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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 29, 2013 08:26 PM |
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But that has nothing to do with it. Somebody from Amsterdam can play New Orleans Jazz, it's not called New Orleans Jazz because everyone who plays it are from New Orleans. A specific style originates in an area and gets its name from it, it is welcomed to spread around.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 29, 2013 08:45 PM |
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I agree.
In the end, the label doesn't matter, it's the quality that counts.
Led Zep will crush most metal band not because their Heavy Blues Rock is the better music style but because they composed better songs and interpreted them with virtuosity and conviction.
"Heavy Metal" is more like an arrangement. There are interesting tribute albums out there that make an exquisite point of that. Butchering the Beatles is pretty cool, for example, showing that - a good song is a good song.
But the other way is possible as well. If you never listened to The Cure's version of Jimi HendriX' Purple Haze it's worth the while because it transforms it into something completely different while keeping a lot of the musical essence of the song. You might even say that the Cure's version is a better match when it comes to listening of what the text is all about. In any case, in my opinion, The Cure's Porple Haze has to be considered as one of the best cover versions.
I don't know about the March, though.
Children of the Grave by Black Sabbath - who are considered the enventors of Heavy Metal by a lot of people - may have been the start of serious headbanging AND sound like a March, but it certainly is everything except boring.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 29, 2013 11:22 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 23:24, 29 Aug 2013.
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JollyJoker said:
In any case, in my opinion, The Cure's Purple Haze has to be considered as one of the best cover versions.
I like the Cure and Purple Haze, so I'll have to give that one a listen. I don't like covers in general but I agree a few can outshine the original songs. I sort of see a great-cover, as taking a very good idea and hitting on the perfect-tweak. For me, Frigid Pink's cover of the Animals' House of the Rising Sun is one where the original expression was perfected.
Cheers all!
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JollyJoker
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posted August 29, 2013 11:50 PM |
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Hey, I like the Frijid Pink version of HotRS - they are Dutch by the way.
Cover songs show what's possible. Aerosmith and Come Together? Only thing missing is John Lennon singing (co - Tyler is good).
Anyway. I consider I Wanna be Your Dog by the Stooges one of the greatest rock songs of all time - still, when you heard them all, Joan Jett Live at Telluride blows the Stooges away with their version, for a lot of reasons, but it just shows that cover versions may be just great.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 29, 2013 11:59 PM |
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By the way: Best Hard Rock song ever. Strong contender:
Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Öyster Cult. One for eternity.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2013 02:46 PM |
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Anyone listening to Motorpsycho round here?
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William
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted September 09, 2013 01:59 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
By the way: Best Hard Rock song ever. Strong contender:
Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Öyster Cult. One for eternity.
As good of a song as it is, I wouldn't say it's one of the best hard rock songs ever.
If anybody wants to listen to one of the best tunes I have ever heard then listen to Ramble Tamble by Creedence Clearwater Revival. Just amazing. Every single second of it is worth it.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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JollyJoker
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posted September 12, 2013 07:19 PM |
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Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Anyway, a bit more fuel to the discussion.
Been listening to some covers of Hendrix's Foxy Lady, lately, a song that the maestro himself played probably on every gig he did, and also one that would seem deceptively easy.
And while it would seem that basically everyone doing the song can play a somewhat acceptable or even quite good and interesting guitar - I didn't hear ANY SINGLE ONE getting it right, mainly because of the vocals and the general presentation.
If you just listen to the original Hendrix album version or maybe even a live performance of the song, you'll see and hear that the cover versions do not transport the raw sex of the Hendrix version, not nearly. Which is what the song is all about, actually, when you get to the heart of it.
Meaning, that the cover versions are falling awfully short, because they do not really transport the actual meaning of the song - they just copy it without really grasping the essence.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 12, 2013 08:03 PM |
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Hendrix by any standard is a terrible vocalist but somehow he's not. I can't remember any Foxy Lady covers right now but most of the time, I like covers that treat him as a personality and I really dislike covers that treat him as "circus freak of the guitar." He's (not just but a) sensitive blues player, for example, and I hate all those vlvlvlvlvllvlvvjuvvv Red House covers.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 12, 2013 08:07 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Meaning, that the cover versions are falling awfully short, because they do not really transport the actual meaning of the song - they just copy it without really grasping the essence.
