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| Thread: Donald Trump recognizes AlQods as Israel’s capital city |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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friendofgunnar
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posted December 29, 2017 11:49 AM |
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That's a different story really because:
a)nobody knows the exact place of Christ's birth - move all the dirt you want.
b)nobody knows where the tomb is either.
That's an interesting question though. What if there was a tomb somewhere that was for sure where Jesus 'came back to life' - a message on the wall "God rulz Satan droolz" that was carbon dated to exactly 26 - 29 years for example. I think Christians would care about the cave itself, not where it was at. I'm not sure the Christians I know would even care (recall that Christ said he was building a kingdom of heaven, not of earth), but next time I'm around them I'll ask them.
The point I'm driving at is that Muslims come and touch the rock because supposedly that's where Muhammed lifted off when he went to heaven. How much attachment is there amongst the Jews for the actual material there?
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AlHazin
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posted December 29, 2017 01:36 PM |
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antipaladin said:
Whats alquds? If you are reffering to jerusalem the capitol of the jewish people and it religion under israely sovernigty please do so by name.
No. 
More seriously, there are multiple points. First of all, when referred to Jerusalem my country, regardless of the language used, employs AlQods and not Jerusalem. "President of USA proclaims East-AlQods as Israel's capital" is a typical sentence you will hear in our media, while you'll never hear "President of USA proclaims East-Jerusalem as Israel's capital" (this is an example, we know that in this case it is all of Jerusalem that is proclaimed Capital city). In this case the appellation is political. And it is pretty extremist.
Now why I personally used AlQods is to teach HCers how we call the city. Like I said to withdrawing Salamandre names are important and the way someone calls something says a lot not about the thing, but about the person calling it this rather than that. It's to make people understand the other point of view.
Yerushalaim means iirc "city of peace" or something, shalaim in Hebrew must mean salaam in Arabic. Yeru I have no clue, but if it's not "city", it might be "valley" or another geographical term. In AlQods (or AlQuds, I prefer using an O because the vowel rings more like and O than like a U), "Al" means "the" determining article, "Qods" means "Saint" or "Holy" (or "Saint One"/"Holy one" in English). Which means that the city doesn't exactly represent the same from our points of views. I also right it AlQods (and not Al-Qods), attached because in Arabic the artcile and the word are attached, I put a capital letter (there is no capital letter thing in Abdjad - Arabic - alphabet) to make western people notice where the word actually begins.
In islam the saintity of the city is put forward, for the Israelis (I guess) it's more the historical element that gives the city its importance. I'm not sure your attachement to the city is that religious.
A lot of words can lead to confusion too. For example, Geny is Isaraeli, but not a Jew. Technically speaking there is a differenciation in Arabic. And Israeli (note that I'm not speaking about the citizenship) is a banu Isra-eel, a son of Israel, named given to the prophete Jacob. Basically, Geny is Israeli where artu is Turkish and I am Arab, but Geny is no jewish - or a Jew - and artu is not muslim, while I am. A Jew or Yahoodee in Arabic is a praticant of Judaism, those who call God Yave I think (Yahwah in Arabic), and you can (technically, because you can't convert to judaism under normal circumstances) be a Jew without being as Israeli.
But because judaism has been restricted by Jews themseles to Israelis through history, the two words tend to refer to both notions, and even in Arabic the language abuse exists. Calling things by theur right name is rather complicated.
@fog: It's not only the temples or artifacts that are saint to muslims, it is the city itself, and this is where calling the city by AlQods becomes important. The city, and the place it is built in are holy, Abraham, Jacob, Ismael, Salomon, David, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad upon them peace and prayer are all prophetes of islam in the islamic philosophy, all what they accomplished as well, and all what they built, moreover the three religions are not distinc idealogies from different origins, they are linked, basically the same religion interpreted differently. In islam you can pray in a church or a cynagog as well, so a church or a cynagog are just as saint to me as a mosque. This is why it's not a good idea to try to move the buildings, not to mention that such a technology has yet to be made wohohooowww.
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friendofgunnar
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posted December 29, 2017 01:51 PM |
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I don't care what the muslims think, I asked about what the Jews think.
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artu
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posted December 29, 2017 02:12 PM |
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Geny is a jew, he is not a religious jew, Jew also refers to an ethnicity, Israeli is a nationality. Freud or Einstein are also called jews although they are openly non-religious.
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AlHazin
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posted December 29, 2017 02:47 PM |
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friendofgunnar said:
I don't care what the muslims think, I asked about what the Jews think.
I clarified this point of yours:
friendofgunnar said:
The point I'm driving at is that Muslims come and touch the rock because supposedly that's where Muhammed lifted off when he went to heaven.
To clarify that it's not the "material" that is valuable to muslims.
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Geny
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posted December 29, 2017 03:16 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 15:17, 29 Dec 2017.
