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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2022 07:48 AM |
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Just give us a break with that crap right from the Russian propaganda machine. Just one thing. RUSSIA is one of the powers that GUARANTEED the territorial integrity of Ukraine when the Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons. And as a GUARANTEE power Russia broke that in 2014 when they annexed the Crimea. And now they invaded the country ith military force in order to stage a coup.
There is no excusing this, no whataboutisms, it's just facts. And the Ukraine as the attacked has every right to ask for help - and why wouldn't it get any? Because Russia threatens to destroy the whole world if they don't get what they want?
That's something you can't give in to, because that creates a precedent. And the Ukraine is right: had the West reacted a bit harsher in 2014, had they drawn the right conclusions and started to keep economic ties to Russia "managable" in case of a crisis, THEN we wouldn't have all those problems now.
So if you want to put the blame on someone, put it on those who were on in 2014, especially within the EU.
Now? As much as it hurts, we have to make a stand to show Russia that there is a limit to what they can bully themselves to.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2022 09:06 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 09:07, 12 Oct 2022.
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Probably, only when the US finally leaves the Europeans without pants, they will begin to understand something. But looking at the JollyJoker, I think that even then they will not understand anything (or are afraid to understand).
It's all about human psychology. It's hard to admit that you were a fool.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 12, 2022 10:03 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 10:03, 12 Oct 2022.
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JJ, remember the Cuba crisis? USA did not tolerate it and they were absolutely right, so why won't you apply the same logic the other way around?
I'm not saying Russia is not doing wrong, I'm just saying we have no lessons to give, and I very much doubt the general population agrees to cut electricity and heater for Ukraine. Why not for Yemen too then?
Oh also, we can't buy gas from Putin because of human rights but no problem with Ben Salmane, makes sense.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2022 12:36 PM |
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The show in Cuba was only for the public. The US pulled their missiles out of Turkey and Southern Italy in exchange. If you consider what happened - the US already having missiles along the Soviet border in ALLIED Turkey, then Russians deploying "on the US border" in an ALLIED country, then both pulling the missiles out - it bears no comparison with what has been happening here. The Ukraine is NEUTRAL. It isn't part of neither NATO nor EU - but in 2014 Russia, as a guarantee power for territorial integrity - annexed the Crimea from Ukraine.
Is it any wonder that Ukraine turned to the West (which wasn't all THAT forthcoming until earlier this year, remember)?
And it has nothing to do with "lessons" or human rights, because in that case we couldn't buy from ANYONE. It's simply about putting firm resistance against military aggression. Ukraine is the biggest European country (excluding Russia). It is an important part of the world economy. Why would the world tolerate an attack? What do you think why Finland and Sweden wants into NATO asap? Because you obviously cannot trust Putin's Russia to keep to treaties and agreements, THAT's why (and that was also different in 1962 - they DID actually trust each other then).
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2022 03:42 PM |
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Anytime now, Russia is on the verge of collapse and Putin's got terminal cancer.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 13, 2022 03:02 PM |
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I like purerogue's language style, if purerogue is a girl. Amen! I drink the OBOLON Ukrainian beer 5% without girl pussy.. Amen! Because I like maximum.. Amen! Girl's face, body and persona are very good combined law.. Amen! 
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2022 03:16 PM |
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Thanks for the offer.
We shall not be meeting in Ukraine.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2022 11:35 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 11:35, 15 Oct 2022.
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1950 UN vote cartoon:
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 15, 2022 01:02 PM |
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Still works - replace US with Rus and limit the arms to lift to 4, then you are there. I mean, if you are in a coalition with Belarus, Syria, North Korea, and Nicaragua, you can practically guarantee that you are on the right side of the tracks, can you?
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted October 16, 2022 10:23 AM |
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Edited by RerryR at 10:24, 16 Oct 2022.
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Salamandre said:
...
That being said, Putin sent only a tiny fraction of Russian potential army in Ukraine, they have been fighting since mars at 1:6 ratio, so the question is now him being able to draft more or not. He also was very moderate in his war strategy, he avoided civilians as much as possible, he avoided the destruction of power stations, the destruction of infrastructures and such, while he COULD do it ...
To put a little bit in perspective to what Sal is trying to say here.
There are reports that the ratio of military vs civilian targets is 1 to 60. There have been massive attacks on critical infrastructure just recently. We have all seen the pictures of the completely boomed city of Mariupol.
"Putin sent only a tiny fraction of Russian potential army in Ukraine"
this is very questionable. The documented loss of equipment is massive, soldiers on the field are clearly lacking and now they are already recruiting in prisons and taking people from the streets because of mobilization. There are reports from russian soldiers that are taken from different regiments like marine and now have to serve in fields that they are not trained for, stretching the russian military.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 16, 2022 11:14 PM |
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RerryR said:
To put a little bit in perspective to what Sal is trying to say here.
I am not "trying", I made some research, you didn't. Don't forget that first loss in war is the truth, just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.
