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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 08:00 AM |
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Possible I suppose, I'm more used to terms like rushing and turtling and booming. What does creeping actually mean then, if not a play-style between rushing and turtling?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 30, 2011 08:22 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:22, 30 Jul 2011.
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Creeping is just clearing the neutrals, rushing is heading straight to the opponent after a quick leveling and blazing fast expansion - normally leaving out everything but they key things you need. The two can more or less be combined by picking a route where in the least amount of movement you get the most amount of experience, arties or units at which point you want to press your advantage and attack instead of backtracking to upgrade your army or exploring some more.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 09:22 AM |
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Moderator's note: I'll have to leave a general note about the way some of you post in this thread: Please resect the right of other members to express their oppinion, even if they disagree with you. If you disagree with them, you are always welcome to share your views and engage in a discussion offering your points of view, but don't bash others.
Cleo: The above in particular is aimed at you. When I talked about trolling in the other thread, I was very serious, and I feel once again your offering on the previous page serves only to provoke without offering anything constructive. Consider this a warning, I don't want you to continue that style.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 09:37 AM |
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Quote:
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I find this a bit different from criticism of the creature pool. I think it is more a criticism of town/dwelling conversion. I may be mistaken, but my understanding of people's concerns with the creature pool were the easy availability of the cumulative production of one's towns at any single town, and the consequences of that.
It sounds to me like in other Heroes games it was a huge drag to get a town that was not the same as yours. Conversion gets rid of that drag. I think it comes down to that many people interpret certain things as "strategic" or "interesting" that, personally, I interpret as "annoying" or "pointlessly difficult."
This strikes me as falling into the idealistic divide above. To me, a player has tons of strategic choices every turn no matter what. Where to go, what to do, what creeps to fight, what mines to grab, what buildings to build, what units to put where, what skills to take, etc. etc. Creating "choices" by making logistics a nightmare is undesirable, in my opinion.
I don't have an issue with complexity, I just find that certain logistical issues are not fun and only serve to bog down the game. To me, the game should be about collecting cool stuff and fighting things with your sweet army. Using Heroes 5 as an example, I wasn't a fan of playing remotely optimally involving micromanaging the weekly runaround to collect Wee Folk and Windmills and somehow getting Caravan creatures upgraded and to my main/secondary since they would make it to the castle a day or two later than the rest of my creatures...
I know a lot of the die hards think "But that IS Heroes. That's what Heroes is about!" and I understand that traditional mentality. But, as someone who is relatively new to the franchise, those things stuck out to me immediately as pointless and annoying issues, not strategically positive facets of gameplay.
Allow me to return to this topic for a moment. While I find some of your opinions very interesting, I strongly disagree with the quoted ones. The reason is simple: realism. When playing a strategic game with armies, conquering and such, I value realism very much, even in fantasy settings. Logistics of a real army is a nightmare, therefor I want the ingame logistics to be at least a challenge. I know Heroes are not Settlers or Anno or another "building an army needs a lot of resources" type of strategy, but since we have an adventure map with cities and mines and dwellings (fingers crossed for individual dwellings returning in the future), it would seem logical for the troops to came from this cities and dwellings instead of magically popping anywhere you want them to be. This isn't about nostalgia or making the game pointlessly difficult; it's about the way things should logically be, about realism and needless oversimplifying... and game balance, ofc. If I want to play a simple conflict, I play an instant duel. But on the adventure map, I don't want things that do not make any sense, such as instant troop transports or instant city conversion. And even if they are good for gameplay, they won't stop feeling wrong in my eyes.
Anyway, to return to topic ... I'm myself a bit torn on some of these subjects. On one hand, I'm all for reducing micromanagement - flaggable Watermills, Windmills and fairy-gardens etc. seems to be the only direction to go (wasn't that in Heroes 4? Hmm, another thing they actually got right!) - having to run around each week and claim bonuses both become tiresome and trivial in the long run. Likewise, one of my major gripes with Heroes 5 was the lack of a proper Town Portal spell, because in the end, using several days to run back to your castle or whatever destination you needed to go to becomes boring.