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@fog
Quote:
That's a different story really because: [..]
That's not really the point. I'm not well versed enough in Christianity to point specific sites, but there are Christian holy sites in Israel that attract believers, certain mounts, certain churches... what happens if you move them? What happens to an average Christian? What happens to those who went to church every Sunday their whole lives? And what happens to those who bought a ticket to Israel specifically to visit these holy sites?
As for the material, as Artu mentioned, I am not religious so there are probably many meanings I am not aware of, but there is at least one big thing about the Temple Mount as it is known in Hebrew - it was the place of the Temple. The biggest, most important Temple of God. It has fallen twice since it was first built and now only a small part of its wall remains, known as the Wailing Wall and people from all over go there to pay their respects and put a little piece of paper with their prayers to God, because this little piece of stonework is considered to be the closest place to God in Judaism.
So there is both a material and historical significance to the place.
@AlHazin
Quote:
this is an example, we know that in this case it is all of Jerusalem that is proclaimed Capital city
Source please. Because I distinctly remember the US publish a clarification saying that Trump's proclamation did indeed acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel's capitol, but that it purposefully did not mention the borders of said Capitol.
On a side note your usage of Jewish and Israeli is wrong. As artu mentioned Jewish can be both a religion and an ethnicity while Israeli is nationality. Which means that I'm not as Israeli as you are Arabic, I am Israeli as you are Algerian. Arabic implies ethnicity like Jewish.
Quote:
But because judaism has been restricted by Jews themseles to Israelis through history
And that is just not true.
@Artu
I've mentioned you twice now in this post, but alas I have a small correction for you as well. I am not technically Jewish. My father is Jewish, my mother is not. In Judaism that means that I am not Jewish as it carries over from the mother's side. As I learned more and more about I also realized that I don't wish to be Jewish anyway. Israeli is more than enough for me.
That being said, most of my friends are Jewish and since I respect them and their beliefs, I took it upon myself to represent them here when I am able.
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friendofgunnar
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posted December 29, 2017 03:40 PM |
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Quote:
So there is both a material and historical significance to the place.
This is kind of what I was driving at - how important is each? I was working under the assumption that both you and AP were not really Jewish enough to care too much about the temple mount, but I was curious how religious peoples would answer the question.
In regards to Christianity, American protestantism was birthed in an environment of disdain for Catholicism's reverance for places and objects. My own family's sect took that philosophy to the nth degree. Additionally I live in an urban setting where religion's influence is marginal. I think I'd have a difficult time finding anybody who cared anything about a speck of holy dirt in the middle east.
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antipaladin
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posted December 29, 2017 04:54 PM |
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Your are rught im not religous enought , however for jewish relgious people it is by far the most importent city because of historical significense that predates islamic prohpet , the city of david. And the westren temple wall. As a site of religous importence . Not mention all around it. However despite israel tollrance to muslim pillgrims who come pray , said pilgrims only riot kill and make terror. So obiously israel wouldnt let them countinue do so. Would you alhuz , let me enter your house just to beat you up day aftwr day? I dont think so. Neither should the state of israel allow people who are fed and given free high eduction but choose to be thugs instead (and i mean palastinian terrorists)
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JollyJoker
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posted December 29, 2017 08:02 PM |
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It's not YOUR house, it's a DIVIDED house - like Berlin was divided.
Jews have been living 2000 years even without a "home country" just fine. Israel isn't a religious state. Only 80% of Iraels pop is nominally Jewish, with half of them being "Hiloni". ISRAEL'S capital city is Tel Aviv, the same as neither Mekka nor Medina are the capital cities of Saudi Arabia, but Riyadh is.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 29, 2017 09:32 PM |
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Only within the borders of what is "theirs".
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JollyJoker
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posted December 29, 2017 09:33 PM |
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AlHazin
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posted December 30, 2017 12:12 AM |
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Geny said:
Source please. Because I distinctly remember the US publish a clarification saying that Trump's proclamation did indeed acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel's capitol, but that it purposefully did not mention the borders of said Capitol.
Border or not, he said Jerusalem. East or west doesn't change a lot to the political consequences.
Geny said:
On a side note your usage of Jewish and Israeli is wrong. As artu mentioned Jewish can be both a religion and an ethnicity while Israeli is nationality. Which means that I'm not as Israeli as you are Arabic, I am Israeli as you are Algerian. Arabic implies ethnicity like Jewish.
Maybe I should have precised the word "israeli" in Arabic. There was originally a distinction between the two notions, prior to the Israeli state thus prior to employing the word "israeli" for a citizenship. The two meanings then are reffered to today by the word Jewish (when Moses went to Egypt he said to Pharaoh "I came to ask you to free my people, the children of Israel", those who followed him believing in his god became referred to as Jews).