It is hard to know for precise how many civilians died as now, but Ukrainian sources (which for sure are exaggerated) give a number under 7000, for 8 months of combat. Let's take it as valid for now.
Now, to show you what "to put in perspective" really means, the IRAQ 2003 war provoked 7000 civilians causalities in one month, due to USA airstrikes, then up to 1,033,000 civilians excess deaths by the end of conflict. (google)
According to the Centre for Humanitarian Law in Belgrade, around 9,401 people were killed or went missing in Kosovo during the period of the NATO (we, the good guys) bombing, the majority of them Albanians. (source)
First, a war without civilians casualties doesn't exist, so if you want to judge such, better use comparisons otherwise it means nothing. Second, Amnesty International released a report where it clearly states that:
"Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.
Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.
Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law."
Which means, when complaining about Russian bombarding civil - which I don't deny, the equation should also contain the parameter Ukrainian army who uses them as shield, otherwise you are part of the propaganda.
As for the 'reports' you mentioned, show them. Show a serious source that Russia recruits in prison, all we have is a blurry video not sourced, while the comment in Washington post says : "It is not clear when the video was filmed, but it appears to provide the first on-record evidence of a recruitment strategy that has been rumor for months: soliciting prisoners to trade prison garb for military uniforms as a way of replenishing Russia’s ranks on the battlefield."
"It is not clear", "it appears", "rumor". The alphabet of each propaganda. Be smarter than them.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2022 11:17 PM |
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Quote:
Which means, when complaining about Russian bombarding civil - which I don't deny, the equation should also contain the parameter Ukrainian army who uses them as shield, otherwise you are part of the propaganda.
Yes, the defenders are the actual guilty part because they don't put themselves before the guns of the attackers and FORCE the attackers to actually target the civilians, making the attackers angels because they(?) keep civilian casulaties to a minimum.
Are you paid by the Russians for this dirty propaganda?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2022 11:55 PM |
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"dirty propaganda", lol.
it's amazing how you don't ever question the narrative you're told by globalist sources, jj. you don't even QUESTION any opposing viewpoint, you only straight-out call it bs without investing any effort whatsoever to see if it actually COULD be true.
i mean, it's really amazing to witness this sheer LACK OF THOUGHT in an adult. i know you're not the only one; far from it, but ffs... do some snowing INVESTIGATING of your OWN, and FIND OUT who's telling the truth. jesus. you literally never question ANYTHING, do you? you just accept the herd propaganda, and argue against anything that contradicts it; without even ATTEMPTING to have ANY valid argument or LOGICAL scrutiny regarding ANY media you're subjected to(herd-fed or not).
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted October 17, 2022 06:45 PM |
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Ben80 said:
Probably, only when the US finally leaves the Europeans without pants, they will begin to understand something. But looking at the JollyJoker, I think that even then they will not understand anything (or are afraid to understand).
It's all about human psychology. It's hard to admit that you were a fool.
Now try a bit of reverse psychology. Russia is like a bubble before the burst. When you will admit, that you were a fools all the time?
You are simply living in a different, world. And that is world full of lies.
* Russia misused twice great famine in UA to decrease its population and replace it with its own. Stealing them all their own food.
* Russia is one of causators of 2WW, destroying Poland, Ukraine in the process. And botching some other states.
* Russia never wanted to help anyone against Nazi attacks, until they were forced to switch sides. (Nope, they never wanted to save Czech Republic. They only wanted to acquire it first, before Nazi.)
* Russia don't value human life, neither culture. Just take a look around, how mercilessly you are sending your own people to die, for happiness of a few warmongers. Stealing fridges and washing machines is not a culture.
* Trockij was that most dangerous, yet he died. And from then, all his principles of total war are applied worldwide.
* Russia principle of lies was tolerated far too long. That was a huge mistake, for which world is paying right now.
* If it's your neighbourhood, you just can't say, that it doesn't matter.
* Additionally Russia is the most racist, arrogant state in the world. With highest level of corruption. Yet, they frequently try to criticise the others. How false.
This is regarding current government and not people. Even given that strong 'post-fact' massage. Most people hold on.
Currently russia is collapsing and will certainly collapse much sooner than Europe. Using iranian weapons or not, will not change the outcome. Neither 'secreto' gas weapon, which is almost eliminated by now.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 17, 2022 07:12 PM |
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Pol said:
* Russia never wanted to help anyone against Nazi attacks, until they were forced to switch sides. (Nope, they never wanted to save Czech Republic. They only wanted to acquire it first, before Nazi.)
Almost very good.
In the fact the Soviet Union made and allied with Nazi, and then attacked against Finland.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted October 17, 2022 08:12 PM |
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@Sal,
I wanted to put your statement in perspective because to me it sounded like a relativization to what I observe. You say Putin is trying to "he avoided civilians as much as possible" and I put that in question, especially at the beginning of the war and now you have plenty of reports that this is just not true.