I think this well describes two things, the intention of the original artist and our 1st time hearing the song and how we "adopt the tune for ourselves" i.e. Petty's "Runnin' down a Dream" hit the airwaves right at the moment in my life, that I was forced to rebuild. So, whatever he actually meant...I don't know, but "running down a dream" became my personal anthem for my new (& coping) mindset. Years later, it transports me back to that time, whether I will it or no.
I see this as the same perception issue with my Poetry, what's best about my Poems is not actually (or in reality)what I intended but what use they will have to another person that takes the ride.
To another aspect; when it comes to music-crafting one of my favorite methods that best captures my taste is what I call "The Build-up." I'm no general fan of the "Hair-bands" but 1 song from one of them is one of my favorite tunes of any-age; "Turn up the Radio" by Autograph does "my perfect Build". The song layers like a cake and then hits you in the face at one moment when all the guys get going...full-tilt boogie<L>
____________
"Do your own research"
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markkur
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posted October 07, 2013 03:56 PM |
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@ JJ and any other Jimi fans
In Orlando FL this year, McCartney does a short cover and gives a tribute to Hendrix...before Paperback Writer.
Paul
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 07, 2013 04:47 PM |
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...and throws in another Clapton/Hendrix story. Guess Hendrix was indeed a little obsessed about Clapton, he was called the greatest player ever etc etc before Hendrix got famous. I even watched a TV biopic in which he accepts to come to London (or play in some famous night club in London, I can't recall) only if Clapton agrees to play with him, so these guys go to the backstage of a Cream gig, and Clapton's sitting there all bored and annoyed hearing about this deal, and he goes:
- Can this guy really play, mate?
- Yeah, Eric. He can play!
Pity nobody recorded it, I always wonder what a Clapton vs Hendrix duel would sound like.
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markkur
Honorable
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Once upon a time
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posted October 07, 2013 11:28 PM |
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True Artu...man I like that opening.
I remember a story about the Hendrix-effect in the U.K. iirc it was at a hot-spot called the Cavern where the soon-to-be-greats would often meet. i.e. The place was an early Beatles venue but also a start for many other groups included the Stones and others.
I recall a conversation about the scene that Paul was talking about; not only was Clapton there but many of Britain's finest were gathering together and (my words) "comparing notes and freely sharing ideas." Note: This was ahead of the fame & contracts that would change them all.
Anyway, Jeff Beck, I think Keith Richards and several others were also there but I especially remember whoever I heard this story from saying; that Pete Townsend of the Who, made the following comment; that many of those guitarists that saw Hendrix perform, shared that "Hendrix intimidated the heck out of them all" and that afterwards, several felt like they couldn't play"
<imo> Although Clapton is today...a deserving legend, back then, he could not be compared to Hendrix. I don't think it's all a talent issue, I think it was something more, in that Clapton deep not have as rich of background in Blues-style as Hendrix had and if we then toss in Jimi's ground-breaking electronic wizardry? That's when comparisons are lost for me and I think Paul's story illustrated what they all knew that night.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 08, 2013 09:43 AM |
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The difference between them is simply, that Eric Clapton is and was a Blues guitar player who wrote and co-wrote a couple of good songs as well and also sang some, while Jimi Hendrix was a musical galaxy of his own.
It's not enough to expand the bandwidth of an instrument - you need to have the songs for it that go along with it.
With Jimi, I tend to think that he was first and foremost a songwriter who had the sounds and songs in his head and THEN explored the possibilities of how to make that sound come real.
If you take his interpretation of the Star Spangled Banner - I mean, you MUST have hear those sounds in your head before you try to produce them on an instrument. Or with studio technology.
The guy has written more songs in 4 years of his life than others in 20.