Quote:
But because judaism has been restricted by Jews themseles to Israelis through history
Geny said:
And that is just not true.
Well it is true that for centuries converting to judaism was hardly achievable compared to christianity or islam, by those who were not born jews.
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Salamandre
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posted December 30, 2017 01:25 AM |
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That's a tough issue. 40 years that world leaders chitchat around Palestine's right to exist, yet we know what were they all waiting, it was for USA to make a decisive move. Now that it did, and wasn't the one expected (btw what they expected really, as USA always raised its veto against the two states solution) now they bicker like they are offended, while during 40 years they just didn't care.
When Russia "invaded" Ukraine, Obama pressed the french Hollande to boycott the communist evil by cancelling ongoing trades and we lost billions of euros by doing so. Hitting at Israel economy could have been a way to stop the illegal colonization, but no order came from above, so nothing was done.
Palestine is f*ed, it always was. How divided? If there is no state, there is no property, you do whatever you want inside, the proof.
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antipaladin
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posted December 30, 2017 07:51 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
It's not YOUR house, it's a DIVIDED house - like Berlin was divided.
Jews have been living 2000 years even without a "home country" just fine. Israel isn't a religious state. Only 80% of Iraels pop is nominally Jewish, with half of them being "Hiloni". ISRAEL'S capital city is Tel Aviv, the same as neither Mekka nor Medina are the capital cities of Saudi Arabia, but Riyadh is.
no. tel aviv was never israely capitol. govermental buildings are in jerusalem - main bank and etc. this is a common mistake. 
it is my house just as much as usa is an american house and not bewlongs to indians whom you counquerd it from 400 years ago.
Quote:
Well it is true that for centuries converting to judaism was hardly achievable compared to christianity or islam, by those who were not born jews.
not true - there are specific criteria this is all.
converting to judaism
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Geny
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posted December 30, 2017 08:26 AM |
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Quote:
Border or not, he said Jerusalem. East or west doesn't change a lot to the political consequences.
See, that's the one thing I can't understand.
Israel is a sovereign state, correct?
It is internationally agreed that part of Jerusalem is presently within Israel's borders, correct?
So how can someone demand that a sovereign state won't decide on the place of its own capitol within its borders?
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artu
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posted December 30, 2017 10:37 AM |
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antipaladin said:
AlHazin said:
Well, it is true that for centuries converting to judaism was hardly achievable compared to christianity or islam, by those who were not born jews.
not true - there are specific criteria this is all.
converting to judaism
Well, your link is a guide for contemporary times. It is a very well-known fact that traditionally, Judaism wasn't exactly welcoming to newcomers with open arms. Don't get me wrong, as a non-religious person, I actually prefer it to the expansionist mind set of crusades or jihad, nothing as annoying as someone trying to convert you, especially if they're holding a sword.
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antipaladin
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posted December 30, 2017 02:30 PM |
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Its more akin to getting through a collegue course then undergoing few religous rituals.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 30, 2017 02:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Umm - what?
I must have deleted while you replied, sorry.
I read more on the topic and decided my post wasn't good and since no one had replied when I deleted, I thought it would be okay.
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AlHazin
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posted December 31, 2017 11:25 AM |
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Geny said:
See, that's the one thing I can't understand.
Israel is a sovereign state, correct?
It is internationally agreed that part of Jerusalem is presently within Israel's borders, correct?
So how can someone demand that a sovereign state won't decide on the place of its own capitol within its borders?
Yes, no.
Israel is recognized internationally as a sovreign state, thus the hypocrisy of the West indeed.
For my country Israel is not a sovreign state, it's not a country, its institutions are not recognized, Israeli passport carriers are refused because they officially have no citizenship for here. In all our media Israel is referred to as the Zionist Entity. Since we don't recognize Israel, we don't recognize any border to it, and Jerusalem with it. To give you a concrete example Algeria considers Israel like all of us consider ISIS.
Moreover, we have created here and we recognize the state of Palestine, with an official embassy here in Algiers, a country with these borders:
(Those of the British mandate over Palestine, the ones Israel aims at).
And Jerusalem as its capital city.
You see my dear Geny that there's no hypocrisy from our side, and its upon our own considerations that we take positions, and in this case they legitimate the one we take (at least we are logical). But this is my country, because yes, the great majority of states in the world recognize Israel and thus play some kind of dumb game in this affair.
Or they simply do politics.
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antipaladin
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posted December 31, 2017 11:52 AM |
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So by your logic i can not recogonize the soverign state of algir and as part of france and get away with it? I do see hippocreasy wih you siding oboiusly the palastinian side. What about israely muslim arabs who enjoy life in israel? You know that atleast 40% of them reicves better financial stability thwn none muslim israelys and by extend more then half of the arabic world. This could never happen if "palastine" would exist
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