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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 27, 2013 11:53 PM |
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Now, remember when I said
Quote:
There is a kind of dirty, simple feeling to real Rock you can only learn to detect by listening to old Blues for a long time. Blues is the mother load, it's the juice of all Rock, Soul, Funk, etc. And when you listen to 30's 40's 50's Blues and capture the feeling of it, it gives you BS detector in Rock nothing else can. There is a difference between Poison and Guns n Roses, only Blues listeners can hear, one got it the other don't.
This is kind of what I'm talking about:
System of a Down-Revenga
This is why I don't like Heavy Metal. Rhythm and Blues glides, while Heavy Metal just ruku ruku ruku ruku marches.
P.S. No offense Storm-Giant, just trying to elaborate why my personal taste generally excludes Heavy Metal.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 12:00 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 00:05, 28 Aug 2013.
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system of a down sucks, and is for hipsters, artu. they are as "heavy metal" as linkin park(another band that blows).
just because a band is labeled something, doesn't mean that they are. lots of fake-ass wannabe's like to be associated with a genre they are anything but. it's just a marketing ploy.
p.s. i'm not calling anybody here a hipster, so don't get offended. there are always exceptions to a rule. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 28, 2013 12:12 AM |
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I don't know what you mean by hipsters, to me hipsters are Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg etc etc.. And I really can't imagine them listening to System of A Down, I like hipsters and their literature. Anyway, this band is just an example here, why I don't like Heavy Metal in general is, it's just blunt. I'm sure there are exceptions, I did hear some exceptions like Megadeth's Countdown to Extinction, I bought it. I know I'm making a generalization but that is to point what I think is wrong with Heavy Metal.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 28, 2013 12:13 AM |
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My preferred band:
Joke aside, Russian ballets at piano alone, is simply gorgeous. A whole orchestra on 88 keys, minus the hairless legs around.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 28, 2013 12:19 AM |
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Time to be able to brag ha Monsieur Rogacev
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 28, 2013 01:35 AM |
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System of a Down are no heavy metal. It's true that the arguments what is what in the rock world are endless and often meaningless, however there are certain borders that are more or less clear. While "heavy metal" is pretty generic and usually refers to pretty much all metal sub-genres, those who have went a bit deeper into this kind of music than the regular "I-may-listen-to-some-rock-track-from-time-to-time" people usually associate heavy metal with Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead and other bands which start to emerge in the late 70s and make a breakthrough in the 80s and the early 90s. There are discussions if earlier hard rock bands like Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Nazareth essentially "invent" heavy metal or just pave the path but these things depend on the actual listener. In any case, if you consider "heavy metal" to be everything related to electric guitars past the hard rock years, then there's certainly a lot of difference at least between the bands. Take this, this, this and this, just to name a few.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 28, 2013 01:51 AM |
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I'd say Judas Priest and Black Sabbath are among the "inventors" of Heavy Metal but Deep Purple is not. You see, it's not about how distorted your guitar is, it's about how you treat the structure. Motorhead is a gray area. Heavy Metal, in my dictionary, is when Rock loses the touch with the Roll. Listen to Lazy by Deep Purple, they roll, they glide.
Btw, what do you define SOAD as? Since I don't like Heavy Metal, I am not well informed about the sub-genres of it.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 28, 2013 12:34 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 12:35, 28 Aug 2013.
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artu said:
Heavy Metal, in my dictionary, is when Rock loses the touch with the Roll. Listen to Lazy by Deep Purple, they roll, they glide.
Spot on "about that tune" but my boyz did more tunes than bluesy stuff; give Highway-Star (Live) a crank-up the next time you go for a drive. 
<imo> The first groups that paved the way for the later Heavy Metal Bands were some in-your-face-stuff like "Hot Smoke and Sassafrass" by Bubble Puppy and "I Had Too Much to Dream Last Night" by The Electric Prunes. These were truly different tunes when they played on the radio and both songs made the bands one-hit-wonders.
My point is that it was a "first step" for Loud-Rock  to go mainstream. Until these type of songs; there was still a lot of vocal focus and catchy jingle to songs but these bands started playing something really different. Quickly, people started wanting a music-focus over the Beatle-like harmonies of the mid-60s. As Dylan said the times were a changin' and so was the idea of Rock. (By 1970, Innocence had been hung, drawn and quartered)and then; Rolling became a lot more...Driving.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 28, 2013 12:59 PM |
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SOAD are some mixture between hardcore, alternative rock/metal and trash metal. I'd hardly give them precise labels because I don't exactly listen to them (only selected songs and only from time to time) but their style is much more... say, chaotic and to an extent even psychedelic compared to the classical heavy metal of the 80s.
As for who "invented" the heavy metal - the opinions are about as many as the listeners. You can hear arguments that Deep Purple start to shift to something resembling heavy metal in the mid 70s ("Burn" and "Stormbringer" have some tracks which are a bit unusual for the time) or people saying that Black Sabbath never crossed the hard rock/heavy metal border, or that Judas Priest are playing typical hard rock in their first albums, etc. and each of these will probably hold some truth and a lot of subjectivity. I prefer to stay away from the "creators" topic because experience shows that it can easily turn into a not-so-friendly pogo.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 02:42 PM |
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I think, it's fairly easy to define a division line.
I think, everyone will agree that the album Load by Metallica was NOT Heavy Metal anymore, but somewhat Hard Rock, while the predecessor "Metallica" (the Black album) still was Metal (and is the most successful metal album ever).
Deep Purple was Hard Rock.
Motörhead play "Rock 'n' Roll".
