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Lawmaker
Hired Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 07:58 AM |
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TBH i am quite pleased with the units. Don't forget that the game takes place about a century before H5. The lineups are starting to resemble the lineup for H5(sans the spider and lamasu. And besides...if it works, why change it? The necro creatures did their jobs well(and certain situations made the namtaru extinct i guess)so why change them?
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 08:48 AM |
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Because for the fans it's just not good to do the same thing over and over again. Except when they are afraid of change and want to stick with the familiar. So go figure...
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 24, 2015 10:55 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 10:55, 24 Jan 2015.
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Protolisk said:
Where is that Skultula's pedipalps, Kiryu? 
in the artwork and probably to small or detailed for the hardware? they did add pedipalps in later versions though and there is one very important difference: skulltulas were never explicitly called spiders and that's were my beef comes from 
besides, it's the skull motif that makes them so much more fitting here.
Avirosb said:
Pictured: A mummy lich
the best mummy lich. it even comes with a death cloud!
in all seriousness though: get rid of all the spikes. this means every last one of them: spikes art to damn many. Even the somewhat cool reaper has them and it really brings it down for me 
also the scythe looks snowing hilariously stupid. make it thin and normal, please.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 11:08 AM |
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I just posted this on the blog; thought it was worth sharing.
Quote:
One thing I think people are overlooking is that the factions all seem to have at least three "large / four square" units, including the Champion slot. Haven's other two are Dire Wolf and Cavalier, Academy has the Rakshasa and Apprentice, Sylvan has the Sun Deer and Blade Dancer, and Dungeon has the Minotaur and Strider.
The two for Necropolis? Spider and Lamasu.
So unless you want your zombies/mummies to be REALLY squat, either stop complaining or think of a "bigger" alternative replacement.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 24, 2015 11:23 AM |
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Kimarous said:
I just posted this on the blog; thought it was worth sharing.
One thing I think people are overlooking is that the factions all seem to have at least three "large / four square" units, including the Champion slot. Haven's other two are Dire Wolf and Cavalier, Academy has the Rakshasa and Apprentice, Sylvan has the Sun Deer and Blade Dancer, and Dungeon has the Minotaur and Strider.
The two for Necropolis? Spider and Lamasu.
So unless you want your zombies/mummies to be REALLY squat, either stop complaining or think of a "bigger" alternative replacement.
What's stopping them from having only 2 large creatures, I.E. Lamasu + Champion?
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 24, 2015 12:58 PM |
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Quote:
Because for the fans it's just not good to do the same thing over and over again. Except when they are afraid of change and want to stick with the familiar. So go figure...
Danny, stop using the strawman, the fans got nothing against old creatures returning. They got something against THE SAME OLD MODELS returning, it's the first time in the heroes franchise when this happens. And also they got something against poor design choices.
Quote:
One thing I think people are overlooking is that the factions all seem to have at least three "large / four square" units, including the Champion slot. Haven's other two are Dire Wolf and Cavalier, Academy has the Rakshasa and Apprentice, Sylvan has the Sun Deer and Blade Dancer, and Dungeon has the Minotaur and Strider.
Necro has 3 even without the spider: Grim Reaper, Bone Dragon and Lamassu.
Quote:
I do get that. They also warned us. And a lot of people (not all, mind you. In fact, was it not you who said they'd be copies?) thought "oh, well, they'll look different". Then when they did indeed take from H6, people got super angry. They told us to our faces, and then "we" get mad after we learned that they told the truth.
I didn't agreed from the start with that, yes I could have started talking crap about necropolis, but some people like Danny and Wellplay would say "STFU they aren't even revealed". So I just waited and guess what: I was right. Now they say "upgrades aren't done so STFU" or "idiots descending into madness", then say that I'm raging.
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Yeah, they have a lot of spikes. Tormentor school of armor design. But, I don't think that really matters to a Skeleton. It's mindless. If anything, it's scare tactics from the leaders. As a reason for it's armor choices, perhaps it's because a skeleton doesn't need ribs anymore to really keep itself together? Humans armor up their torsos because if a blade gets through, it could pierce a heart or lung, or they could get disemboweled. A Skeleton doesn't have to fear that. What a Skeleton might need to protect is it's joints though, since that's where all the bones connect. And you have very little bone connections up in your shoulders, as the clavicle your humerus connects to connects more to the sternum if anything. Thus, the pauldrons that actually do protect those. But, yes, it's overly designed.