On the other hand, I agree that a part of me feels that the creature pool thing sort of takes away a big part of what the game is about - even if that sort of goes against the idea of reducing micromanagement. But it's something I'm willing to give a try, I can see advantages of that one as well as disadvantages. One can argue that with Town Portals being a structure available in every time, it's waste of micromanagement that you have to pop around all towns to gather forces - but then I think the pool should only be available once Town Portal is build. Thus, one could have creatures originally assigned to individual towns, but once towns are linked by Town Portal, they share their pool.
Town Conversion I see as a good thing, I just don't like the instant conversion, that seems both cheap and trivial. My idea would be something with having to remove old dwellings and/or having a conversion time (which would be longer the more developed town is).
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What will happen now?
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted July 30, 2011 11:42 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 11:44, 30 Jul 2011.
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I also love the Town Portal in this game. Someone has said that it is overpowered and just really broken, I think it's way to early to make such a conclusion. If however it would prove to be that way they could possible remove the hero's all remaining movement points once he has used the spell. So that he for example can't insta teleport to a castle and in the same turn ride out and kill off threatening enemy heroes.
But this is just an idea if it would prove to be to powerful. 
I also agree with the town conversion. Some time for it to be used would be great.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 30, 2011 01:03 PM |
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I think the last map from Archibald's campaign in Heroes II: The Succession Wars will serve as a good example how Heroes6 is more shallow. Particularly if you choose The Crown scenario rather than reinforcements. I played it yesterday.
The map is roughly divided into three parts - on the north there are 3 enemies with 3 castles each. This means 3 of Wizard, 3 of Knight, 3 of Sorceress.
In the middle, there are mere villages of Knight faction, and two forest roads connecting north and south sections. Warlock's city is relatively safe.
In the south, there's player's section, only instead of 3 of each you start with only 1 castle of each type. Each individual enemy has 3x more castles than you, and there are three of them.
You have to defeat Roland, while protecting your Archibald.
You start with three different castles - Barbarian (West, near swamp), Warlock (Middle), and Necromancer (East). They are far away from each other.
The swamp is very rich, having about 3 gold mines and sulfur mines and various assorted stuff. It's still a swamp though, time consuming to traverse. It ends with a shore.
You get 4 decent heroes, all starting with useful skills like Logistics, Wisdom and Leadership. Archibald is relatively weaker, and has no Logistics, but still better than average.
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My first attempt was unsuccessful. Given time, Sorceress in the Northwest will build ships and invade my swamp. Sorceresses will also get their Knowledge into stratosphere and zip around with Dimension Door, and may assassinate Archibald. Sorc faction is a nightmare to fight if allowed to develop. The necromancer hero I gave my crown (+4 to each stat) in the far east was having only mild success. Enemy heroes are better than usual, some with fairly scary might stats. Their part of the map has many reusable stat boosting locations.
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The second time around I already knew which spells I get in magic guilds. Basically they're barely worth building above what you're given. Barbarian town will get Mass Haste, Necromancers will get Mass Slow. One of towns had Blind (then level2 spell, very powerful).
My strategy relied on the fact that there are scattered pendants around the map. One prevents Blind, another Berserk, and yet another Dispel. Initially I gave the crown to Barbarian (because his stats are the most useful when large armies are involved), and loaded him with pendants. I made a hurried tour around the country to get the artifacts and Blind spell.
Because there's no common creature pool, you can't just pool these 3 cities into 1 hero and march to victory (i.e. defeat Roland). Especially that one of them is a necropolis and there would be big morale penalty. So I only used Barbarian troops to get the extremely important mines in the swamp, while thwacking a sorceress or two who already invaded there. Then, my barbarian armed with the pendants and the crown began an offensive in the west forest passage. Meanwhile necromancer in the east was merely guarding the east passage, killing some lesser forces (lesser meaning you take only partial damage, like 20% of the army) to gain experience. But I could never really succeed there without the crown, I was more into intimidating heroes and holding that passage. I still had to retreat a couple of times when a bigger force showed up. There are villages in the middle, the AI has enough resources to develop them. It can't be allowed to take them.
