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Blizzardboy
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posted July 21, 2020 04:12 AM |
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The durability of the soul after bodily death was already well-established by the 2nd Temple Period, not counting the Sadducee sect. It precedes the New Testament.
There is nothing about the soul to make it 'die' or decay.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 09:12 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
The durability of the soul after bodily death was already well-established by the 2nd Temple Period, not counting the Sadducee sect. It precedes the New Testament.
There is nothing about the soul to make it 'die' or decay.
Still there is no verse to say "immortal soul", quite the contrary.
God alone has immortality. The soul that sins shall die. Man became a "living soul", he does not have an immortal soul. So it's rather correct to say we are "living souls", we don't "have a soul".
But I'm tired of saying it over and over again since you guys will just believe what you like. 
Now I remembered why I hated debates in the first place, they go nowhere.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 21, 2020 12:42 PM |
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I don't know what specific definition you're using for 'immortal' but it was already a given in ancient Judaism, namely the 2nd Temple Period, that the soul continued to exist beyond death (Daniel, 1 & 2 Maccabees) and the 1st generation of Jews that were Christians were already familiar with the idea or else they wouldn't have prayed for the dead.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 12:55 PM |
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Look, I don't really care when this idea entered Judaism and Christianity, the point is that I don't think it's supported in the Bible and I've already said why, but you and Baronus just seem to ignore what doesn't suit your beliefs. So how can we have a decent discussion? 
But I have time on my hands, so here's more for you:
- How can it be said that Christ brought immortality to light (2 Tim. 1:10) if man has been immortal since Adam?
- How can immortality be sought for (Rom. 2:7) if it is already a present possession?
- If Adam had an immortal soul, why was he thrust out of the garden that he might not "live forever"? (Gen. 3:22)
- If the souls of the righteous go to heaven at death, why a resurrection? (Usually the reply is, "for the purpose of Judgment," but this implies that souls are rewarded first, and then judged!)
- "If Christ be not raised . . . then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." (1 Cor. 15:17,18). But how can these dead saints be said to be sleeping if their souls are already in heaven, and how can it be said that these saints would perish unless Christ be raised, if their immortal souls go to bliss at death?
I fail to see how can you still believe this doctrine. But keep believing if that's what you want.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 21, 2020 02:57 PM |
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@Baronus
I don't learn more religion like your Jehovits. And don't change Mormon's word. Therefore Mormon also who taught physical:
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
Ok DD is completely right, because I know about
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 KJV
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 146:4 KJV says the same thing again
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
What DD said about Lazarus. You can find John 11:11-14 KJV
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Why? I wrote the sin. So you know about Genesis. Now I will continue:
Acts 7:60 KJV
"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
Romans 5:12 KJV
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
So we went replay.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 03:06 PM |
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Thank you, Ghost. Keep it up.
I'm glad at least one person here took an honest look at my posts. It was not all in vain.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 21, 2020 08:22 PM |
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2Tim1.10
He has abolished death, and he has brought to light immortality and life through the gospel,
... Whats your problem with this?! Its about immortality! He brougt to light immortality. So we have immortality! This scraps as all others tell us we have immortal souls!
Rom 2.5
Your stubborn refusal to repent is only storing up retribution for yourself on that Day of retribution
when God's just verdicts will be made known.
He will repay everyone as their deeds deserve.
For those who aimed for glory and honour and immortality by persevering in doing good, there will be
eternal life; but for those who out of jealousy have taken for their guide not truth but injustice, there will be the
fury of retribution.
...
Red all. This is about Gods Judgement. There is nothing abut that bad pepole died completly. Soul too. There is fury of retribution.
So hell because spirit cant be destroyed.
Gen 3.22 Then Yahweh God said, 'Now that the man has become like one of us in knowing good from evil, he
must not be allowed to reach out his hand and pick from the tree of life too, and eat and live for ever!'
... Thats hard to understand but its not about ,died souls'. God closed garden because continuation living there was danger. Evil man who is like 'god' and has all powers of paradise! Its much danger than Hitler and Stalin. And this is probably the sense. Salvation would be impossible. So God give us Earth to penance.
Cor 1.15.17
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is pointless and you have not, after all, been released
from your sins.
In addition, those who have fallen asleep in Christ are utterly lost.
...
Ofcourse goes to hell. Its not about died souls!
...
I think that we dont need ,new inventions' in based theology. Since 2000 years we have Fathers of Church teaching authorities synods.
So we can add only stupidess. We dont able be 'better' than Church. Only maximum stupid. Its pride.
Of course all Bible scrap can be interpretated in weird style but all scraps must be accurated! We cant have nonsenses.
All must be sensible. Only logical interpretation is that we have mortal body and immortal spirit! In other case you must destroy a lot of Bible scraps.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 08:29 PM |
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For the last time, we do not have immortal souls. We are living souls.
