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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 29, 2013 03:35 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:47, 29 Jun 2013.
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There doesn't have to be a plot, there's still a BODY. I mean I can understand things like if you're into the Moonlight Sonata and if you're listening to it from a CD, in which each part is another track, you may sometimes listen to the allegretto - attacca part only, or there was this day that I liked the piano solo on Coltrane's Blue Train so much, I constantly skipped the rest and listened to only that part for like 6 or 7 times. What you say is something else:
Quote:
Also, when I listen to a piece of music, I rarely let it play from the beginning to end. I sometimes listen to the first 15 seconds or so, then jump 20 seconds ahead, listen for 15-20 seconds again, then skip ahead again. Even if it's a relatively short piece of music.
This is not listening to music, it's scanning it. When you get a new album, this is the way you have a general idea about the songs and then you actually listen to the ones you like. So yours seem like a problem of concentration and very very limited attention span.
Also, my generation is the last that went through being a teenager without the ability to download mp3's, we used to buy like 3-4 albums a week, at most. So we actually had the time to listen to things we had closely. Sometimes a song you didn't like in the first place took a little time to warm up to, sometimes you discovered a song you really didn't notice earlier etc etc. Nowadays, people download chunks of discographies in hours, scan them immediately and sometimes forget that they even have this or that album when two day passes.
@JJ:
When it comes to Rock we have the opposite tastes, I consider guys like Steve Vai, the decay of Rock, soulless virtuosity like a circus animal. I consider fusion as the worst of both jazz and rock. The sound is usually cold, it has no groove. A perfect example of a rock song, that's still in touch with its R&B roots but also has something more and unique is Jumping Jack Flash. Now, I'd take that kind of rock over Steve Vai any day. Just listen to him doing Hendrix's Red House and then listen to the Hendrix original and you'll see what I mean by cold and soulless.
@Sal:
Quote:
for me the XXth century music, including all styles is a disastrous downgrade of everything that was done before, cutting nearly all of the possibilities we could dream of, but now being "spiritually" accessible because of this to everyone-which is double edged sometimes.
I think the recording industry changed a lot. It is not mostly about the sophistication of the composition now but rather the individuality of the sound. Also, when we listen to the 18th century, keep in mind, we listen to what has stood the test of time (for a long time), if we take a look at ALL 18th century music, I'm sure we'll find some very popular at the time but uncreative, banal, cliche stuff that has already been forgotten now.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2013 04:17 AM |
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Perhaps listening for 15-20 seconds before going to the next part is an exaggeration. Upon paying attention to my listening habits, it's more like 40 seconds to a minute. Sometimes I'll sit through a 3-minute track and only jump once, skipping the first 10 seconds or so. Fortunately, the right way to enjoy music depends on the listener's taste. 
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 29, 2013 04:22 AM |
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I don't think what you talk about is about taste at all but sure, it's none of someone else's business, it's your ears.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 29, 2013 04:36 AM |
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Sounds more like ADHD than taste to me, but then again I once knew someone wouldn't drink hot chocolate without a gooey mound of cheddar cheese at the bottom of the mug, so you never know. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2013 04:58 AM |
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Btw has anyone listened to the Star Wars music when played by the best orchestra in the world? Try it, it is simply amazing.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 29, 2013 05:18 AM |
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Yes, it's good. The ambiance is awesome too, I really envied the people sitting on the grass. I got the first trilogy on this, Williams conducts himself, the version in here is also good:
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2013 01:57 PM |
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@ Sal
Quote:
I don't know what you call contemporary music (which style?), for me the XXth century music, including all styles is a disastrous downgrade of everything that was done before, cutting nearly all of the possibilities we could dream of, but now being "spiritually" accessible because of this to everyone
On the contrary. What has changed, are the possibilities for people to actually learn to play an instrument on one hand and listen to music on the other. This was different, obviously, 500 years ago, when music was played either in churches or for the amusement of the nobility or on markets/festivities by travelling artists and so on (who would play the same kind of trivial, but catchy tunes you can hear today in a 3-minutes piece).
Then there is the way people DANCE which is quite important - historically and cultural (there is a history of dance in every culture). The dances in times of classical music were extremely asexual, more a kind of ceremonial thing than real dance - plus classical ballett, also more an abstract thing than a BODY thing.
20th century music is more or less mirroring the sexual liberalization with increasing importance of RHYTHM (and dance). That's what ROCK music is.
However, there are great componists even in popular music. I would point to Frank Zappa, for example, whom I would quite easily compare with the classics.