So while my barbarian city was emptied of troops, an annoying sorceress with Dimension Door walked off a ship and simply skipped the Swamp. With no one to defend the Barbarian city, I had to send a Warlock there, while a lesser hero escaped with 1 week worth of barbarian troops to prevent them from being killed. Warlock killed her, and went back to lurking in the middle. His job was to support areas where enemies showed up, either Swamp or the eastern passage. No creature pooling meant I couldn't simply divide my forces into 2 even though I only really fought in 2 areas.
Meanwhile my Barbarian was reasonably succesful in the northwest. Initially he suffered some losses and wasn't able to capture any cities. But he gained experience and happily used Blind and Mass Haste. But he had only 1 city to support him, and always had to wait a long time for reinforcements. Attrition was a big issue, especially that Sorceress has ultra fast Phoenix who is guarranteed to strike first. My trolls, even though sturdy and regenerating, eventually succumbed. I was mostly left with ogre lords, cyclops and a swarm of goblins. Trolls were more of a decoy than a real force.
Even after I conquered my first Sorceress town, I was unable to recruit reinforcements in there. I didn't have enough army slots. It was much like Hannibal's campaign in Roman Empire. I was mostly defeating enemies, but had no smashing victories due to attrition and lack of reinforcements. So I was mostly holding that town, guarding the passage, and always waiting for the sporadic reinforcements.
Fortunately, Sorceress faction was quite occupied with my invasion and ceased their naval invasions. They were also mostly lurking to retake any city as soon as I abandoned it. Necromancer in the east was holding on by the skin of her teeth, and Warlock was defending where he was required at the moment. All the while minor heroes traveled with reinforcements. Eventually Necromancer started getting her ass kicked, and fled to lick wounds in the west, to guard the swamp. Warlock replaced her. This made supply lines even longer, and the 8 hero limit became a serious issue. Even Archibald was traveling with reinforcements and gathering goblins in the swamp.
It was by far the most difficult map of the campaign, the first that actually made me sweat. I was planning very carefully to develop as fast as possible, cut exploration and treasure hunting to minimum. Only important items or mines. The most important challenge - how to not become overwhelmed. The map makes you spread very thin.
I think scenarios as complex and as challenging as that will simply be impossible in Heroes 6. You could just pool all creatures to 1 hero and go for the checkmate. Whenever you conquer something on the other end of the map, you can recruit reinforcements from thousands of kilometers away. What can Heroes 6 offer instead ? All cities under the banner of 1 hero, expert Logistics and mobility boosting artifacts ? Is that the ultimate strategy ?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 03:48 PM |
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Great franchises evolve slowly. Just take Starcraft 2, which changed very little in terms of core gameplay compared to the first.
See, Starcraft 2 is Starcraft 1 with new units and graphics. That's about it. Nearly nothing changed. Not everyone is amazed at it. I'm not for instance, I found it dreadfully boring to re-release the game over 10 years later and call it a "sequel" rather than "remake".
It has a huge fanbase because e-sport is getting very popular and it seemed a fantastic game for all the newbs dreaming about being "pro gamers". You know, a fresh start, a chance to be good and stuff. It was released in the best period there was: Warcraft III's popularity declining (old game, too much pros who spent years on this game playing hours every day and hence are impossible to beat for new players), e-sport rising to glory and a generation of new players wanting to be pro. Yeah, everything was set for SC2. It couldn't fail.