I am done discussing with you, Baronus. Keep believing in what you want. Peace.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 21, 2020 08:32 PM |
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Yes
@Baronus
I don't think you're an expert on religion. But I can help you. Lutheranism who teach the coming of Jesus, and the ascension into heaven will end. We look together.
Luke 23:43 NIV
"Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
How?
John 5:28, 29 NIV
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice. 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
Therefore, the dead are.. and they get a resurrection in paradise.
What you (DD) think about it?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 08:40 PM |
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Ghost said:
Luke 23:43 NIV
"Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
How?
John 5:28, 29 NIV
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice. 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
Therefore, the dead are.. and they get a resurrection in paradise.
What you (DD) think about it?
In Luke 23:43, heaven is not mentioned and neither are souls. The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes in His kingdom. Therefore, the passage should read: Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.
John 5:28, 29 is pretty clear: the dead are IN THEIR GRAVES and they will be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to judgement. Because, and I am tired of saying it, we do not have an immortal soul that goes to heaven. That's plainly unscriptural.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted July 21, 2020 08:46 PM |
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Quite right. So their teaching says the dead get resurrection in paradise.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 21, 2020 08:52 PM |
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@dd
Well, consider that it isn't either/or. People will eventually be reunited with their resurrected, glorified bodies (or be eternally lost), but their soul always continues to exist after bodily death and they are in Heaven in a state of joy.
The soul isn't something that decays and dies, but people were created as a kind of rational animal, having an immortal soul like an angel but also consisting of matter like a beast, so we aren't complete until the final resurrection. Right now we are still in the womb, as it were.
When doing spiritual meditation in Sacred Text, the goal isn't to put one part of scripture versus another, but to make them all harmonious.
Peace.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 08:55 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
@dd
It isn't either/or. People will eventually be reunited with their resurrected, glorified bodies (or be eternally lost), but their soul continues to exist after bodily death and they are in Heaven in a state of joy.
Give me verses that support your claim, please. And no, "because the Church says so" doesn't cut it for me.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 21, 2020 08:59 PM |
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Ok I'll dig it up when I'm home, but be warned that it will be Church related  I am not fond of reinventing the wheel.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted July 21, 2020 09:55 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Ok I'll dig it up when I'm home, but be warned that it will be Church related I am not fond of reinventing the wheel.
Okay, just as long as you don't brand me as a heretic or something. 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 21, 2020 10:41 PM |
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Luke 23:43 NIV
"Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
How?
John 5:28, 29 NIV
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice. 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
...
No!!! Its manipulation! You really literraly believe that died peoples are in cmentary? And waiting for spirit ressurection?! Ofcourse it is nonsense. And oposite to this:
today you will be with me in paradise.”
YOU WILL BE! Not I ressurect you! His spirit will be in paradise. You cant make new text combined from two. This way you can make as you want.
...
Second citatum is about bodies ressurection. At the end of times!
We have two moments.
After death human body is in cmentary, human spirit in paradise purgatory or hell.
At the end of times will be bodies ressurection and Last Judgement.
Present time in haven people dont have bodies. Only Jesus Mary Henoch and Elias has gone with bodies to paradise.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 22, 2020 07:32 AM |
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Hmm Lutheranism also says:
Acts 24:15
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
Job 14:13-15
"13
“If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14
If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal[a] to come.
15
You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made."
Tombstone and cemetery in paradise is a mere metaphor. But ok that you don't fit the Lutheranism. Remember Bible verses exist. No one can make an idea. Catholic is the biggest idea: Augustine of Hippo
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 22, 2020 08:38 AM |
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In Job time people dont know what is after death! But we have next parts of the Bible! We have all New Testament! W cant tell:
If someone dies, will they live again?
Becouse we know! Its rather for atheists! If someone has internal fight. We cant tell it!
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 22, 2020 03:07 PM |
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I know! Excellent Baronus  I'm tired to talk about the Bible. But if you know Acts 2:34 NIV
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Because God decided who would go to heaven. So you meet Job in paradise, if you're still alive the time of Jesus' coming. So armageddon!
And Psalm 37:9, 11, 29
"For those who are evil will be destroyed,
but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land.
But the meek will inherit the land
and enjoy peace and prosperity.
The righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.
And then Revelation 20:3
"He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
So someone sins. And he/she goes to Hell. No Job, when sturdy.
I could write about Pentecostal variation. I think that was enough. But Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in Hell. And you knew about Mormon.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 22, 2020 04:17 PM |
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In Bible man destruction means hell.
Remember Nicene Creed:
Credo Nicea
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate ,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
If someone dont respect it he is not a christian and I suppose talk in other thread about other religions. This is about christianity.
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This thread is pages long: 
