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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2023 01:22 PM |
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Yes, I did that Sal. You're right.
I agree with you on Europe and what should be done.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 06, 2023 01:37 PM |
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You go back to Romania, DD.. 
Okay the world is going to snow..
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 06, 2023 01:41 PM |
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Ghost said:
You go back to Romania, DD..
Okay the world is going to snow..
Romania has gone long ago to snow. I doubt anyone can save it. But I will do what I can.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 06, 2023 01:56 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2023 02:23 PM |
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Salamandre said:
.
The existence of Nato is pertinent, it is it's extension up to Russia borders which triggers problems, and Putin kept denouncing it as a red line since 2008. People don't listen because they are in a preaching position instead of a political one, with all the additional parameters that implies.
The problem with your statement is that NATO DIDN'T extend their borders to Russia since 2008 - except after the war with Finnland.
Instead Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted April 06, 2023 02:45 PM |
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Can we stop using the scam of Crimea "annexation" as an argument?
Annexation : possession taken of a piece of land or a country, usually by force or without permission.
Human rights investigation (HRI)
"The latest survey in Ukraine by the Pew Research Center, reveals 91% of Crimeans believe the recent referendum was free and fair and only 4% believe Ukraine is correct in not recognising the referendum results. The poll numbers underline that the official results of the Crimea referendum are a true reflection of the will of the Crimean people."
Thanks.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2023 02:57 PM |
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OK, let's assume the Crimea referendum was all proper and flawless.
Still it was held after Russian troops had entered Crimea.
Do you think swollen-faced lunatic cares for (Ukrainian, Russian, Chechen, Ossetian or whatever) peoples' opinion?
Do you believe the people of the "mainland" Ukraine want to be occupied by Russia?
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted April 06, 2023 04:33 PM |
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Yeah, let's assume we kept lying for 9 years, which lead to unfair vilification and tons of sanctions towards Russia + unnecessary expansion of Nato, let's forget all this as is rather uncomfortable and now focus on why Russia does what it said will do but no one listened as we were too busy replicating the lie.
Did I sum well?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted April 06, 2023 04:59 PM |
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We had this discussion. This was made in April 2014.
An annexation is an annexation. It's against international law AND a direct breach of the treaty Russia signed as a guarantee power of Ukraines borders. (If it wasn't, Germany could annex certain parts of France, poll positive afterwards and all would be fine.)
So can we stop using strawmans here and come back to the question I addressed: NATO DIDN'T extend NATO to RUssia's borders since 2004. Finnland is the direct result of Russia attacking Ukraine.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2023 05:21 PM |
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Which regions in France have been polled by the French government and expressed their will to join Germany?
"Polling in 2008 by the Ukrainian Centre for Economic and Political Studies, also called the Razumkov Centre, found that 63.8% of Crimeans (76% of ethnic Russians, 55% of ethnic Ukrainians, and 14% of ethnic Crimean Tatars, respectively) would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia"
You are a democrat only when it goes as you want. If the people (demos = people, kratos = rule) want otherwise, is a strawman and should be ignored. Had that polling show the opposite, you would have been the first to link it to shut me up. Typical.
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted April 06, 2023 07:17 PM |
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Salamandre said:
"Polling in 2008 by the Ukrainian Centre for Economic and Political Studies, also called the Razumkov Centre, found that 63.8% of Crimeans (76% of ethnic Russians, 55% of ethnic Ukrainians, and 14% of ethnic Crimean Tatars, respectively) would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia"
That's true. But it won't change a fact that voting in 2014 was illegal and in 2008 it was done on sample of people only, which usually means around 2000 people. So, it's not whole country.
Let me say, based on political parties researches before elections in our country, that sometimes win parties, which end like second. Doing voting researches is fine but it can't substitute regular voting results.
Noteworthy, Crimea is land of Tatars and they were deported outside of their homeland by Russia twice in huge waves. So present support is result of extensive russification.
If you would ask Tatars, if they would like to have Crimea under UA or Russia, they will told you UA. Obviously. Even if they would prefer Tatarstan.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2023 07:59 PM |
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I think you missed my previous post with link to polls after the voting.
"The latest survey in Ukraine by the Pew Research Center, reveals 91% of Crimeans believe the recent referendum was free and fair and only 4% believe Ukraine is correct in not recognizing the referendum results. The poll numbers underline that the official results of the Crimea referendum are a true reflection of the will of the Crimean people."
