:
Because - what happened with the people before Jesus made his sacrifice? HAD they souls at all? If yes, what happened with them?
I answered that not many posts ago. Those under the Law of Moses were judged by the Law. Those not under the Law were judged by natural law. Both were to live according to that they had the opportunity to know and were to seek God's mercy to be forgiven. Those under the Law of Moses would place their hands on the head of an animal sacrifice, confess their sins, and then sacrifice the animal in their place.
Meant is - what happened with them when they died? Only Jesus restored the godly grace and all again - so they would have perished before Jesus, right?
That changes the basis for the Noah deal.
Quote:
EITHER Jesus changed the rules for the Jews only - then he replaced the Moses deal. OR he changed the rules for all, then he replaced ALL deals.
The OLD Covenant was fulfilled in Christ. Jesus established the New Covenant. But regardless, God's expressed will before the Old Covenant, during the Old Covenant, and after the Old Covenant is the execution of murderers.
If Jesus is supposed to be the savior of everyone then he replaces ALL covenants, including that with Noah.
Quote:
Quote:
Lastly - we have free will, haven't we. So God cannot command things - nor, wouldn't you say yourself so on numerous occasions - does he even WANT to. Jesus said, we shall love each other, and that's that. Peace, brother.
No, I've never ever said God does not command things. God has commanded a lot of things. Free will means you can obey God or disobey God. You are not a robot.
Jesus commanded a lot of things. But yeah, his core teaching was know that God is one, love God with all that you are, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus during the time that he walked the earth did not speak about the responsibilities of the state, but he spoke about the responsibilities of the state later through the apostle Paul.
In the US between 40 and 67% of all released criminals return to prison within 3 years. A great many innocent people suffer because the state does not do its job in being a terror to evildoers, and avenger to execute the wrath of God on evildoers.
Your interpretation of Paul's talk is faulty in my opinion, so that's invalid. Jesus did say nothing of that sort that you HAVE TO execute evildoers.
Therefore your whole line of argumentation is invalid and represents only your own personal interpretation of things.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted August 23, 2013 04:55 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Peace, brother.
Yes,that's what a Christian does.Peace.
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2013 05:26 PM |
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Bak:
Freedom isn't benevolence. Benevolence can be expressed through freedom, for example, when parents let their kids choose their favorite ice cream flavor, but freedom itself isn't benevolence.
It is a mistake to consider the "freedom" of evolution to be benevolence. (Evolution is contrary to Christianity, but that's a separate argument.) Think of how many generations of living things suffered and died in the world before today's. Evolution (to anthropomorphize it, which I hope isn't misleading) doesn't care about well-being, it cares about passing on traits that are good at being passed on. Why do old people's bodies start to hurt? Why not? It's not like them not hurting would cause them to have more children. There's no selection pressure there. Perhaps you don't care about animals, because God gave us dominion over them. Then consider people - think of all the past generations of people who have suffered, died of diseases, had their children die in infancy, etc. For many generations, people suffered from smallpox, polio, typhus, etc. In third-world countries, children are still regularly losing their parents and parents are still losing their children to disease, war, and malnutrition. Not to mention the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, and other historical atrocities. Letting that happen isn't benevolence. It's indifference at best, and possibly malevolence.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted August 23, 2013 05:27 PM |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 23, 2013 06:48 PM |
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"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 23, 2013 08:37 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:41, 23 Aug 2013.
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Quote:
That is your interpretation.
God said that his demand that murderers be executed is based on the fact that he made man in his image. Man is still in the image of God today, thus the demand of God is still that murderers be executed.
Quote:
Genesis 9:
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
Quote:
Meant is - what happened with them when they died? Only Jesus restored the godly grace and all again - so they would have perished before Jesus, right?
The righteous dead went to a holding place Jesus called Abraham's bosom before the death and resurrection of Christ. The wicked dead went to a place of torment. After the resurrection of Christ the righteous dead went to heaven.
Quote:
Your interpretation of Paul's talk is faulty in my opinion, so that's invalid. Jesus did say nothing of that sort that you HAVE TO execute evildoers.
Quote:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The state can't be a terror to evildoers, using the power of the sword to be a revenger to execute the wrtath of God upon him that doeth evil if the state does not excute the evil doers.
Being a terror to evil doers and executing the wrath of God on them is not putting them in air conditioning where they watch cable TV, play pool, play cards, play dominoes, have volleyball courts, handball courts, basketball courts, weight rooms, places to jog, libraries of books to read, free health care free food, ect.
When a state refuses to fulfil its role as an avenger to execute wrath on him that doeth evil the innocent suffer and continue to be victimized.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 23, 2013 11:20 PM |
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Elodin said:
Quote:
That is your interpretation.
God said that his demand that murderers be executed is based on the fact that he made man in his image. Man is still in the image of God today, thus the demand of God is still that murderers be executed.
God said and did a lot that is not relevant anymore today.
Quote:
Genesis 9:
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
Yes. Might be a command. Might be a prediction. Might be a promise. Who cares? After Jesus, I mean.
Quote:
Quote:
Meant is - what happened with them when they died? Only Jesus restored the godly grace and all again - so they would have perished before Jesus, right?
The righteous dead went to a holding place Jesus called Abraham's bosom before the death and resurrection of Christ. The wicked dead went to a place of torment. After the resurrection of Christ the righteous dead went to heaven.
And you know that from the Bible?
Quote:
Quote:
Your interpretation of Paul's talk is faulty in my opinion, so that's invalid. Jesus did say nothing of that sort that you HAVE TO execute evildoers.