HoMM is different. It was never a successful competitive game. Sure, there's ToH, our tournaments here, and many tourneys of the past, but it never had a unified server dedicated for competitive play, with stats and all that visual BS that attracts stat-crazed people. I think the SP/non-competitive scene is much much bigger. Hence it can't be released as all-pleaser like SC2. It's different, it has a divided SP/MP/Competitive scene in which every group wants something different and it's not coming when there's an outburst of turn-strategy popularity. It's doomed to suffer in fact (compared to SC2) because everyone has his vision and our visions vary incredibly. Safe to say, whatever they do, there will be a buttload of whiners, so heck, I think they're doing the best thing they could possibly do: going for a new game aimed at multiplayer franchise.
Either way, the ammount of QQ and whine this game got before it was even released is unnerving. Guys, can't you just, idk, wait with the whining until it actually gets made?
and this I just have to comment on:
Quote:
All cities under the banner of 1 hero, expert Logistics and mobility boosting artifacts ? Is that the ultimate strategy ?
Surely, getting town portal spell and hence instantly winning no matter what the enemy does and what tactic is applied on L/XL map is TOTALLY better.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 03:56 PM |
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In fact some have thought about it and suggested it - myself even, as part of an initiative to not have this immediately, but it's no good: since Inferno Magic can creep just as well as Haven, it would make no difference, except making things more difficult for all Might heroes.
So in your estimation the combinations that are at a significant disadvantage for creeping are Inferno Might heroes, and perhaps Stronghold?
I've had success creeping with Stronghold by getting Furies quickly, but I don't know how thrilled I am at how much the faction has to lean on a certain building/unit path to compete effectively.
Even when using Inferno Magic heroes, though, I've often found myself bottlenecked a bit on mana. Perhaps that's my own shortcomings as a player, though.
When we talk about creeping, we only have one map to check, and on that map we - or at least I - mean you take your hero on day 1 and creep with it. Additionally you build the tavern, buy a second hero (once your first hero cashed the money to do so on hard) and creep with it INDEPENDENTLY.
There are of course things you may need to combine troops for - Crystal Mine, for example, and at the end of week 1 you may need your town builds, since they did make it harder in 1.2: 14 Imperial Griffins are no pushover.
You need at least Hall of Heroes, Harpies and Upgraded Harpies to get going with Furies, and it helps when you have BOTH heroes coming with Harpies, and if I'm not wrong it's mostly the magic heroes that come with Harpies anyway.
Since you can't let your heroes idling you have two days that you will more or less waste or have the odd loss. Also you need resources on hard difficulty.
I would generally say that ALL might heroes are at a disadvantage because currently they come neither with the creatures that really make the difference nor do they have the mana to cast the spells that make a difference.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 04:08 PM |
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You need at least Hall of Heroes, Harpies and Upgraded Harpies to get going with Furies, and it helps when you have BOTH heroes coming with Harpies, and if I'm not wrong it's mostly the magic heroes that come with Harpies anyway.
Speaking of, and this goes towards another subject, but I sure hope they plan on changing what each hero comes with. It is pretty generic to see all the heroes come with the same type and amount of units. If a hero specializes in a specifc unit, I want to see them have them in their army to start like we've had in previous games.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 30, 2011 04:28 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 16:31, 30 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
All cities under the banner of 1 hero, expert Logistics and mobility boosting artifacts ? Is that the ultimate strategy ?
Surely, getting town portal spell and hence instantly winning no matter what the enemy does and what tactic is applied on L/XL map is TOTALLY better.
I'm not going to respond to it, because it's a fallacy, not an argument. It's called a straw man. You substitute what I said for something superficially similar (essentially, putting words in my mouth). Then you "refute" it, and pretend to refute what I've originally said.
Heroes of Might and Magic 2 does not even have Town Portal spell. You failed at reading comprehension. There's Town Gate, but you can't cast it on expert level. It merely gets you to the nearest town.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 04:32 PM |
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There is, if I'm not wrong - you need the, umm 3 golden artifacts of the Homm 2 Crest.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 30, 2011 04:34 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 16:41, 30 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
There is, if I'm not wrong - you need the, umm 3 golden artifacts of the Homm 2 Crest.