Add the stage presence and his unique voice, and he plays in a different league altogether.
With Jimi, Blues takes on a completely different outlook - in my mind Led Zeppelin/Jimmy Page have a lot more in common with Hendrix than Clapton has, because Led Zep has the same or a comparable attitude towards the Blues - and towards showmanship. Jimmy Page fiddling his guitar with a violin bow is not so much different than Jimi plucking his Strat with his teeth, except that Jimi is more directly intimate while Jimmy uses a gadget, which probably fits quite well considering Page's reported sexual preferences. But both Hendrix and Led Zep are so obviously physical and sexually outspoken in a way Clapton would never have been - compared to them Clapton is shy and self-conscious.
I really like the Beatles, and I like Paul McCartney - he's a survivor and a real artist who LIKES being a musician, playing, writing songs - but he's also a very smooth type of artist, who can write a nice melody, but who couldn't even sing Foxy Lady right, which is probably why he doesn't even try. Hendrix has been a beast in a way Macca could never be, but that's okay. After all, he wrote his share of unforgettables as well.
Lastly - a guitar duel between Clapton and Hendrix at that time would have been pretty pointless, Jimi being innovative and experimental while Eric would specialize on a specific way of playing at the time. From the 3 famous Yardbird guitar players I would rate Clapton the most uninspired, Beck and Page trying to break new ground (Beck still at it, mind you). I also think that both are better guitar players than Eric, Beck having his deficits in song-writing, leaving Jimmy Page as the guy a duel with Hendric would have been most interesting at the time, because he's on par with Jimi in his own way. Both exude the same kind of of confidence working their instruments, both have written a lot of exquisite songs and both are pretty awesome players. Additionally Page could have played Bass.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 08, 2013 11:28 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:30, 08 Oct 2013.
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Well, come to think of it, when Hendrix came around, Clapton's Yardbirds and John Mayall's Bluesbreakers years were behind and Cream (originated in 1966 if I'm not mistaken) itself is quite psychedelic, too. Just think of White Room, could have easily been a Hendrix song. And we don't know the approach Hendrix would have taken if he had seen 1975. Psychedelia and that kind of sound experiment was very "in" during the late sixties and almost everybody did it. Yet, almost everybody also dropped it quite quickly, (or they took it to a more composing level like Pink Floyd and Frank Zappa). Experiment for experiment's sake gets old quite fast in art styles, this fashion was no exception. Personally, I prefer Clapton because his style is much more catchy in a melodic way and self-aware. Hendrix, especially if he is live, sometimes puts in too much circus moves (even if you are just listening, not watching), which does not impress me at all. I even read an interview by Clapton in which he tells Hendrix once came to him and said "snow man, people come to see me play with my teeth, what a waste of time." Of course, Clapton fairly objected, "but he was the one doing that, if you don't want it, why do it?" I can't agree more.
However, I must also take into account that one of the reasons I prefer Clapton is over the years, he had done an enormous amount of discography that I enjoy and he matured in a very good, stylish way. If we were comparing them with Clapton's discography limited to 1970 (when Hendrix died), then MAYBE I would have picked Hendrix despite the circus moves. He was very creative indeed and that amount of music in just 4 years is astonishing.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 08, 2013 02:18 PM |
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I think, your assessment is massively off-kilter.
Fresh Cream was released in December 1966, and Eric Clapton didn't even co-write one of the songs on that album.
On Disraeli Gears, released 11 months later, Clapton is co-writer on 3 songs, admittedly 3 good ones.
Lastly, the double album Wheels of Fire, released July 1968, that features White Room, again has NO Eric Clapton mention in the credits: again, he didn't even CO-write ONE song on that album, and White Room is NOT a song Eric Clapton has anything to do with, except that he played a fine guitar on it.
Lastly, on the Goodbye Album, he shares credits with George Harrison for Badge.
Creative force with Cream was Jack Bruce.
Which means, that in his time with Cream Eric Clapton Co-Wrote FOUR songs - that's it.