@ Artu
Quote:
@JJ:
When it comes to Rock we have the opposite tastes, I consider guys like Steve Vai, the decay of Rock, soulless virtuosity like a circus animal. I consider fusion as the worst of both jazz and rock. The sound is usually cold, it has no groove. A perfect example of a rock song, that's still in touch with its R&B roots but also has something more and unique is Jumping Jack Flash. Now, I'd take that kind of rock over Steve Vai any day. Just listen to him doing Hendrix's Red House and then listen to the Hendrix original and you'll see what I mean by cold and soulless.
I just have a broader range of taste here, and I was citing Steve Vai only as an example for virtuosity in contemporary music. ALL virtuosity tends to convey the impression of soullessness because it needs an extreme amount of practise and technique, and there are not many people who are able to WRITE music that actually needs this kinf of virtuosity. There is a difference between the virtuosity of a musician and the quality of composition.
Steve Vai may well be the best electric guitar player in the world, but is composing qualities can't compete. I have two concert DvDs with him, both very long, and his GOOD stuff is amazing.
If you haven't done so I can only urge you to buy or rent the DvD ZAPPA PLAYS ZAPPA. This is absolutely fabulous - and as additional boon it features Steve Vai on a couple of songs, and what he plays there is not soulless, but simply breathtaking.
Jeff Beck and his Fusion Jazz is something else - he's a different kind of master with a slightly different kind of virtuosity and HIS style of Fusion Jazz is definitely not the worst of both, more like a summit of Fusion with the additional plus that he plays other things as well. "Brush with the Blues" is as breathtaking as his version of "A Day in the Life", the piece of art called "Angel (Footsteps)" or the old stomper Rollin' and Tumblin'.
If you have the time, go to youtube and listen 1:30 to a Jeff Beck song called "Blackbird", which is a duett of a guitar and a blackbird.
What I was trying was to find a way for Sal to "enter" contemporary music - I was just trying to find something Sal might like, and that's certainly not ROCK music. Personally I like a lot of stuff, because ALL styles have really good things to offer.
Classic stuff, as well as complex contemporary stuff needs ATTENTION, so that is something I will listen to RARELY.
Speaking of Jimi Hendrix - the difference between him and Vai is, that his abilities as a composer MATCHED his abilities as a guitar player - the SONGS are fabulous, not just his guitar play. And if you look at his interpretations of the classics or of the Bob Dylan songs he covered ... I mean, All Along the Watchtower might well be the best cover ever, and you can do that only when you are a COMPOSER as well as good with an instrument. (That's the same thing with Frank Zappa - great guitar player.)
A song doesn't need virtuosity, though, to be good. Jumpin' Jack Flash is a great song. There may be better examples for what ROCK MUSIC is all about, but I think
This One
is capturing the essence just fine: It's sweaty, it's stomping, it's sex. This one has the additional advantage to demonstrate the power of a riff by falling in. (Jumpin' Jack Flash STARTS with it.) Here it starts with the "background section", then the guitar drone is swelling to explode in that monster riff.
Also an example for a really good cover, mind you.
Anyway - I do like a lot of music; the variety is a good thing.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 29, 2013 02:49 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:24, 29 Jun 2013.
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There are stuff by Jeff Beck that I like, I generally like all the guys who started out in the British Blues Bloom. It's Fusion I find... how do I say this... you know how blues players talk about each other like "he got it, man." Well, Fusion ain't got it, same with Steve Vai. Now, I remind you that I love classical jazz (including Be-Bop), got nothing against virtuosity or long solos or sophisticated harmony, as long as there is a musical taste behind it. (Also a standard Jazz player is usually much better than the so-called Rock virtuoso in terms of technical superiority.) Guys like Steve Vai has a missing element FOR ME that can't be compensated with technical skill, there may be exceptional works of course, I haven't listened to all of his discography. The thing is, if I wanted to be impressed by technical mastery alone, Rock wouldn't be the place I was going to be looking for in the first place anyway.
There is a kind of dirty, simple feeling to real Rock you can only learn to detect by listening to old Blues for a long time. Blues is the mother load, it's the juice of all Rock, Soul, Funk, etc. And when you listen to 30's 40's 50's Blues and capture the feeling of it, it gives you BS detector in Rock nothing else can. There is a difference between Poison and Guns n Roses, only Blues listeners can hear, one got it the other don't. I agree variety is good, but your examples tell me somehow your period range is like late 60's to today in general. Where as 60's is quite the modern times for my ears, since I start from the 20's.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2013 03:42 PM |
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I think, it's wrong to say, that a whole style hasn't got it - I prefer to RATE individually. Jeff Beck's fusion stuff is pretty unique, and the reason for this is his uniqueness as an instrumentalist and the quality of the musicians he works with.
