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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 31, 2011 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 20:25, 31 Jul 2011.
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Haven't we already concluded that Randomness is compelty a thing of personal preference.  That actually doesn't have a lot do whether it's single player or multi player.
I for example am mainly a single player guy, but still I prefer when most of the random elements are gone. I like to plan and be prepared of what might happen, the randomness that was in H5 was just painful imo.
I'm confident that there are people that mainly likes the multi player aspect that DOESN'T mind that randomness. I don't think that the idea that random elements are good in SP and bad in MP, to me it's the same.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 09:10 PM |
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Do we really have to discuss that HoMM 5 is completely unbalanced? Luck and Moral? Have nothing to do with randomness, they are simply IMBA (compared with the rest). Invisibility? Imba. In combination with a high level Warlock? Madness. Initiative? Not a bad idea, but wrong level - THREE times faster units? Things might work with initiaves between 15 and 25 or 18 and 28. Battlefield? Too small, with unit speeds not right. Arcane Archers? Griffin Dive?
All this has nothing to so with randomness. It's just bad design. Battles are slaughter, not battles...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 31, 2011 09:26 PM |
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Quote:
There were obvious things that were broken and made mapmakers life miserable (to ban those things every time), but it wasn't exactly the system's fault, more like the individual spell's fault. For instance the Town portal spell I mentioned a few times. There was literally no way around it, once you got it - you couldn't lose unless the situation was totally hopeless or the map was small.
A question for you: How did Town Portal affect the game if both players had it in your optics? I mean it obviously changes game play, no doubt about that ("in field" encounters vs. large scale sieges would be a lot less comon I reckon), but does it favor defender over invader, or is it equal to both? Or is it faction dependant - i.e. defensive factions gain the advantage, because they can always defend in castles?
For me, TP is deffinitely a thing that needs to be there (for single player purposes), but I'm all for a yes/no box in the map setup, which would make it easier to create games without it if you prefered. And yes, it should not be random like in Heroes 2/3, but rather like in Heroes 5, something everybody had access to with time (albeit I didn't at all like the level restriction of Heroes 5, it seemed stupid that you had to magically hit level 20 to get it).
Quote:
Ubihole expressed the will to make the game "balanced". And yeah, as I mentioned above, this means random levelups have to go for the "greater good".
Yeah, good luck with that, now that there are what ... 50 skills on each level that are freely available at the same time ... and they want them all to be balanced? I look forward to seeing that! 
Quote:
On the brighter side, I'm sure players will like the fact that they don't need to pray for 2% skills to get their ultimate skill available now 
Yeah, Ultimates were too hard to get - and too powerful. Bad combo. I don't like the new level dependancy of the class skills, but the Blood/Tears idea of ultimates is good if they get it balanced. And yes, 2 % skills were a nuisance - except when they showed up, then they were double the fun.
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What will happen now?
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 31, 2011 09:33 PM |
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Quote:
In MP, you play to have fun, but it's different "fun" : it's fun of winning. What B0rsuk just doesn't seem to understand is that the most fun in competing against others is... yeah, winning against them. Being better. That's what competition is about.
I only respond to this part because it specifically mentions me. Frankly, I'm more interesting in other posters' opinions, because I don't think you can surprise me anymore.
You jump to conclusions very fast without knowing me.
You'd be surprised. I rarely play Heroes in MP (I played a lot of hotseat games), because I realized I enjoy the game more in single player. No game from the serries (I played 1-4) has decent balance, for one. So players start inventing their own rules, and end up throwing away big chunks of design. This is understandable. Not just spells like Town Portal or Dimension Door, but whole factions like Necropolis. One Heroes 3 map is particularly funny - there are level 7 dwellings across the water, and to my brother's disappointment he was attacked in 2nd week by a necro player who had - I don't remember how many exactly - but certainly a pack of bone dragons. On week 2, from skeleton transformer. Then there's chaining I loathe. Wraith bombs. And then, yes, very random guild spells annoy even me. Waiting for turns. People never finishing 2vs2 games.
I came to the conclusion Heroes is the wrong game for multiplayer. I don't know any TBS with alternating turns which is popular in multiplayer, so as far as I'm concerned there's no proof they can work.
However, I do play a lot of multiplayer games. Starting with Teeworlds http://www.teeworlds.com/ (A very fast paced 2D platformer shooter which makes Quake look sluggish), various FPS games like W:ET, ET:QW, Quake, Quake 3 Fortress.
As for playing to win. I don't enjoy playing against bad opposition. If I were playing to win, I would be joining the team that looks like it's going to win. Hey, the goal is to win doing whatever it takes, right, so why not ? I don't enjoy it. Unless I want to play with a friend on the same team, I will join a losing team. It's much harder, but also more satisfying. Completing objectives in W:ET as a lone engineer, when most of the server plays medics (health advantage) is tricky.