So you need to play a specific scenario or campaign for that. And I think it's only in Price of Loyalty - the expansion pack ? You compare that to something that might casually appear in Mage Guild ? That's like saying ogres are overpowered because you get Ogre Alliance if you take the other path in the evil campaign.
Okay, correction, there is in fact Town Portal in Heroes 2. I just never got it in either of my campaigns so far.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 04:36 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not going to respond to it, because it's a fallacy, not an argument. It's called a straw man. You substitute what I said for something superficially similar (essentially, putting words in my mouth). Then you "refute" it, and pretend to refute what I've originally said.
Hey, I made even a whole thread about eristic once. Check it out.
no it's not eristic, by the way.
What's so bad about my response anyway? You are disappointed about some kind of "ultimate strategy", I'm asking whether ultimate strategies in the HoMM version you're praising is any better. If you ask me, logistics is WAY better cause it's nowhere near uncounterable like town portal was (especially in Heroes 3. In heroes 2 it was too rare to have THAT much of an impact.)
There's always an ultimate strategy. Why's one better than the other? I don't get it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 04:54 PM |
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Hence it can't be released as all-pleaser like SC2. It's different, it has a divided SP/MP/Competitive scene in which every group wants something different and it's not coming when there's an outburst of turn-strategy popularity. It's doomed to suffer in fact (compared to SC2) because everyone has his vision and our visions vary incredibly. Safe to say, whatever they do, there will be a buttload of whiners, so heck, I think they're doing the best thing they could possibly do: going for a new game aimed at multiplayer franchise.
Excuse me, but because they can't please everyone (in your optics), the best thing is to aim for multiplayer? Why is that exactly - because you play multiplayer? Or ...?
And while they can't please us all as individuals, I don't see why they couldn't aim at all styles of play, if they wanted (and I'm not even saying they didn't). After all, if you have a game that's functioning for multiplayer, it doesn't take a lot more to make it functional for singleplayer, other than an at least marginally capable AI.
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Either way, the ammount of QQ and whine this game got before it was even released is unnerving. Guys, can't you just, idk, wait with the whining until it actually gets made?
Well, isn't that sort of what the beta is about - trying the game, and sharing your oppinion? I think that's pretty natural.
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I would generally say that ALL might heroes are at a disadvantage because currently they come neither with the creatures that really make the difference nor do they have the mana to cast the spells that make a difference.
I think this is a very important point, and that is why I would want magic units and spells to be less potent in very early game. Yes, it will slow down early game phase, and that's a good idea in my optics.
Suggestions could include:
- Only make upgraded unit being able to resurrect.
- Add cooldown on units' use of abilities (meh, poor solution, but it would serve the job).
- Modify spell effects to connect to level in magic skill, so that for instance "Heal" only Resurrects once Light II is learned, and "Mass Heal" only Resurrects once Light III is learned. This would mean that Magic Heroes can't resurrect before level 5, and mass resurrect before level 15.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 04:56 PM |
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And yes, please keep the tone civil. 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 04:58 PM |
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Excuse me, but because they can't please everyone (in your optics), the best thing is to aim for multiplayer? Why is that exactly - because you play multiplayer? Or ...?
Well, I think the game's longevity nowadays is tightly connected to its success as multiplayer game. So yeah - if they want it to last, this is probably the best way if they have to, you know, choose.
Can they make a game both types of players (SP/MP) will like? I think it's doable, but significantly harder than making a game for one of those groups mainly, because many options are antagonistic towards each other for SP and MP.
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Well, isn't that sort of what the beta is about - trying the game, and sharing your oppinion? I think that's pretty natural.
Feedback's fine. "Feature X/Y/Z is bad" is fine. "Omg this game's gonna suck, it's beyond redemption" is just whining
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 05:06 PM |
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Feedback's fine. "Feature X/Y/Z is bad" is fine. "Omg this game's gonna suck, it's beyond redemption" is just whining
Not if it is beyond redemption. 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 30, 2011 05:07 PM |
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well yeah but we'll know that once it's done, right? And not two months before the game's even released
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 30, 2011 05:10 PM |
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True at that. I guess we should limit ourselves to say "the beta is beyond redemption!" 