Even a style like rap/hip hop which from the musical point of view an abomination offers a couple of really good stuff. For example Snoop Dogg's debut "Doggystyle" is a great album. Or Public Enemy's "Fear of a Black Planet" (as the culmination point of their first 3 album issues). Or the Beastie Boys.
Everything is some kind of "fusion"; Grandmaster Flash came from Funk and built the bridge. Run DMC got stardom by fusing Rock into it with Aerosmith's Walk this Way. And what kind of fusion is the Gorillaz' "Clint Eastwood"?
And listening closely you can hear something like a "funky" note with a couple of Hendrix tunes, especially when played live.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 29, 2013 04:09 PM |
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I agree there are exceptions, in fact there can be many exceptions. Generalization is inevitable while talking about this stuff.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 30, 2013 05:02 PM |
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Hendrix was a true prodigy; his route to music would sort of be like Beethoven becoming a master after learning to play the piano from the back-side of the keys.  Too bad he played too many drugs and we didn't hear the riffs of his later years. He could have went south of course and created boredom's experimental-failure-junk but maybe not.
I would like to have heard him do something like Wolf Hoffman's cover of Hall of the Mountain King. I don't know a thing about Hoffman (other than I think he's German) but that's my favorite classical-rock tune. <L>
I saw some fine guitarists over the years; Howe(Yes), Blackmore (Deep Purple) and most of the rest of the old list; I share a lot of the same likes as JJ an Artu but an odd thing happened to me in later years...
Don't get me wrong, music is music and that means it is all about moods with me but I discovered another level of quality when it comes to axemen. I'll call it; "The art of the short-rift".
<imo> There are many guys that have done great solos but not many that craft short runs, that do for a song heard on the radio, that the solo does for live performance. I may sound a little nutz but listen for the short guitar-solo on Ride my See-saw and see if you feel the same way.
I don't know what it is really, other than less is more but I don't think so; I think it's a bit more than a cliche'; it's something else; it's too long for a "display" but too short for a "hint"; more- of the perfect-run that's solely created for the song and not a second more of anything else.
One of my favorite rock solos is Paul Kossoff's brilliant piece found inside Free's, All Right Now.
For what it's worth, I play guitar and can do some Ok run-stuff however, as some have already said, there's more to it than technical execution it's a matter of soul or <iow> an expression from deep-within. Today, the Blues are easy to communicate, it's the Sweet-stuff that takes the real skill. 
____________
"Do your own research"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2013 06:48 PM |
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The Rolling Stone made a lot of polls about "best" stuff - I don't think, there is any "best" stuff, only "excellent". (and of course the rest).
The classic single needs indeed a short solo, and in my opinion Eddie van Halen is first nominee for "excellent" solo in that department, the thing on MJ's "Beat It".
The thing is, when I learned that the solo we hear is actually spliced together from a couple of tries, it took away a lot of the "thrill" actually - but that's not so different from Hendrix's solo work on "All Along the Watchtower", which means only, that for these things credit has to go to the producers as well, who obviously helped "making" it.
That's what makes live performances so good. I mean, Jennifer Batten plays the Beat It solo note for note on an MJ tour (you can watch her rather superior effort on youtube), but of course she is only lending her technical precision to the composer genius of Eddie and the producer.
So, excellent LIVE performance, guitar work, to-the-point soloing:
Jimi Hendrix plaing Purple Haze at Berkely Community Centre in 1970
Smashing.
For what Hendrix would have done, I suppose he'd eventually been driven to a fusion of Jazz, Funk and Blues, somewhat along the line what the Red Hot Chili Peppers with John Frusciante did, except somewhat more jazzy, that is - longer songs with longer instrumental parts. A lot earlier than 1990, though.
But that's just speculation
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 01, 2013 02:55 PM |
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Smashing indeed. Thanks for the link.
Purple Haze and Stone Free were my "themes" for 1971, in 70 it was All Right now.
Very odd, but that's the way it was for me at 15 and 16; one or two songs at a time. The last time I remember having a mantra-tune it was Petty's "Runnin' down a dream." during a rather difficult stretch. Wait, it was actually Larry Norman's "The Outlaw"
Seeing the acoustic; nowadays I'd have to say its the un-wired works that I find most amazing. i.e Mason William's
Gas
Do you like Celtic? Give this a go; On this the harp "runs the riff"
Sons of Somerled
I have a tune that's an experimental piece; the tune is iirc about 5-7 minutes of mostly simple runs and; it has a couple of chord-rifts that supply the "breaks".<L> Would you be interested in giving it a listen? I could share somewhere.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 01, 2013 05:39 PM |
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The Gas video isn't available in my country. 