Could it have been worse? Yes certainly. But I believe there are reasons for Putin to not do that. First, the support he has is not a lot and if he recklessly continues to bomb cities and civilians the support would perhaps fade much faster. There's always a reaction from other countries.
Second, Ukraine is a big land with many people living in it. At some point you will run out of missiles to shoot, it's just as simple as that. Okay now he's switching to Kamikaze drones because these seem to be cheaper.
Now: "That being said, Putin sent only a tiny fraction of Russian potential army in Ukraine,"
Okay, why sends so little? The war is currently not in his favor, if you ask me now would be a good time to throw in more to save the gains he already made.
Maybe you mean his air force or marine? Both do seem not really helpful in Ukraine.
Personal and mechanized units however he has used A LOT and they suffered heavy losses. In fact, so many losses that he has to call for mobilization. Why would he do that, if he would not run out of personnel to fight for him voluntarily in Ukraine?
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/16/world/europe/russia-wagner-ukraine-video.html
Heres the video where Wagner seems to be recruiting in prisons. Is it fake? Very unlikely. Why wouldn't they try to get new soldiers from prison? It's legit. Just questionable.
Okay these are my observations and now I made my point. But most likely I am completely fooled by propaganda.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2022 08:23 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 21:00, 17 Oct 2022.
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@Pol,
You are just sick people who have distorted everything that is possible. It is useless to teach you history - you never want to know the truth. The West has always lived only by lies and does not want to know anything but lies. Everything you (Westerners) write bad about Russia actually applies to you. This is your most characteristic feature. You are racists, you are liars, you are murderers. That's how you've been all your history, and that's how you remain today.
Anger will not help you - you are doomed. You lived well before at the expense of the rest of the world, but now the end is coming. Irony of fate - for centuries Europeans had colonies, and now they themselves are a colony (USA).
But Russia is doing well now and will continue to do well.
You Pol have said so much nonsense that I can only advise you to consult a psychiatrist.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 17, 2022 09:08 PM |
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Salamandre said:
If Zelensky refuses negotiating as until now, he will be responsible for all civilians killed further, live with.
that was their main goal from the getgo. why do you think all the jews living in ukraine were allowed to flee to israel, while the actual ukrainians were told to stand and fight? it's a war against the predominant white western world(russia included). it always was, and always will be about decreasing the white populace; and the jews are behind it all.
they're behind all western anti-white media, they're behind communism and the collapse of entire nations, they're behind everything carving non-jew strength up and making themselves stronger in the process.
that is what they do. they are anti EVERYONE who isn't jewish.
if you doubt me, look into it. do some investigating of your own (as much as you can while you still can, because they've taken over every search engine and media company, and are actively filtering out anything against their narratives and attacking anyone who stands against their endless lies).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 17, 2022 09:09 PM |
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@RerryR
Look, I won't waste my time a second time, I made my points and gave links to support them. If you think Russian army kills more civilians than other armies, show evidence contradicting the figures I gave. If you think Putin wants to annex the whole Ukraine, show where he stated it, there is none. If you think Russian army lost a lot of personnel, show a detailed source, because the only one available until now is BBC news, and that reports a max of 5000 casualties (3000 confirmed + 40/60% uncorfirmed) by may 31/2022, and we know Russians most causalities were before that time. If you think he mobilizes to take Ukraine, listen again to his speech, he was very clear on the matter.
Medias invent a lot of things, especially Putin's supposed "goals", so they can claim later "look, he didn't fill it".
Always try to get the right info, not to win some argument in forums, but because only valid data can help negotiating peace. If one thinks (as I read here, tons of hate from some) Russians are the worst people on earth, rapists, criminals, racists, fascists, then who would want to make peace with such monsters?
And that's why you get that Zelensky fool who now has dreams about taking Kremlin next, while the only thing he will achieve is getting his people killed until the last. We sent him weapons and money so he can negotiate from power position, and not start his egomaniac war against a country 100x more powerful.
If Zelensky refuses negotiating as until now, + continues his terrorist actions on Russian soil, he will be the only responsible for all civilians killed further.
There is time for showing honor, then there is time for showing wisdom and make compromises.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 17, 2022 09:25 PM |
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The problem is, that negotiations and follow-up treaties and agreements with Russia obviously aren't worth the paper they are written on.
Negotiation makes sense only with people who
1) keep to their promides and treaties and
2) are prepared to offer something.
The current Russia doesn't 1) and aren't 2) - so why negotiate?
Sure, everyone not directly involved wants this to end "somehow", preferably by negotiation, but what is there to be gained? Why would Russia give up on their dreams to build the old empire again, what would keep them from waiting till spring and then renew their war effort? And why would Ukraine accept territorial losses?
And no one in their right mind TRUSTS Russia anymore now, so no matter what happens, the situation between Russia and the West won't get a lot better soon. As they said, the fat years are over - for everyone except for those who profit from the war.
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