I was in a Q3F clan briefly, but the burocratic side of the things annoyed me. Organizing people, making everyone show up, practicing with the same people. There's no variety, it's stale.
I enjoy research more than optimization and perfect execution of long known strategies. I would be an assembly programmer if perfect optimization was my goal. Two things I enjoy the most: researching strange tactics and winning with underdog sides/equipment. For this reason I enjoy Heroes 3 Fortress.
So far, all MP games I've seen promote optimization/execution as the highest virtue. I haven't seen an MP game which allows room for creativity. MP Heroes is formulaic. Do this, don't do that.
Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic could've been a great game for me, it's multiplayer-centric and designed to offer a very wide variety of choices from the word "go". Creativity, experimentation. Unfurtunately, I discovered the game when it was already fading.
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To no one in particular:
Just read the article I linked. I'm very happy someone (Alcibiades) finally read it. It's eye-opening or at least thought-provoking. It discusses so many things, including chutes&ladders and why it's not a worthless game.
I have some minor reservations, like the author implying that roguelike games are about unpreventable instant deaths from around the corner. This is not inherent feature of roguelike games. Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup strives quite hard to remove instant deaths. After the early game, 95% of player deaths come from tactical mistakes.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 31, 2011 09:40 PM |
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Quote:
Do we really have to discuss that HoMM 5 is completely unbalanced? Luck and Moral? Have nothing to do with randomness, they are simply IMBA (compared with the rest). Invisibility? Imba. In combination with a high level Warlock? Madness. Initiative? Not a bad idea, but wrong level - THREE times faster units? Things might work with initiaves between 15 and 25 or 18 and 28. Battlefield? Too small, with unit speeds not right. Arcane Archers? Griffin Dive?
All this has nothing to so with randomness. It's just bad design. Battles are slaughter, not battles...
These tactics were chose, as striking enemy first and hard is the most valid tactic. Players tend to stack high initiative and high attack / spell damage to inflict one single blow. So-called 'balanced' maps allow them to develop this strategy, unlike standard game maps which are poor and simple.
In H6 it's quite the opposite, damage is low, endurance - high, and every faction is given a ton of healing possibilities. So players complain that battles are too slow, brainless and allow to take down any kind of creeps with no loses. In this situation you may win in the end no matter what strategy is, which makes H6 no better.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 10:03 PM |
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You can't take down EVERYthing. I mean, THINK: People complain about armies can take a lot more while creeping, AND they complain about levelling isn't going fast enough later on.
Now consider what happens when creeping becomes harder because neutrals get tougher.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 31, 2011 10:05 PM |
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Quote:
You can't take down EVERYthing. I mean, THINK: People complain about armies can take a lot more while creeping, AND they complain about levelling isn't going fast enough later on.
Now consider what happens when creeping becomes harder because neutrals get tougher.
Well hopefully they'll fix XP scale? 
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 10:06 PM |
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@B0rsuk:
At this part we can safely agree to disagree then, and no hard feelings ofc.
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 10:33 PM |
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Quote:
For instance, if you're playing a tourney, sure the game is fun, but winning is even more fun. Spirit of competition and stuff like that.
Your argument is flawed. There is no fun playing dull game. Thus, no fun in winning dull game.
Quote:
Now, if you do things exactly the same 10 times and get different result, that means the result isn't exactly really connected to your choices, doesn't it? Meaning it effectively diminishes the impact of skill and ability on the final score.
Again, you are drawing wrong conclusion. Elvin said: Quote:
The truth is that play the same battle 10 times, with different luck/morale/atb and it all be a different battle every time.
Different battle not different result. And that is the main difference, I am talking about game, while you have in mind result. What he said is if for instance your hero play first, you will start a game with let say mass endurance, but if he plays after enemy hero, he may chancel his mass slow with mass haste, or if you are playing empathy elf and morale triggers moving your hero playing before high druids you will again probably skip destructive rain of arrow for lets say mass haste, etc.
Or if his crystal dragons get lucky, favorite enemy hit on 3-4 of your tightly packed units, you will probably surrender instead of continuing, as previously planed 
But this doesn't mean that it is going to be 50:50 type of situation. It wont be 5 win and 5 losses. Most likely 80:20 to a player with better hero, bigger army, better arties, providing they are equally good. And those 20% are mostly influenced with some unbalanced heroes and units, then anything else: arcanes, crystals, haggash, wyngaal,...
Would I rather trade 20% of undeserved wins/losses for more fun game? No doubt about it. Cause, even if I am MP player, first thing is fun, and then competition which is there mainly because of lack of decent AI, and that obviously isn't going to change in H6 either.