Celtic isn't my cup of tea - as I'm GENERALLY (there are exceptions) not THAT fond of acoustic stuff and instruments. No idea, why that is so.
With "experimental" you mean your own stuff? Sure, let's hear it. Maybe as an mp3? I could send you my E-mail-addy ...
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 02, 2013 07:43 AM |
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My favorites
I also listen to Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart, Chopin, Bach and Strauss from time to time.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 02, 2013 09:02 AM |
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Edited by artu at 09:04, 02 Jul 2013.
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Celtic isn't my cup of tea either, but I agree acoustic stuff is the most outstanding as time goes by. (Come to think of it, classical and jazz are acoustic too). I especially like acoustic stuff when it's played with a bluesy (yes, again) style, you like Southern Rock, there's this Lynyrd Skynyrd album from the nineties where they play their favorites with an acoustic set, (also a great cover of Heartbreak Hotel as opening) and the result is their best album ever. The album's called Endangered Species, check it out. Also, when it comes to acoustic, if we put aside the Blues (which doesn't necessarily need to be sad btw, markur), I also like singer-songwriter stuff and folk. I think in English, the three aces of song-writing are Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits. I consider them poets. Waits is also incredible at improvising words, listen to this satire on consumerist society:
Step Right Upwhile reading the lyrics.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 09:42 AM |
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Leonhard Cohen? *shudder*
Neil Young is one guy I have a healthy respect of. Still, when he plugs in and has Crazy Horse at his side, his anger comes out with a lot more fervor. Same thing with Bob Dylan - no happenstance that Hendrix covered so many of his songs and Dylan went electric himself.
Compare one and the same song by Neil Young:
Rockin in the Free World (acoustic)
with
Rockin in the Free World (electric)
More like two different songs actually.
The acoustic version is more like - the simple song. Since it's just the bare song - melody with one accompanying instrument - it's a lot more "naked" which - in a sense - is more "honest" since there are no "effects" and arrangements or the power of "Watts" to blow the song up to something it possibly isn't.
However,
This Motörhead song COULD be played acoustic
but is so much better with all the power of electric energy behind it.
Meaning, there is nothing wrong with a voice and a guitar or a voice and a piano, but for me this evokes probably too much campfire romantics.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 02, 2013 09:53 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:15, 02 Jul 2013.
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Well, in case of Dylan, I also think his Opus Magnum is the trilogy that he did when he first went electric (Bringing It All Home/Highway 61 Revisited/Blonde on Blonde). But that's not Motorhead electric, no distortions and so on... Don't get me wrong, I got nothing against distortions and wah-wah pedals but over the years I found myself less and less drawn to that stuff.
For Cohen, I advise to check his early stuff from late sixties to mid seventies, during the eighties he's horrible (the general sound of the eighties does that to a lot of musicians). Especially, give a chance to what I consider his best two albums, Songs of Love and Hate and New Skin For The Old Ceremony. They have absolutely nothing to do with campfire romanticism, I can guarantee you that. Most songs has a darkness and melancholy to them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 10:20 AM |
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That's exactly what turned me off, then. I didn't want to hear sad and melancholic stuff in my youth.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 02, 2013 12:22 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 12:24, 02 Jul 2013.
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@JJ
Quote:
The Gas video isn't available in my country.
Well, since you don't like acoustic "Classical Gas", you've probably heard before anyway.
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Celtic isn't my cup of tea - as I'm GENERALLY (there are exceptions) not THAT fond of acoustic stuff and instruments. No idea, why that is so.
Oh man, and here I thought better of you. Sons of Somerled makes me want to..hmm...pillage and plunder.
Then you'd probably not care for blue-grass either. Paul ? of the Foggy Mountain boys; does for the fiddle, what Hendrix did for the guitar.
Quote:
With "experimental" you mean your own stuff? Sure, let's hear it. Maybe as an mp3? I could send you my E-mail-addy ...
OK, PM me the E.
@ Drakon-Deus
All good stuff in one way or another. If you have access to a player that can emulate acoustic-locations; play the Eagles Seven Bridges Road on "small-church" or "small wooden building", etc. and...close your eyes.
@ Artu
"It aint Blues man, iffin you aint feelin' up aginst-it...man" ... from Blind-Dog Markkur "on the road to Miss Sippi.
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I think in English, the three aces of song-writing are...
It's Dylan, Neil Young and Tom Petty for me. <imo> They are the "real deal" w/o the perfect-voice or model-looks to create some image; they made it soley on the poetry and expression of their human experience. I detest the new stars and the formula-studio-driven-drivel that's made today.
____________
"Do your own research"
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