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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 10:32 AM |
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Having played all the factions, creeping is much much more tedious, difficult and risky for Stronghold and Inferno than it is for the other three.
If you want a game where all the factions play the same go play Settlers of Catan or something.
LOL
he is pointing out that those factions are harder to play without actually getting an advantage for that hard play.
It is a valid point,and your suggestion is invalid.
He mentions that creeping is more difficult, but creeping is, if I'm understanding it right, just one of several strategies for expansion.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2011 10:52 AM |
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It's the only one actually  Unless you clear your area and claim the key locations fast enough, your opponent will come knocking with a momentum you are unlikely to contain. Especially now that dwellings can be converted and you need as much crystal as possible if not more. At least it doesn't seem to be like H5 where half the factions were fast creepers and the rest medium to slow.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 29, 2011 10:54 AM |
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At least it doesn't seem to be like H5 where half the factions were fast creepers and the rest medium to slow.
Doesn't it? The factions with healers creep fast and those without - not so fast. Not much of a difference.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2011 11:00 AM |
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Cannot be compared to stalker/fury creeping versus crossbowman or shieldguard/bear creeping. All I can say is lvl 17-18 end of week 2.
35 emeralds toasted on the last day of the 2nd week.
H6 is light years ahead of such imbalance, not to mention that it's still early.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 29, 2011 11:18 AM |
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It looked ridiculous before, yes, but it's far from balanced now. The "invisible" creatures in TotE were one of the greater balance absurds but I can't say that it's much better to have easy to use resurrection from day 1 for certain factions and none (or difficult to use) for others while the latter have little to compensate for this insufficiency.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 11:49 AM |
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Untrue and oversimplified.
There is a serious disbalance between Might and Magic in the initial creeping stages due to the fact that in all factions might heroes come without life-saving creatures OR mana. Which leaves Necromancy, which isn't too great in the beginning either.
That balance is way more off than the faction balance.
You can pretty easily correct the problem, by transferring the Healer creatures from the Magic to Might heroes's starting forces (leaving magic to go for spells), and to give both Stronghold and Inferno a creature that can do the trick as well, preferably the Dreamwalker for Stronghold and the Breeder for Inferno (which called called Reincarnation for them).
Having the odd Elite creature in the starting force would make sense anyway.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted July 29, 2011 12:25 PM |
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Or they could bring back the first aid tent in some fashion.
I don't really understand why they cut those machines entirely, for that matter. I can see why they'd want to remove the ammo cart, but otherwise...
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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radox
Known Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 12:29 PM |
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Or they could bring back the first aid tent in some fashion.
I don't really understand why they cut those machines entirely, for that matter. I can see why they'd want to remove the ammo cart, but otherwise...
Why?
Btw, there is another bug in the game - the Shamans have access to 6 magic schools, not 5 like the others.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 12:34 PM |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 29, 2011 01:22 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 29, 2011 02:11 PM |
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You can pretty easily correct the problem, by transferring the Healer creatures from the Magic to Might heroes's starting forces (leaving magic to go for spells) ...
That wouldn't really make sense, since the healing units are magic units that do magic damage, and hence sit naturally with the magic heroes. Even if it would solve the problem, it would be outright atmitting that the system is a failure, as it makes no sense to have for instance Cleric heroes (or whatever they are currently called) start with Marksmen and have Knights start with Sisters. Better then to have all heroes start with either a bit of all three, or only the "neutral" unit (for Haven, that would be Sentinels).
I do like the idea of giving Breeder some sort of regeneration ability, since currently the name "Breeder" doesn't make much sense with what the unit does (ok, it shoots Imps!?), and apart from that it sucks ...
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 29, 2011 02:25 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:27, 29 Jul 2011.
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Untrue and oversimplified.
There is a serious disbalance between Might and Magic in the initial creeping stages due to the fact that in all factions might heroes come without life-saving creatures OR mana. Which leaves Necromancy, which isn't too great in the beginning either.
That balance is way more off than the faction balance.
You can pretty easily correct the problem, by transferring the Healer creatures from the Magic to Might heroes's starting forces (leaving magic to go for spells), and to give both Stronghold and Inferno a creature that can do the trick as well, preferably the Dreamwalker for Stronghold and the Breeder for Inferno (which called called Reincarnation for them).
Having the odd Elite creature in the starting force would make sense anyway.
That will solve nothing, just by building the dwelling of the respective healer and buying the first population which can happen on day 1 on whatever difficulty will server the same purpose as starting with healers (you can buy a secondary hero with healers to have more of then if you need them). It's not a Might vs. Magic issue either but a faction-specific thing. If Inferno and Stronghold receive some means to handle their losses, then yes, it will work. Right now they have no access to such tools. In a long game they could eventually even the odds somehow but during the first weeks they are in disadvantage and particularly Inferno (Stronghold could use split stacks of Goblins + Heroic Strike to take down large numbers of neutral walkers at least).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 02:28 PM |
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I find the point with "magic" units not really convincing, Alci, as Magic Heroes start with other creatures as well.