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Austere
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 30, 2011 05:11 PM |
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Quote:
When we talk about creeping, we only have one map to check, and on that map we - or at least I - mean you take your hero on day 1 and creep with it. Additionally you build the tavern, buy a second hero (once your first hero cashed the money to do so on hard) and creep with it INDEPENDENTLY.
There are of course things you may need to combine troops for - Crystal Mine, for example, and at the end of week 1 you may need your town builds, since they did make it harder in 1.2: 14 Imperial Griffins are no pushover.
You need at least Hall of Heroes, Harpies and Upgraded Harpies to get going with Furies, and it helps when you have BOTH heroes coming with Harpies, and if I'm not wrong it's mostly the magic heroes that come with Harpies anyway.
Since you can't let your heroes idling you have two days that you will more or less waste or have the odd loss. Also you need resources on hard difficulty.
I would generally say that ALL might heroes are at a disadvantage because currently they come neither with the creatures that really make the difference nor do they have the mana to cast the spells that make a difference.
I completely agree. I generally play on Normal so my tactic is often Tavern first hire a hero and stack units on my main, the Secondary picks up the +20% to gold/resources found skill and the main goes for the Dolmen of Knowledge or whatever it's called. The secondary collects enough gold to hire a third hero, who follows the other two. Since I play on Faster, the Dolmen levels up all my heroes to level 3 by the beginning of day 2. My main breaks right and grabs the Crystal mine first and the Ore usually by end of day 3. The third, who kept his army, breaks left and clears the artifact, chests, Lumber Mill and the two high resource areas on that side.
Usually my main is able to clear all but the dwelling, the +magic defense and hard artifact creep without any help from town. By the time he's cleared around the top ring of the zone, he's in range of the town to be upgraded/reinforced. I usually try to break the dwelling for the extra units and then take on the last two. Usually I've cleared my area by the end of week one, sometimes I can break into the neutral area with the second crystal mine to the east, but that's usually faction specific.
Anyway, I agree with your problems with Might heroes. I've found the same. Warcries simply don't help enough when it comes to creeping, and the low mana and typically poor creature choices are no help. Often, even if I choose a Might hero as my main, I'll pick Magic secondaries and swap the armies around so the secondary clearer (as opposed to gatherer) gets stuck with the Might hero's army. All of which I don't think is particularly great for balance.
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I think the last map from Archibald's campaign in Heroes II: The Succession Wars will serve as a good example how Heroes6 is more shallow. Particularly if you choose The Crown scenario rather than reinforcements. I played it yesterday.
Nearly nothing you talked about in this entire long description of this campaign really supported your conclusion.
I'm simplifying a bit, but what it boils down to is that you're saying because you can convert a town and therefore have all creatures of the same type that the strategy and difficulty would be wildly different in Heroes 6 (given this specific example of a specific scenario of a specific game 4 generations the current game's predecessor).
I'm not convinced. Much of the difficulty you described: defense vs. offense, priority targets, building choices, collection and expansion vs. rushing and attacking are all maintained in Heroes 6. Essentially, you are saying that all of this PLUS the different town types makes Heroes 2 far more complicated and difficult and therefore better.
Presume the scenario is the same for Heroes 6. Despite having all the same units, you still have to divide those units effectively between defense and offense. Presumably with three faction opponents each with three towns (where you yourself have only three towns combined) you can't just stack and attack. They can backstab you and you have a long way to go... 9 towns in total... before you can clear them out. I guess you can bee-line for this Roland guy but again, if the division of your army is poor you can get backstabbed and you're all-in on rushing to Roland and successfully killing him. What if they get to Archibald first while you're doing this?
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This thread is pages long: 
