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NotBlizzardboy
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posted April 20, 2023 04:50 AM |
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@DD
Not counting Russia, Ukraine is considered the most corrupt country in Europe. Also, Russians within the country have subhuman status.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 20, 2023 08:47 AM |
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NotBlizzardboy said:
@JJ
Even the chief of NATO is saying that he expects Ukraine to join.
I'm not saying it will happen while they're in the middle of pitched battle with Putinstan but it will still likely happen. Crimea isn't a hot zone unless they're actually fighting.
In 2008 NATO had the loining of Ukraine on the table, but the member states DECLINED. To be precise, GERMANY (and one other) vetoed it THEN.
That was in 2008.
In 2014 the real trouble stated. Ukraine joining NATO was NOT a factor, and since then, I repeat, Ukraine CAN'T join as long as Ikraine is in a war. Otherwise this would make NATO immediately a direct party in that war which is something enough NATO members obviously don't want - and again, it's not possible.
That Stoltenberg claims Ukraine will become a NATO member in the future is no contradiction. He also says, it might take a long time, but eventually they will.
That's obviously a political statement - no one knows what will happen far in the future, but the reality is, Ukraine ISN'T a NATO member WASN'T one to become after 2008's decline and WON'T as long as they are at war with Russia.
Lastly, as long a Crimea is CONTESTED - and both Ukraine and Russia claim it - Ukraine becoming a NATO member will MAKE Chrimea a hot zone. Obviously.
All that just says - and the fact that this war lasts 14 months now makes it very clear - that peace between Russia and Ukraine will become a very complex undertaking and NATO will want guarantees in some way or other that a truce won't just be a means to continue the war later.
As I have repeatedly said, Putin should have bitten the bullet and stopped this 6 weeks in, after it was clear that Russia had completely failed to reach the goals of their special operations. THEN they could still have come out of it in a strong position.
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Salamandre
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posted April 20, 2023 09:06 AM |
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He did, the west said no.
LINK
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angelito
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posted April 20, 2023 10:24 AM |
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Salamandre said:
He did, the west said no.
LINK
So all I see / read was the opinion of a single "Stop the war"-journalist who quotes some "phrases" of politicicans who said positive things about negociations (why should they say negative things at all at that point?) and their status at that point.
This counts as a proof that Putin has good will and the West plays the bad part now?
Come on....
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Salamandre
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posted April 20, 2023 11:10 AM |
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An opinion? he quotes Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu who stated “We see that the parties are close to an agreement.” The meeting was in Istanbul.
Then Boris Jonhson came, and Zelensky backed down. Looks like you don't know or don"t want to click on relevant sources.
According Ukrainska Pravda sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning, brought two simple messages.
The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with.
And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.
Johnson’s position was that the collective West, which back in February had suggested Zelenskyy should surrender and flee, now felt that Putin was not really as powerful as they had previously imagined, and that here was a chance to "press him."
Three days after Johnson left for Britain, Putin went public and said talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".
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JollyJoker
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posted April 20, 2023 01:35 PM |
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Salamandre said:
He did, the west said no.
LINK
Is that so?
In any case it is nonsensical to pick one detail of the endless back and forth of non-negotiations and claim it's all the West's fault.
Since the war is STILL ongoing, and since
a) Ukraine and NATO had been a dead end since the 2008 decline of membership and
b) Russia DEFINITELY could have halted things if the only thing they wanted was indeed a neutral Ukraine
it's clear that Russian goals with regard to Ukraine aren't focussed on "avoiding NATO membership" (especially since there is now another NATO member directly bordering with a 1200 km long border.
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angelito
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posted April 20, 2023 03:34 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:34, 20 Apr 2023.
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Salamandre said:
An opinion? he quotes Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu who stated “We see that the parties are close to an agreement.” The meeting was in Istanbul...