Also from my own experience. balance in H5, while strictly talking about league type competition and custom made maps, wasn't that bad. Most game I had was with a guy named Kispagat, 36 overall. I consider him my equal in term of skill. And surprisingly or not, our overall score says: 18-18. Coincidence? No. It's actually law of large numbers (LLN).
Wiki quote: The LLN is important because it "guarantees" stable long-term results for random events. For example, while a casino may lose money in a single spin of the roulette wheel, its earnings will tend towards a predictable percentage over a large number of spins. Any winning streak by a player will eventually be overcome by the parameters of the game.
And when you take in account all aspect of Heroes games: random race, random hero, random external dwelling, arties, spells in mage guild/external, leveling, creeps, weeks,... in the end it all comes to a certain balance. Maybe not in a game or two, but league tournament will give pretty accurate results regarding players skill.
One thing I agree with you: Quote:
That's how I see it at least, hence more balanced game would be more fun to me - it makes it easier to train, to notice the impact of small decisions on gameplay - part of mastering your style. The more random it is, the harder it is to draw conclusion
But I value these things differently. I play Heroes for it complexity, challenge, difficulty to fully grasp everything quickly, quality humans opponents, ability to surprise me in good or bad way,...
All in all, cause it provides mental challenge. There are plenty easy and simple games out there. Why does Heroes have to become one of those.
And funniest thing is that there are two ways to balance this game. First is H6 way: simplification, cost less, more people will associate with it, takes less time... (for instance best spell in H5 was regeneration, now everybody can have it day 1)
Other would be adding even more elements like morale, luck, skills, artees, spells, initiative,..., keeping them random, while in the same time reducing effect of some OP units/spells.. and throw all this coming to a better balance. Takes more time and money? Sure. But if they were pretending to be better not just next sequel, that was the right way.
So, I guess, balance throw even more random elements, equally or of similar significance would be an answer to your last statement (the game's either balanced, or random).
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 31, 2011 11:49 PM |
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Bah,people defending random crap appearing in game randomly is just hopeless.
I dont particularly understand why people continue writing.
People should go an play H5 now and see it for themselves instead of trash talking.
Thank goodness devs dont lsiten to people all the time.If that was the case,we would have pink ponies,spiderman and cyborg pirate ninja jesus as a unit in game.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted August 01, 2011 12:01 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 00:02, 01 Aug 2011.
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Lol some people just like randomness and others don't. Personally I like a combination of them both, however is without a doubt best when these things can be governed by options.
However not all of these thing can be optional ofc(without mods that is), for example the skill system. (oh wait that can be optional.)
But other things like morale and luck.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted August 01, 2011 12:30 AM |
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Quote:
I dont particularly understand why people continue writing.
There seems to be a lot of things you don't understand: logic, math, manners, spelling, writing,... And that's just from those few lines you wrote.
Speaking of not understanding, I am puzzled with some of what you wrote:
Quote:
Bah,people defending random crap appearing in game randomly is just hopeless.
Should crap have a specific form, should they appear non-randomly in a game, is it a way in which they appear or crap itself hopeless?
Also do some of us who already played H5 have to play it again to see it for ourselves, or is this just for those who haven't played it yet? Also what exactly we/they should pay attention on to able to see it?
And most importantly, when precisely devs are listening to a people? They sure as hell have not listen to me. I understand it can't be all the time, but still... Cause I was thinking of a giant turtle that farts insults from 4 rocket launcher with ability to mass confuse for entire battle. As a Champion unit of course. Awesome, right?
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted August 01, 2011 12:42 AM |
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On a second thought it could also be a giant rat that harvest enemy organs and sell them for gold and resources. Inspired by a true event that happened recently in Europe 
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted August 01, 2011 01:32 AM |
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Anyway, back to Heroes 6.
Some skills already seem badly designed:
Also, is learning better than in Heroes 3 ? If level requirements are logarithmic, then it's quite possible learning continues to stink.
Architect I increases population growth. Architect II and III provide bonuses for building structures. What's wrong ? The order is backwards. Unless you find a second town, you build first and accumulate population later.
Economist II and III - same thing. Economist III provides the most basic resources, wood and ore. Will you still need them at that point ? I'd exchange Economist II with III.
Scouting II and III are in backwards order, again ! III shows you unclaimed resources (piles ??!) and artifacts. You need to gain 3 levels to show basic stuff like this ? Meanwhile Scouting II provides extra info about enemy heroes. I think most players will try to collect resources and artifact first, and later, when they feel prepared, seek contact with the enemy.
I would be grateful for an image now. Some skills have prerequisites, and the order matters again. If I remember correctly, Snatch requires Pathfinder. But most resource piles are typically grabbed in the earliest stages of the game, and then heroes start moving. So I think the order should be reversed.