Don't get me wrong, I got nothing against armored skeletons, I have something against that awful armor on the skeletons. I liked the h3, h4 and h5 armored skeletons, they were cool, even the h6 un-upgraded were ok, they still suffered from chronic greenness, but their design wasn't bad. About the breastplate, that's the hardest to get off, it's usually made from 2 parts and combined into a single one with rivets, plus the leather straps, while the helm is just out over his skull (it doesn't look like it's strapped somehow), and the pauldrons got only leather straps. But I can't stand the design, I could live with a skeleton who hasn't a breastplate, the design it's horrible, they did a good job with the un-upgraded skeleton, why can't they do the same with the upgrade? Also if it's called hoplite why doesn't he have a spear or at least a Xiphos, Makhaira or Kopis ( this one is even curved a little).
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Maybe we were playing different games, but Necromancy used to only summon Skeles, not Zombies, which made them the real "back bones" of the army. Although they literally were bags of meat walking around, they didn't do much but get hit, and that's it. Zombies really were just skeletons with 3 times the health, and usually even slower, which made them one of the utmost boring units ever.
Yeah, I know, what I was trying to say was that they look like the first thing a necromancer would raise. I like skeletons more than zombies, but zombies look like they just have been raised from fresh corpses, while skeletons look like they were dead for some time and then raised. I could live without zombies tough
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Can't see through that mortuary mask, it doesn't have eye holes. But, yes, the pictures I showed were "normal" Egyptian mummies, but even "natural" mummification produces the effects of embalming. This comfortable looking fellow was the result of a Celt getting offed in a pit bog some centuries ago. The skin turns leathery, and the eyes sink in, and the lips pulled back. That's pretty much exactly the description of our ugly friend the Lich there. Yes, Uncle Fester looks goofy, but that's because it's a large dude with make up on. Even though I don't see the grin you seem to, people also seem to think skulls are naturally grinning anyway. Plus, a lot of the glowing is coming from that he has no background to be set against, so you see the whole "burst", if you will, of color in one go. But, yes, like the skeleton, he has spikes.
It's not like they can't cut holes through it I like mummies and Egypt's ancient history, but the h6 and h7 so far had a poor execution of Egyptian culture: the colors, the architecture was more Sumerian and meso-american rather than Egyptian (yeah, I know the Saqqara pyramid ), the units weren't that inspired from Egyptian mythology (an Ammit would have been cool), their design was just ugly: spikes everywhere, the vampire looked rather like a fantasy medieval spin-off than Egyptian, the lich looked like a sado-masochist with all these chains and whips in h6, while the upg ghouls looked like well... something Why didn't they just put liches on the ground, give them an Egyptian crown, an ankh staff, maybe a mortuary mask and just name the Mummies? Even if they only renamed them to mummies would be better, also they could recolor their skin to a brownish hue so they look like the Tollund Man. Also, let's not forget that the Egyptian undead theme is also in Warhammer, the similarities with warhammer made them to change a lot of cannon lore and units from h5.
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Also, wow, yes, a guy dressed for war has *gasp* many similarities in dark armor as another guy prepared for war! The revelation! And it's not like Arthas himself isn't ridding along with all those other people with Sauron like armor, which wa made to be protective (even though Sauron is pretty powerful without it) and to look imposing. I wonder why our vampires here would wear it? Of course, you say that he looks young and has pale skin, owns a cape, with a non-rotten face, which to me, reminds me of a different vampire from a different game series. and his son. And you can't say these vampires are twilightized, because the game those two look like that in came out in 1997, two years before our beloved H3. So what?
Having similar armor is one, having similar look is one. But doing both in the same time it's well... plagiarism  I mean it's exactly the same concept of "Death Knight" (death as in vampire, immortal, forever young), even the weapon it's the same, a big sword. It's not just a dead dude going to war in a dark armor, it's more like an undead vampiric forever young, non-rotten, long-haired, pale-skinned, glowing eyed guy going to war in a dark armor with a big sword, which also has a cape. Also Dracula doesn't use weapons, he uses his supernatural strength and powers like life drain and such, he also had a super-resistant skin and so on. Also, no, I neither like those vampires you posted, I wouldn't like them in Heroes neither. Also it makes me question if this "undead are good guys" is copied from Warcraft 3, you know, the forsaken.