Quote:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The state can't be a terror to evildoers, using the power of the sword to be a revenger to execute the wrtath of God upon him that doeth evil if the state does not excute the evil doers.
Being a terror to evil doers and executing the wrath of God on them is not putting them in air conditioning where they watch cable TV, play pool, play cards, play dominoes, have volleyball courts, handball courts, basketball courts, weight rooms, places to jog, libraries of books to read, free health care free food, ect.
When a state refuses to fulfil its role as an avenger to execute wrath on him that doeth evil the innocent suffer and continue to be victimized.
Dude, it's YOU making conclusions. The text says. IF ANYTHING, the state is NOT a terror for the believer, but for the evil-doer. TERROR is not KILLER. And the text say "DOES NOT BEAR THE SWORD IN VAIN", which iss the same thing as saying, the state CAN use it - but of course it doesn't HAVE TO. In fact you can even interpret it in a way, saying, it SHOULD be used, if it iss deemed necessary, but it doesn't ahve to NO MATTER WHAT.
You MIGHT interpret it in a way that says, "if you are an evil-doer, you shouldn't be surprised if the state makes use of the sword against you", but that's it.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 24, 2013 01:05 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:09, 24 Aug 2013.
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Dude, Paul was not writing about some brand new never before seen right of the state. The "power of the sword" is the right and duty the state has ALWAYS had.
Quote:
Yes. Might be a command. Might be a prediction. Might be a promise. Who cares? After Jesus, I mean.
The word used is DEMAND.
Quote:
Genesis 9:
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
Man being made in the image of God is the basis of God demanding the death penalty for murderers. Man is still in the image of God. God still demands the life of murderers be forfeit.
What God told Noah was for all of mankind. Murderers are to die at the hand of man.
Later God made a covenant with the Jewish people through Moses. That covenant is now called the Old Covenant because Christ fulfilled it and it no longer exists. Christ established the New Covenant. But Christ's work had nothing to do with what Noah was told.
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And you know that from the Bible?
Yep. Jesus also called Abraham's bosom paradise when he was on the cross.
(Luk 23:43 Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. )
Quote:
Luke 16:19-31
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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You MIGHT interpret it in a way that says, "if you are an evil-doer, you shouldn't be surprised if the state makes use of the sword against you", but that's it.
Chose to believe what you want to believe.
The state is to be a terror to evildoers via the power of the sword and is "the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
If you chose to believe the wrath of God to be executed on murderers by the state is for murderers to be given an air conditioned space to live in, cable TV to watch, chess/dominoes/tennis/handball/volleyball/ect to play, libraries to read, schools to attend, ect, then chose to believe that. But that belief is very irrational and not based on the passage in question nor does it fit the Bible as a whole.
People who don't like what God says will find all sorts of excuses for why what God said is not what God said.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 24, 2013 11:09 AM |
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This is a reality, Christianity is definitely not just about "peace and love", life is an ongoing struggle full of hardships but we must have faith, hope and love. These are the most important.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 24, 2013 12:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:18, 24 Aug 2013.
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@baklava:
First of all, the flying spaghetti monster is a joke for a REASON. When you say a higher power, it does not become something deeper, it is still the same behavior of our ancestors that thought the lightning was thrown at them, or fountains had souls. It is still the very anthropomorphic idea that since we have a will, the universe must be the result of a will. The very problem with the idea of God is, people who believe in it automatically think they are talking about something deep, but whether you call it a higher power or a mystical force OR the flying spaghetti monster, it is still the self-fullfilling prophecy which basically uses the reasoning of a cave man. Now, I'm not saying that every religious person is a cave man, mind you, I am saying that in this particular area, what they do is not something deeper than what the cave man does, no matter how fancy you gift-wrap the idea.
Therefore, your previous reply to my post is irrelevant. I haven't said atheists are the majority, they are a majority among intellectual circles (philosophers, scientists, artists) sometimes for the last 200-300 years but that wasn't my actual point either. I said, for the first time in history, a serious amount of the population is fed up with the special kind of respect religions demand, this will and should channel into a political voice. So atheists should be vocal about why they are atheists and why they are fed up with religions putting the nose in their life all the time.
Now about your opinions on Hell, I already told you, you can be a non-religious theist (and inspired by Christianity) and believe in that. But although quite open to interpretation texts those holy books are, there is a limit to that. Non-believers going to hell is one of the crucial and main aspects of Abrahamic religions (Judaism is a little different but I won't go there for the sake of simplicity). If you deny that, what you believe in can no longer be called Christianity, it can only be called something inspired by it. Judaism when reformed by Christianity as in your example, was no longer called Judaism was it? The world religions are not perspectives on the same higher power because their theologies are not compatible, on the contrary their theologies attack and try to refute each other. You can not unify them under one, big, happy philosophy just because you want to. The source texts won't let you. The whole perspectivism thing has it's limits.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 24, 2013 12:56 PM |
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Elodin said:
Quote:
And you know that from the Bible?
Yep. Jesus also called Abraham's bosom paradise when he was on the cross.
Wait a second. You say basically, that heaven and hell existed before Jesus with the same "mechanics" of being sorted into one or the other after death - but only for Jews, then? Or what?
Because, if for all, what did Jesus do, exactly? And if not for all - then wny would the rest care ab out stuff God said to Noah?
While, if Jesus made it possible, the rule change would be so massive that Noah was irrelevant as well.
So what happened to people before Jesus?
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This thread is pages long: 
Peace.