August 1969 saw the release of Blind Faith, with Clapton writing ONE song, Presence of the Lord.
With Delaney and Bonnie he also Co-wrote one song.
Lastly, of the 14 songs comprising the "Layla" album, Clapton wrote ONE alone and Co-wrote another 7, most of them with Bobby Whitlock, but the standout-track Layla was co-written with Jim Gordon (even though the famous lick is obviously by him).
So there is a massive difference here between Clapton and Hendrix, that makes them play in different leagues, whether you like that or not.
Then, about the showmanship. Hendrix was an American, not English, and had toured extensively with people like Little Richard and the Isley Brothers, and you should know how important this kind of showmanship was in the US in comparison. Think about Elvis the Pelvis, think about Jerry Lee Lewis playing the piano with his feet - and for black musicians this kind of showmanship was even more normal, and while playing the circuit he would see and acquire this kind of stuff, to present himself this way at Monterey Pop.
Jimi Hendrix simply has a completely different background, and when he started his solo career he did it as an entertainer, the way he had learned it, and proud of it. Later those "gimmicks" would return to haunt him, and if you look at what the Band of Gypsies was all about, when he broke up the Experience - NONE of that was present anymore.
Bottom line is, while Hendrix was alive, there was no competition, Hendrix playing in a different league, Clapton being "only" the guitar player of the super group cream whose creative force was Jack Bruce.
As a PS:
I had the pleasure to see Jack Bruce and Robin Trower a couple of years ago (they made 3 albums together). They played White Room as an encore, Robin Trower meticulously following the original; it was quite obvious that he was deliberately trying NOT to outplay Clapton, try anything fancy or demonstrate anything - that he had done before.
In my opinion, Robin Trower beats Eric Clapton also by a mile: he has developed a lot more of a distinctive playing style and has written a bunch of songs in his life - still doing it, releasing new albums. Trower is probably one of the first guitar players that actively heard the 60s greats and was influenced by them.
If you don't know him, after je split with Procol Harum , staring his solo career, it's worth it to follow his solo albums. On the first one, Twice removed from Yesterday, of the 9 songs on it, one was a cover, the other 8 were co-written by him and, mostly, Bass Player James Dewar, who would also sing.
The second album, Bridge of Sighs, features 8 songs, 6 of those composed by Trower and two co-written with Dewar, clear tendency here.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 08, 2013 02:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:39, 08 Oct 2013.
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Dude, I know Clapton wasn't the composer on majority of the songs and especially White Room since I love that song. But in progressive groups like Cream, the solos and the improvisation (especially if it's in the studio version of the track) becomes kind of like part of the song itself, almost part of the composition. Clapton was not like a "hired pro" in Cream, his playing style was a fundamental part of the band's identity and I'm sure Jack Bruce composed many of those songs in accordance to the fact that Clapton was going to be playing on them. The reason I picked White Room as an example is, it's not classical blues or the ballad type but rather close to the style of Hendrix in terms of what you can display with the guitar using the wah-wah pedals and experimenting with the distortion etc etc...
As I said, what I like most about Clapton's style is, he's very melodic, he turns even little solos into things you can whistle while walking on the street. And in that speciality, he's better than Hendrix. Most of the time, I prefer that speciality to many traits Hendrix is better at.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 08, 2013 03:09 PM |
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White Room is from 1968 - a time when Hendrix had released two regular studio albums and the Smash Hits Single collection.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 08, 2013 06:14 PM |
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There's nothing in my posts indicating Hendrix copied Cream, I'm just saying what you attribute to him also had a lot to do with zeitgeist. The times were experimental and wild.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 08, 2013 06:41 PM |
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That sounds like any number of apes hammering away would eventually type Shajespeare's works.
Of course the times were wild - that doesn't change anything about the quality of the material he wrote, which you continue to conveniently ignore. Hendrix is first and foremost HIS SONGS, not his guitar play which would have been long forgotten, if his songs would have had the quality of, say, Jeff Healey.
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