That's why I said "phrases from politicians". He had no reason to talk negative, or he was disillusioned similar to Thomas Tuchel (coach of Bayern Munich) last week after they lost 0-3 vs Manchester City in first game of quarterfinal of Champions-League, when he said after the game: "I felt in love with my team!" 
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Ghost
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posted April 20, 2023 04:58 PM |
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Ukraine go to NATO member, because Russia is a very powerless  Ukraine needs to succeed. Now we know Russian propaganda told that Russian force becomes 80% perfect in 2030, and USA believed in propaganda, and then Ukraine has been able to beat the Russian 70% perfect, if you remember. Yes fast 70%, but reality never done. Russia used special troops were food, if Russia wants special troops back, it needs 10 years. By random, now USA and NATO get a peace, and the last RED POWER is from China. You know Taiwan, what you think USA and NATO asks Taiwan becomes NATO member, it's the same matter in Ukraine. But if China loses all, then USA can attack against us, when power balance is a propaganda by East. I don't think so, only mad attacked against freewilling Ukraine, I know well.. Now you got an answer..
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Salamandre
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posted April 20, 2023 08:05 PM |
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angelito said:
He had no reason to talk negative
Thats not the point. JJ said "Putin should have negotiated", he attempted to. For some reasons, which Turkish ministers explained, it didn't work. The fact is, US fuels this war as they need it to weaken Russia. We, as faithful puppets, follow because we can't see why not. But what is mind blowing to me, is Germany's attitude, like sending tanks and stuff. You guys didn't kill enough of them before?
If there is one country that should strive for peace as only option - no matter the circumstances, thats Germany, but no. Putin lost his minds, but so did we.
@ Ghost, would you stop trash talk interludes, it doesn't make any sense.
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Ghost
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posted April 20, 2023 08:36 PM |
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Salamandre said:
@ Ghost, would you stop trash talk interludes, it doesn't make any sense.
I don't talked by the God, if you meant. Then if you don't understand, so best ask me. I used to different people, who can understand and another needed explanation, other can't get it never. But you are good, when I know some pretended understand, and it got talking continuation, I also used to it.. Only I can't change itself..
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JollyJoker
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posted April 20, 2023 08:41 PM |
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Salamandre said:
angelito said:
He had no reason to talk negative
Thats not the point. JJ said "Putin should have negotiated", he attempted to.
I didn't say that. I said, Putin should have STOPPED this. He didn't STOP it. He wouldn't take what was on offer, when the negotiations started and overbid his hand. And after that he has been called.
Quote:
The fact is, US fuels this war as they need it to weaken Russia.
That's just nonsense. RUSSIA started the war. RUSSIA is continuing it. UKRAINE ist just doing everything not to lose this war obviously not many people wanted.
You think Ukraine has no right to defend their country or what? Appeasement doesn't work, THAT'S what Germans know well.
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NotBlizzardboy
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posted April 22, 2023 07:42 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Appeasement doesn't work, THAT'S what Germans know well.
Unrelated to current events.
It would work if Ukraine had NATO membership at some point. Cede Crimea and some territory in the far east such as the Donbass (territory that, demographically, is mostly Russian anyway) and have peace. Then get Ukraine in NATO as quickly as possible. No more future invasions.
But Ukraine won't do this because they want everything, including Crimea, and they have an indefinite volume of supplies coming their way from the West.
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angelito
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posted April 25, 2023 04:56 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:57, 25 Apr 2023.
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Salamandre said:
...But what is mind blowing to me, is Germany's attitude, like sending tanks and stuff. You guys didn't kill enough of them before?
If there is one country that should strive for peace as only option - no matter the circumstances, thats Germany, but no. Putin lost his minds, but so did we.
Interesting statement.
So you say, every nation who was involved in a war or started one or whatever, shouldn't defend another nation when it is attacked?
I guess that would be a really long list of countries when looking back in history...