Vanilla Fudge brought in the Slowness long before Black Sabbath, but Black Sabbath combined the Slomo Rock of Vanilla Fudge with Hard Rock, inventing "HEAVY riffing" (it's heavy because it's slow): The chord is given more time to reverb.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 28, 2013 05:45 PM |
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@markkur
I know dude, I have like 3-4 Deep Purple cd's. I still wouldn't call them Heavy Metal on any stage of their evolution. like JJ says, they go hard-rock.
@JJ
Motörhead can be indeed called rock n' roll but I call them and especially AC/DC "heavy rock n' roll" I like that style especially while in a car on the highway.
Metallica's black album was indeed good, I bought that as a cd also, the funny part is around the years it was released, my hard-core Metallica fan friends were considering the album as a sell-out.
@Zenofex
Well, I guess I should have said Metal instead of Heavy Metal, you're right, when the Heavy is added, it refers to the classical metal of the eighties.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 06:35 PM |
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I just quoted Motörhead, because you know what theý say in each concert: "We are Motörhead and we play Rock 'n' Roll."
The strict division makes no sense anyway. Led Zeppelin has a lot of tracks that you might call "Heavy Blues", while there are lots of different "Metal" styles, like Thrash or Speed or Death - and Motörhead are the Godfathers of Speed Metal, even though they also play Rock 'n' Roll.
Martin Popoff is the Pope of Metal reviews and has written a couple of books, most of them collections of reviews on Heavy Metal, the Top 500 Heavy Metal albums of all time (in this case NOT based on his ratings). There the #1 spot is covered by Metallica's Master of Puppets, while the #5 spot is covered by AC/DC's Back in Black, #9 is the Van Halen debut and #10 is Guns'n Roses' Appetite for Destruction - the last 3 you can happily debate about whether that's Heavy Metal or not.
Popoff's favorite album of all time is Physical Graffiti by Led Zep, followed by - Sabotage by Black Sabbath.
There is also .. Stoner Rock and the hybrids, like Cypress Hill - or the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
I agree that lots of the 80s Heavy Metal is somewhat ... dumb. Repetitive, clichéd, anthem style crap, chorus guitars high-pitched vocals... - but obviously that's somewhat true for every style; it's just that everyone likes one or more styles better than others, and consequently more of those will pass the "taste test".
Most music is based on steady non-complex rhythms, because it has a lot do with sex and emotion and those don't profit from arhythmic and complex stuff.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 28, 2013 08:40 PM |
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Edited by artu at 04:06, 29 Aug 2013.
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So you don't get emotional when you listen to Rachmaninoff?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2013 08:53 PM |
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Okay, I rephrase - music has got a lot to do with sex and associated emotions - that's the basic idea behind it, and that's why simple stuff is appealing.
That doesn't mean other stuff may not appealing, but it caters to other things then.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted August 28, 2013 10:08 PM |
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I am really sad and disappointing in nine inch nails for their new album is embarrassing to me. I never liked every single one of their songs, or every last part of any song, but this album is painful to my ears over 90% of the time.
I do not want to listen to it a second time. I may never be a loyal fan of anything ever again.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2013 02:19 PM |
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I have to agree with artu in parts. Take for example IRON MAIDEN: It's what for many really started things, especially their album The Number of the Beast, so that would be a typical "Heavy Metal" thing.
Now if you listen to the title track of that key album - # 2 slot in Popoffs list - for me not only there is nothing "Heavy" about it, it's also ridiculously bad, if you ask me (sorry, all you Maiden fans).
"Heavy" would be something like Led Zep - When the Levee Breaks .
I mean, let's face it, Led Zep would crush most so-called "Heavy Metal" bands unter the sheer massive weight of their sound.
I won't even start with the Stooges and THEIR early sound, but a lot of the later Heavy Metal bands sound for me like GLAM Metal.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 29, 2013 03:08 PM |
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I'd call When The Levee Breaks blues-rock, especially with the Chicago style blues harp in the back.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2013 04:03 PM |
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I would call it HEAVY Blues-Rock, which would ask the question what METAL actually means.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 29, 2013 04:22 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:13, 29 Aug 2013.
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As I said earlier, the distinction to me is that Metal MARCHES. The connection to Rhythm and Blues roots of Rock is almost totally lost. There are many rock sub-genres where it's also lost of course, like Rock bands basing their music on ballads, their countries' folk music, 70's glam, etc etc. But when I hear Metal, I hear a marching band. (Think of the song Master of Puppets, perfect example.)
Now, think of Grunge, Nirvana... Their music (unlike, say, Guns n' Roses) is pretty far away from the rhythm and blues roots too, most of the time. But they don't march, so you never think of them as Metal although there are many things familiar in the sound. As you say, it's usually impossible to draw strict lines, music isn't the Periodic Table. Still, when generalization for the sake of modelization suggests a distinctive factor, I would say that Metal marches.
Edit:
An interesting example, High Speed Dirt by Megadeth. This relatively does not march, but when they go blues in the solo, it ceases to march at all.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 29, 2013 07:20 PM |
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Just to be clear, I didn't engage in who started Heavy-Metal or Hard Rock, because there's not one-spot to start.  <imo> it was a WAVE, that as I said, began as a "ripple" and my example of the ripples were based on what "sold".
Funny, reading you guys, makes me remember the ol' "Southern Rock or Country-Rock" definition debates...depending on where you lived. Southern Rock never made sense to me; I mean there were some real hillbillies living not far from NYC, the Windy City and Beverly-Hills that is.
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This thread is pages long: 