So, BEFORE voting they tell they want to join Russia, AFTER the voting the polls (91% is not 51%, is overwhelming by any metrics) confirm the accuracy of the vote, yet that doesn't mean anything to you other than "its illegal" or "it was only a sample of population". Ok.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 06, 2023 08:35 PM |
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But it's nonsense. The article itself is completely false.
In 2014 the Ukrainian president was pro-Russia and not more than a puppet. He fled to Russia when there were widespread protests because he was opposed to the EU-Ukrainian Association agreement and the parliament removed him.
It was then when Russia annexed the Crimea, an act of war against the Budapest memorandum which Russia signed.
Everything else is desinformation.
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Salamandre
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posted April 06, 2023 11:47 PM |
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The Pew Research Center poll validating the accuracy of the 2014 vote is in every serious article about Crimea referendum, Wikipedia included. Never mentioned in medias because that would rush the crumbling of all the fallacious strategy the West made up to destabilize Russia.
The only thing that matters is what Crimean people want and they made it clear, three times and every time is independent source related. At overwhelming percentages.
No matter how desperately you try to switch to other irrelevant details and cry to "disinformation", when you affirm Russia annexed Crimea you push a lie, as simple as that.
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Pol
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posted April 07, 2023 12:11 AM |
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Missed and I can't verify it any more, sorry Sal.
In my opinion pre 2014 Crimea was pro-russian, albeit I thought it was between 50-60%. So more tight. Numbers in these polls are a bit higher but not about much.
That doesn't legalize what russians did though, sending in "green men" to forge voting is not acceptable in 21st century. (It breaks international laws.) They also stole a lots of UA and Tatars property.
Politically speaking, Crimea is a troublesome place. And would be best to remain in the similar state like it was. So part of UA (preferably on somewhat better relations), with close ties to Russia. That's ofc not possible atm.
Pls don't forget that Russia stole whole Black Sea Fleet, which after fall of CCCP should fall to UA. (based on docking assumpted rights)
Cursed Kuznecov is just a symptom.
The Russians did a lot of bad here, their attitude is overall not acceptable. They just act as murderes and robbers, exactly like the Horde - but that was a different century. It's also pretty retarded. But in contrary they see themselves as a saviours and heroes. The conflict between reality and figments can't be bigger.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 07, 2023 08:49 AM |
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Salamandre said:
The Pew Research Center poll validating the accuracy of the 2014 vote is in every serious article about Crimea referendum, Wikipedia included. Never mentioned in medias because that would rush the crumbling of all the fallacious strategy the West made up to destabilize Russia.
The only thing that matters is what Crimean people want and they made it clear, three times and every time is independent source related. At overwhelming percentages.
No matter how desperately you try to switch to other irrelevant details and cry to "disinformation", when you affirm Russia annexed Crimea you push a lie, as simple as that.
The Pew Poll simply doesn't matter. Because the referendum was illegal and the annexation was illegal under international and Ukrainian right. And it would have been declared illegal, but Russia could veto that, who'd have thought it.
It just doesn't matter. Might doesn't make right.
You just make claims like the NATO one which is just nonsense as well. Since NATO didn't expand their borders to Russia since 2004 (and when they took on the Baltic States Putin had no problem with it).
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Salamandre
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posted April 07, 2023 12:50 PM |
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Of course the poll doesn't matter, legally. It only underlines the accuracy between the referendum result and popular opinion, which is basically how democracies work, or at least how they used to work. You can call the referendum illegal one thousand times, that will not change the substance of it, and that is what Crimean people wanted.
Crimea is not an ordinary chunk of land, without an ethnic majority, a language and a culture deriving from. They made a choice, we didn't accept. Is our problem, not their.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted April 07, 2023 01:08 PM |
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It's not about Crimea and their pop, it's about RUSSIA.
If the referendum was so cast-iron, Russia could simply have taken things to the UN, offered to pull their troops out and make another referendum under UN supervision.
That would have given them a legal lever. If the US had vetoed it, the blame would have been solely on them.
Without that international legal backing, though, the situation was unresolved. Also, if the UN had accepted a UN-supervised referendum, and that had worked out for Russia, if Ukraine had wanted to change anything THEY would have been the aggressor. I also suppose that they would have felt left standing in the rain by the West then.
Russia didn't do that, though, for whatever reasons.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 14, 2023 02:43 PM |
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted April 15, 2023 09:31 PM |
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@Ghost
It's mostly a formality. As it was never ratified before. And you would die anyway, if you said a bad word about regime.
It's similar to "reform" of prison system. Where they de facto introduced torture officially. (As they specified what is and what isn't and where.) That happened two years ago.
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