On the contrary, you might just as well say, that it makes a lot of sense that way, when you consider the fact that those units do magic DAMAGE. Heroes, however, do magic damage when magic and might damage when might.
That means, for example, that MIGHT heroes with their current armies are very vulnerable against Ghosts, because they can't really damage them with their exclusive might attack.
Tactically spoken, it makes a lot of sense to give MIGHT heroes creatures that can do MAGIC damage, and vice versa, because both are in need of what they do NOT deal themselves.
In the end, it's a petty complaint anyway, if that balances things.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 02:30 PM |
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[ In a long game they could eventually even the odds somehow but during the first weeks they are in disadvantage and particularly Inferno (Stronghold could use split stacks of Goblins + Heroic Strike to take down large numbers of neutral walkers at least).
I don't know what you have been playing, but Inferno Magic heroes don't have any problem at all.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 29, 2011 02:40 PM |
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I find the point with "magic" units not really convincing, Alci, as Magic Heroes start with other creatures as well.
On the contrary, you might just as well say, that it makes a lot of sense that way, when you consider the fact that those units do magic DAMAGE. Heroes, however, do magic damage when magic and might damage when might.
Well to me it would seem completely counterintuitive, to have the Might hero start with what is obviously a Magic unit (even if they don't have "spells" anymore as in Heroes 5) and vice versa. If you find that logical, I guess that would work for you. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with the last paragraph you wrote.
As to address Zenofex' point - Inferno can still pick Regeneration (Earth Magic) which works pretty well for them - a bit more combersome than Heal, but still very much doable.
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 29, 2011 02:40 PM |
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They are better than the Inferno Might heroes at creeping but still slower than any heroes from factions with healers and depend on their mana pools - which the healing creatures obviously don't.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 29, 2011 02:47 PM |
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True at that, at least when you start on a location with no nearby well and you can't regenerate mana in town (really, Ubisoft?).
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2011 03:05 PM |
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No, that's not right. I've played a lot of Inferno, and you can creep as fast with a magic Inferno hero than with any other hero - as fast as you want. And I've played on Fast and Hard.
It's no problem.
It IS a problem for Stronghold magic hero, since they start with only 20 Mana which is bad for mana regeneration - as soon as they use a spell they are out, so they need to level-up fast.
A Sanctuary might hero is worse off than an Inferno Magic.
The bottom line is that it's an imbalance between what a might hero can do and what a magic hero can do, and while the might heroes of Sa, H and N can at least recruit a very few magic creatures by recruiting the newly built "healer units" (even though you don't get that many immediately after building), the Might heroes of Stronghold and Inferno can't even do that, and in the end THAT is most compelling reason to give them a resurrection ability as well, or no one at all.
Of course that will make all factions more equal, but the abilities and spells are so decisive that there doesn't seem to be another option than either handing them to everyone or no one.
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Austere
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 29, 2011 03:30 PM |
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Can you argue that less resources = more strategy ? To me, Heroes of Might and Magic 6 seems to be like Command and Conquer 4.
Yes, I think you can. I offered a possible side. I'm not saying there's not strategy whatsoever in having multiple resources, I'm just saying I think it's more complicated than more resources = more strategy, hands down, and was playing a bit of devil's advocate for the new system.
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And what is optimal play ? Say you have two cities. Do you use those gems to upgrade unicorns ? Or enable Minotaurs in another city ? Or you can build the next level of Mage Guild, and you won't have gems for either. Or you can upgrade unicorns, enable minotaurs, but at the cost of trading sulfur, meaning your dragons will be delayed.
There are multiple choices with just two towns. If there's another town on horizon, you may choose between conquering and developing it, or using the excess resources on your magic guild. What resources are available guides not just the way you build, but the path of your conquest.
To me, this is just a list of things you can spend your money on. Regardless of the number of resources, provided there are ways to spend your money, spending your money will have various strategic iterations. It doesn't really add much weight to include "two towns." Naturally, two towns require more choices than just one. The same is true for Heroes 6 just as it is true for Heroes 5.
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In the same way as spending the same point on Logistics or Ballistics is very strategic. When you have too many things costing the same resource, the choice generally becomes easier because it's hard to make many things equally interesting (balanced).
For the same reason I think the skill/magic system will be a disaster. It could work in theory when skills are very balanced. But I doubt they manage to pull it off, there will be some highly desirable skills and lots of junk. Players will end up sticking to very specific build. For example always healing first (it's basically resurrection, right ?), for factions who can manage without it - logistics.