In general, it doesn't make sense to provide bonuses which are useful early in the later stages of a match. View Artifacts spell at level 2 was questionable. Set Elemental Guardian at level 4 was BAAD, because it solved an early game problem with late spells. Building a level 4 implies you've already accumulated lots of rare resources. Some players build guilds at low priority because results are so unpredictable. Then the spell will be available even later.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 01, 2011 01:45 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 02:12, 01 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
I dont particularly understand why people continue writing.
There seems to be a lot of things you don't understand: logic, math, manners, spelling, writing,... And that's just from those few lines you wrote.
....and there seems to be a lot of things you will be hardly able to learn.
Trying to insult me?
From the few lines I read from your quote,you must be really dyslexic considering your inability to undestand common language.
Apparently,maths,spelling,logic and manners are issues within H6....
Not to mention that all the things you wrote are untrue for reasons I dont need to explain.
So you have to pratice your reading skills because you are not particularly good at that.
Speaking of not understanding, I am puzzled with some of what you wrote:
Me too!
Quote:
Bah,people defending random crap appearing in game randomly is just hopeless.
Should crap have a specific form, should they appear non-randomly in a game, is it a way in which they appear or crap itself hopeless?
Also do some of us who already played H5 have to play it again to see it for ourselves, or is this just for those who haven't played it yet? Also what exactly we/they should pay attention on to able to see it?
...
And most importantly, when precisely devs are listening to a people? They sure as hell have not listen to me. I understand it can't be all the time, but still... Cause I was thinking of a giant turtle that farts insults from 4 rocket launcher with ability to mass confuse for entire battle. As a Champion unit of course. Awesome, right?
.....
Your writing just enforces my point.Arguing with people like you is like banging my head Against a brick wall.
Not that it is impossible,it is just not worth the effort. I am not inclined to give knowledge to people because they are ignorant.
@ on the topic.
If people like randomness,we need an artifact that creates inssurance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2L-25xncbo
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted August 01, 2011 02:52 AM |
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Seems we have a new troll on-board. Sink the ship, they are taking over.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 01, 2011 04:33 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:06, 01 Aug 2011.
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If you want to get rid of randomness, scrapping variable damage would be a good start.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 01, 2011 07:35 AM |
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Seraphim > You totally had that one coming at you, so just leave it be. I don't care for the personal arguing to continue just when it had sort of settled, if it continues, I'll just clean it ruthlessly.
____________
What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 01, 2011 07:46 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway, back to Heroes 6.
Some skills already seem badly designed:
Also, is learning better than in Heroes 3 ? If level requirements are logarithmic, then it's quite possible learning continues to stink.
Architect I increases population growth. Architect II and III provide bonuses for building structures. What's wrong ? The order is backwards. Unless you find a second town, you build first and accumulate population later.
Economist II and III - same thing. Economist III provides the most basic resources, wood and ore. Will you still need them at that point ? I'd exchange Economist II with III.
Scouting II and III are in backwards order, again ! III shows you unclaimed resources (piles ??!) and artifacts. You need to gain 3 levels to show basic stuff like this ? Meanwhile Scouting II provides extra info about enemy heroes. I think most players will try to collect resources and artifact first, and later, when they feel prepared, seek contact with the enemy.
I would be grateful for an image now. Some skills have prerequisites, and the order matters again. If I remember correctly, Snatch requires Pathfinder. But most resource piles are typically grabbed in the earliest stages of the game, and then heroes start moving. So I think the order should be reversed.
In general, it doesn't make sense to provide bonuses which are useful early in the later stages of a match.
I definitely agree with this - even more so, because skills are now tied to levels, so you can't pick a level III skill before you are level 15. So it's not only a matter of having to invest 3 skills to get the one that's more useful in early game, it's also a matter of having to level up to level 15, which is not likely to happen anytime near early game.
I guess they are afraid that a skill like Economist III will have people spame their secondary heroes to produce ressources (which of course will be the case), hence they pushed it so far, but on the bottom line, that just makes the skill redundant. Meh.
As for Enlightenment, not sure if the power growth of XP makes it more or less useful, it's mostly an early game skill for sure, but the main (only?) reason to learn it is for Mentor ability in rank II, which allows you to give XP up to no less than 75 % (really, UbiSoft?) of your current level, which effectively means every secondary hero becomes your level minus one. So much for preventing spamming of supportive skills on secondary heroes.
____________
What will happen now?
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 01, 2011 09:47 AM |
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What about free skills from the scholars or witch huts or universities? I'm sure hope they're in so not every level 20 player has exactly the same points and skills. That would be one way to ensure players get some of the less desirable skills and add a hint of randomness to the skill choices.
Also I'm going to miss the pleasure of having a wizard get logistics.
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This thread is pages long: 