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NotBlizzardboy
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posted April 25, 2023 11:56 PM |
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In 2024 there is a strong possibility that the walking corpse will be voted out and the Orange Sorbet Mussolini will be back in, and that means the tap for free stuff to ultra-corrupt Ukraine is going to be turned off.
So either W. Europe is going to supply this war on their own (good luck with that lol) or Ukraine will need to come up with something as far as a settlement goes.
Or this war is going to drag on for several years.
But once peace is settled, Ukraine can immediately apply for NATO membership. There is no longer a slippery slope once Ukraine is in NATO. Russian expansion will be over. Problem solved. Stability is back.
And the fact that the war is with Russia does matter by the way, a lot. Because historically when USA is in a war, it only takes a few thousand deaths for a strong anti-war movement to develop. That isn’t how Russia works at all. Both the culture and the politics are completely different. It easily has the ability to win in Ukraine through attrition. How many Russians have died so far? How much do you think Putin or the oligarchs care? Where is the resistance to Putin? Pretty much nothing. You can protest, and then you can enjoy your prison cell.
Ukraine needs to reach a settlement.
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Salamandre
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posted April 26, 2023 04:37 AM |
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It only depends of what the stakes are. I don't remember an anti-war resentment after the Pearl Harbor attack, with 3000 killed in a single day.
So far, Russians believe they defend their survival, against a satanic alliance whose goal is to wipe them all - that's how they see it anyway. Beside, the casualties, on their side, are 10 times lesser than what Ukraine tries hard to make us believe, there are enough serious sources out there to put that into perspective.
The diagnostic is willingly wrong in the mainstream. Russia does not want to expand, but secure its borders from a sphere of influence perspective. You don't send a such small force to take out a well trained army, it was a putsch tentative. It didn't work, they went for negotiating.
And then the US grasped the opportunity to weaken Russia as a whole and fuel a massive scale war, doubled by a senseless propaganda destined to dehumanize the adversary - Putin is crazy and a psychopath, he has 5 cancers and flat feet, next door Russian is a propaganda driven zombie, they are all rapists, assassins, war criminals and Hitler grandsons. Our puppet politicians and corrupted medias followed as well, like when you try to please the big bully in the classroom.
I am NOT saying this is our fault, but responsibilities are definitely shared. When you know history and how political coups in that area multiplied over years - from both sides, you know what's at play.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 26, 2023 07:17 AM |
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NotBlizzardboy
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posted April 26, 2023 02:20 PM |
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@Salamandre:
I have no idea where you're getting this from but it's pretty out to lunch. The war in Ukraine has not at all been beneficial for the US, unless you think depleting military stocks and inflation are a good thing. Are you reading RT news?
I guess the only thing in there that is probably true is that Putin sees himself as the victim.
Anyway, imo, Ukraine joining NATO (with some necessary concessions to Russia) is what eventually solves this problem. I don't think a long-term conflict with Russia is going to go well, simply because Russia doesn't give up the way that a country like the US would. And those Western sanctions won't strip Russia of the essentials, so it is capable of fighting for years.
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Ghost
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posted April 26, 2023 02:39 PM |
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FINNISH SAULI NIINISTO's opinion first peace, and then Ukraine can join NATO.. It means unanimous vote can't realized also Orban said "What!?" If nice the end of Russia..
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Salamandre
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posted April 26, 2023 03:22 PM |
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NotBlizzardboy said:
The war in Ukraine has not at all been beneficial for the US,
So much ignorance of what's happening is staggering. In 2022 US companies provided 50% of Europe's liquefied natural gas supplies, along with 12 percent of its oil. LINK
As I said, you guys have no idea of what's going, you just see it from the simplistic perspective of bad guy, good guy. You never ask your self why blow up Nord Stream?
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NotBlizzardboy
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posted April 26, 2023 03:37 PM |
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Okay? So a vacuum in the usual energy supply means US natural gas makes big profits in Europe.
So how does that translate to Russia invading Ukraine? I don't get it. Seriously, I want to understand you. Teach me.
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