I agree that I have a few issues with the skill system as is. I've felt since day one that there should be more consequences to a player's choices. Playing with it a bit more, I find that investing a skill point in the first place is a larger consequence than I first thought it would be, but I could still go for a bit more restriction. For example, you can't pick Fire magic after picking Water magic, or something. I also don't like that you can avoid investing any skills in the Fire tree for the entire game and then pick up Frenzy at level 15. It doesn't feel right to me.
However, you are right that from game to game the enticing skills are often the same as the ones that were enticing from the game before.
A lot of the skills are just not effective or powerful enough to take. In my opinion, this is the area of the game that requires the most effort to tweak appropriately.
Ultimately, though, whether the skill system is or is not flawed does not really hold water as an argument against the resource system.
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Heroes 3 may have been full of pointless clutter and fake choices, but simplicity for the sake of simplicity is not what I want.
?? This makes no sense to me. Games should be simple, if not strategically so, in the way they operate and work. One of the most successful game companies in the world, Blizzard, has founded its entire company on the "Othello" principle: "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master."
If the choice is simplicity or "pointless clutter and fake choices", simplicity wins hands down. Especially in an installment of the series that is on some level attempting to function as a gateway for new players.
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Because with built-in first strike and shooters, killing stuff without losses wasn't easy enough. What's wrong with taking losses ? Also, playing strategically in a strategic game is considered bad now ?
Taking losses is understandably bad. Some are fine, but too many and you've lost a week or more worth of production in order to kill some creeps. Sometimes it is unavoidable, but I think it is quite obvious how a player who takes few or no losses during their creeping will have an advantage even over a player who loses just one or two units every other creep encounter.
Of course playing strategically is desirable, but I think it is undesirable to have to play at a high strategic level, in a way that is often meticulous and slow, when doing a common, multiple times a turn action that is essential for interacting with the game world.
Take Heroes 5. I was creeping much better after doing some digging in the forums and learning plans like having a single stack as bait along the opposite corner from my shooter/defender group and having multiple single stacks as retaliation absorbers. But having that as a baseline level of competency for creeping remotely well is bad for the game because plans like that are not going to be obvious for a newcomer and they will suffer just to clear the creeps around their base. Indeed, in Heroes 6 to use a plan like that in the same way as Heroes 5 you even have to invest a point in Tactics!
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Creature pool - you no longer have to think how to make units from different factions fit together in your strategy. Do you develop two weaker armies and outmaneuver opposition ? Do you gather stronger creatures from both towns, invest in Leadership skill to improve your morale ?
I find this a bit different from criticism of the creature pool. I think it is more a criticism of town/dwelling conversion. I may be mistaken, but my understanding of people's concerns with the creature pool were the easy availability of the cumulative production of one's towns at any single town, and the consequences of that.
It sounds to me like in other Heroes games it was a huge drag to get a town that was not the same as yours. Conversion gets rid of that drag. I think it comes down to that many people interpret certain things as "strategic" or "interesting" that, personally, I interpret as "annoying" or "pointlessly difficult."
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Heroes in previous games were a resource. I just finished the last scenario in Heroes 2 Archibald campaign (after the Crown, not reinforcements). It's a large map. Having only 8 heroes felt like a painful restriction. I constantly had to think what's more important at the moment - scouting, resource gathering (static), mine capturing, sending reinforcements (3 different castles... send reinforcements which way ?). Do I capture mines AND pick up piles of resource at the same time, or capture mines first and pick up piles at a more convenient time ? It's a hard scenario if you don't take the reinforcements from the previous one.
If Heroes was needlessly complex for you, maybe you don't like the game as much as you think you do.
This strikes me as falling into the idealistic divide above. To me, a player has tons of strategic choices every turn no matter what. Where to go, what to do, what creeps to fight, what mines to grab, what buildings to build, what units to put where, what skills to take, etc. etc. Creating "choices" by making logistics a nightmare is undesirable, in my opinion.
I don't have an issue with complexity, I just find that certain logistical issues are not fun and only serve to bog down the game. To me, the game should be about collecting cool stuff and fighting things with your sweet army. Using Heroes 5 as an example, I wasn't a fan of playing remotely optimally involving micromanaging the weekly runaround to collect Wee Folk and Windmills and somehow getting Caravan creatures upgraded and to my main/secondary since they would make it to the castle a day or two later than the rest of my creatures...
I know a lot of the die hards think "But that IS Heroes. That's what Heroes is about!" and I understand that traditional mentality. But, as someone who is relatively new to the franchise, those things stuck out to me immediately as pointless and annoying issues, not strategically positive facets of gameplay.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 29, 2011 04:16 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:17, 29 Jul 2011.
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To me, Heroes is about atmosphere, something this game appears to be sorely lacking.
I don't play Heroes games to feel superior (which I'm in no position to do, these games are crazy hard for me even on Easy  )
but to experience great music, nice visuals and interesting stories.
So thanks, Ubi, for respecting Caneghem's vision by catering to competitive gamurz and the mainstream market.
You're guaranteed to make tons of money, so good on you. *Blah*
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