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They probably aren't straight up manticores because then that would open up the can of worms like having "Undead unicorns" and "undead minotaurs" as fully fledged necropolis units, which although the Dragon seems to get a pass, that's probably because the Dragon is a big deal, as opposed to having a "undead pixie" or a "undead wolf" as full units. They also probably chose a Lamasu as it's a *gasp* mythological creature! And we all know how much us prom-night prepared fan-girls love ourselves some mythological creatures. And, it's true, Lamassu usually does have a bull body... or a lion one. It has been known to have either. As for the skull, if it had no flesh on that skull it'd look silly atop a fleshy body. Or, perhaps there is no fleshy body, which in that case would look like a tinier dragon. So the point would be, what?
You know... lion-body lamassu is exactly a greek sphinx, why not call it just sphinx If they really wanted a lamassu they should have get a bull-bodied one. Also why did they scrap his headgear? And why the bat wings? You know who else has a lion-bodied lamassu with bat wings? The same company who caused the change of many units, including the skeletal lich, that's right Games Workshop - Warhammer.
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Okay, so you think they fit with Dungeon, and I can see why, with cave spiders and such. Poor spider though, getting dissed on not because of its own merits, but because of its relations. Still, the Namtaru were beings of death (much like the Wraiths of H5, and possibly even these new Grim reapers), not so much "dead and brought back" but "never alive". But I can understand if that doesn't work well for you. I do wish for a rotten spider, but, if it wasn't alive to begin with, why would it rot?
I'd personally prefer normal spiders over Namatru. But in order to make the spider fit into Necropolis and to put in zombies they could combine them, like making a mind-controlling spider atop of a corpse having his fangs and legs into the corpse's spine and brain, that'd be awesome
Quote:
So you DO inspect your troops under a microscope! I was right!
Seriously though, you just said the game zooms out. So what's the point if you barely see it? I assume the close ups are just for those who zoom in anyway, as it looks more "cinematic" that way.
What I liked at h1, h2, h3, even h4 was that you didn't have to zoom in in order to see the details, the scale was fit in such a away you could see units' details and keep an eye on the whole battlefield in the same time. It's just personal preference, I usually like to admire creatures details, plus it's a question of marketing to have some good eye-candies.
Quote:
The lich looks as undead as the Ghoul did, as they both had pretty sunken features, with pale and tightened skin, which is certainly not natural. And don't even bother saying that the vampires have "healthy" looking skin, that stuff is green and grey, it'd be a fluke if a living person was that color. And Anastasia looks like a school girl because she pretty much was one. This embalming venom stuff seems to really work well unless you have an injury if Kaspar means anything. But, you know, since Kaspar seems to be failing, as well as the general loss of venom due to less Namtaru, I don't think they'll be so "pure" looking for long. Also, you are implying that a powerful undead sorcerer isn't a crazy "b@astard"?
A powerful undead sorcerer would be a "mad scientist" not a "crazy b@astard", vocabulary matters  . It looks rather alien than dead, that's it, death is associated with rot, bones and gore and always playing the "embalming-venom" card is boring and offers no diversity, also if it has embalming proprieties it's not a venom, as venom destroys tissues not conserve them (I may be wrong, but I never heard of a venom that has preservative proprieties). Also Lamassu isn't made using Namatru venom, so why isn't his face rotten? I would be pleased to see a hair-less skull-faced lamassu with an Egyptian crown or headgear.
Quote:
Even in Twilight, the "vampires" (I swear they are really pixies in that one) have pretty healthy looking skin. But, wait... that's exactly what vampires are supposed to be, since Dracula, written by Bram Stoker, took the stage. They are supposed to look healthy, and draw you in! Furthermore, even in that book, Dracula seems to start taking on a more youthful appearance as the book goes on... sound like any vampires we know of? So guess what? "Twilightisation" has been occurring since 1897. Please, at least stop saying Twilight is the source of inspiration there, it clearly isn't them. Especially since our vampire doesn't have the healthy skin tone of either those "pixies" or Dracula himself.
That's why I prefer mythological vampires, where they are either spirits or zombie-looking creatures, which can also morph into animals or mist. I think they are also more interesting than these teleporting teenagers, plus Dracula could morph into a bat. Also the h4 vampire wasn't bad, even if he wasn't rotten, he was exactly like Bram Stoker's Dracula, but he drained life force and morphed into a bat, he also was the only non-rotten creature in the faction, so if the rest are rotten and undead, I can accept vampires to be non-rotten.
BTW: I'm glad I found someone who uses actual arguments than just call these who don't agree "mad idiots" 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 24, 2015 01:33 PM |
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Quote:
What I liked at h1, h2, h3, even h4 was that you didn't have to zoom in in order to see the details, the scale was fit in such a away you could see units' details and keep an eye on the whole battlefield in the same time. It's just personal preference, I usually like to admire creatures details, plus it's a question of marketing to have some good eye-candies.
A big reason for the extremely detailed models is so that they can be used for stupid cutscenes.
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 01:58 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
Because for the fans it's just not good to do the same thing over and over again. Except when they are afraid of change and want to stick with the familiar. So go figure...
Danny, stop using the strawman, the fans got nothing against old creatures returning. They got something against THE SAME OLD MODELS returning, it's the first time in the heroes franchise when this happens. And also they got something against poor design choices.
People have been telling him that many times. He doesn't see the difference, or he's just trying to be difficult. Like talking to a wall.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 24, 2015 02:17 PM |
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Protolisk said:
The best part is that, before the creation of the idea of a "mummies curse" in modern fantasy, the first book to actually have a mummy in it was about the 22nd century. It's kind of funny how fiction evolves over time.
While this may be true, one shouldn't forget the concept of the "mummy's curse". Back when they first started to excavate the tombs, many of the people fell ill after a while and even died. Because they couldn't find an apparent reason for this, while there was a strong link with messing with an ancient mummy burial chamber, the tale of the Mummy's Curse soon formed. People superstitiously believed that the mummy was taking vengeance against the people who disturbed his final resting place.
In reality, what happened was that the tombs, which had been sealed off for centuries, had all sorts of molds and fungi on the interior walls, slowly growing over all those many years. When disturbed, they released spores into the air of the tomb, which caused severe illness in the people breathing it in. We know about that today and how to prevent it, but back then they didn't have a clue what was causing it. And like with most things, people don't like a black hole in their knowledge and understanding of how things work, so they "invented" the probable cause to be the curse of a long-dead mummy.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 24, 2015 04:51 PM |
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I will post the lich soon, still working at him.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 06:38 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I will post the lich soon, still working at him.
Okay, like I said, that skull looks rather silly. Could you have made it more fleshy and rotten, instead of a bleached skull?
As with all of your arguments, LizardWarrior, I see where you are coming from.
Yeah, I agreed, the skeleton has a whole bunch of spikes and was overly designed. I thought you were mad at it being armored in some spots over others, but now that seems a bit silly. However, I didn't consider the new upgraded name. Considering the Skeles are called Hoplites, what is the new direction Necro is going in, as you say, hoplites would have different weapons, and aren't hoplites Greek in nature? I don't personally mind the weapon, but now, calling it a Hoplite raises other questions.
Zombies do have the "fresh" look, but they still weren't ever important. Which is why I never liked them.
I do think it's funny saying "They should have made the Lich more like an Egyptian mummy" right before saying "but the faction isn't even Egyptian inspired." That's because I don't think it even is Egyptian inspired, it's more Sumerian, as you say. Still, I would prefer browned leathery skin over grey myself, or of course a skull, but I never really understood "meth head" like most people were tossing around. It's face doesn't look healthy, and that's because, well, it's not healthy, so I suppose the face of a meth addict, which definitely isn't a healthy habit, would look similar, but I feel that's kind of the point. And, again, the Tomb Kings don't really need to be brought up since those are indeed Egyptian inspired, but, our Necro here isn't. More like its cousin.
As for the vampires, it is true, the armor is big dark and brooding, but I feel we won't ever get past this. Lots of "medieval fantasy" loves big, overly designed armor. It's not just Heroes fault, it's more of the whole industry, but of course, you could want it to be toned down, and I agree. I would still prefer some armor myself, but, if you've seen me before, I would accept Nosferatu vampires if done well, like in H3. But, as long as they aren't Nosferatu vampires, or other bestial vampires, and instead the more Dracula, "refined" vampires, I would expect them to look a bit more prepared. You don't like healthy vampires, unless it is contrasted with more rotten and dead looking things, which seems fair. You say the Lamasu isn't rotten enough, so I can understand this.
As for the Lamasu's bat wings, I assume this was done previously because they didn't want two Griffin like units, which would have been the Griffin and the Lamasu if that was the case, as well as the "lore" reasoning that a Lamasu is indeed a Manticore, but modified, so it wasn't much of a stretch to have the Lamasu also have those wings. Then the Manticore was added in. In H7, now, the Griffin isn't naturally playable, but still exists, but the manticore is out yet again, so why have the Lamasu have eagle wings if there will be griffins anyway, as well as no manticores, as our vote made sure of that? As for lion form, probably because it looks more menacing, really. I kept thinking the Greek sphinx was identical to the Egyptian one, but you are right, they have wings, too. But there still are Lamassu sculptures that are lion bodied anyway, and they want a Sumerian mythology... I thought. Now with the hoplite, I am not so sure anymore.
So, for your spider, you'd like something like this guy? It would indeed be creepy, but I would find that to be overly designed. Why not just have the bug? Why not just have the zombie? It'd raise too many question to me. Even more, I personally liked the Namtaru, as it was fresh over the constant bone dragons, made worse by it always looking like the Dungeon and Sylvan respective dragons, and its dual form ability was refreshing, but now obsolete by the new double Champion spot. But it seems you don't have much a problem of spiders in the first place.
Well, I think "crazy b@astard" is indeed synonymous for mad scientist, really, but semantics is in the way of that. And, I guess this might start making them lean towards sci-fi again, which you may dislike, but I didn't really see Namtaru "venom" as real venom in the first place, but this would just be a personal thing. I thought, since it really is an embalming agent, then it must be like a powerful form of formaldehyde, which is quite effective at keeping dead things preserved. And formaldehyde is particularly deadly to already living things, so much that about an once of it inside you would almost nearly kill you. So, if you get a pound of this "venom" injected into you: voila! a dead body, seemingly killed by a toxin in the body. A "venomous injection", if you will. But, that's just how I personally see it, you don't have to. And, again, that lamasu's head, though cool with the adorned headdress, looks really silly to me with a bare skull on a fleshy body. Could you perhaps reverse its "done" status and make it a more rotten, zombified look? After all, that's what I said the lamasu really was when you down to it, a powerful, more effective zombie, but I am not much the photoshop wizard you seem to be.
As for your mist or bat thing, I wouldn't mind either, especially the former! The shadow stepping is, I suppose, a normal magical spell, which would make sense that a former lich would still have magical aptitude, but I think it would be nice to become mist as its mode of "teleportation". Still frightening, but also "realistic" in terms of mythology.
I guess I am glad to be said to use actual arguments. Above all, I understand that the model reuse was a cheap move, but I personally have hope. That doesn't diminish your right to feel outraged though.
Of course, I had hope for H6 to, and I felt mostly okay with it, but, it seems almost no one else was.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 24, 2015 07:01 PM |
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@LizardWarrior
Lamasu needs not any model change except the one regarding the colour. Colour change can make it dark enough without looking silly. This is what I mean.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 24, 2015 07:09 PM |
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How about now?
@Sleeping_sun: I don't like the current model, but I'd at least get rid of that ugly hair
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 07:13 PM |
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Someone posted this on the mmh7 website. See, how hard could it be?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 24, 2015 07:16 PM |
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In fact he posted it here first: Fan-artowork thread
Also, has anyone else observed that the lich has a mummified penis?
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 07:20 PM |
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Thanks.  Credit to him.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 24, 2015 08:01 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Also, has anyone else observed that the lich has a mummified penis?
You little pervert.
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted January 24, 2015 08:14 PM |
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That Lich looks so much better than the official one. It just goes to show that a simple head replacement could do the job. Edit: And removing the spikes.
Too bad skeletal Liches don't exist in Ashan. 
____________
Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 08:21 PM |
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That is still not skeletal. If anything it's more ghoulish with less flesh, but still better than H6 version.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted January 24, 2015 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 20:47, 24 Jan 2015.
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Reposting Minastir lich on blog and liking it big amount of time instead of #something might work even better for fixing current lich.
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This thread is pages long: 
