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| Thread: The Middle East Violence... Israel vs Palestine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted October 11, 2002 02:21 AM |
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The Middle East Violence... Israel vs Palestine
Hello everyone.
My main concern now moves to the Middle East around Israel, Gaza and Palestine.
Since September 2000 extreme violence has erupted in this area. Since then the violence and the killings on both sides never ended. Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat did nothing to stop their countries from killing each other, instead, they made their people even more infuriated against each other. In the two years that this has happened, thousands of Palestinian civilians and scores of Israeli settlers have been killed in this tit-for-tat battle, many of the victims being little children. Despite the US and the UN trying desperately to urge both sides to end the violence and start a diplomacy between the two sides, both leaders scoffed at the offer and blamed each other for starting the violence. 
Upon hearing this news almost every day that either Israeli soldiers killed Palestinians or Palestinian millitants killing Israelis, I'm afraid this tit-for-tat violence will never end.
I wonder, from the lot of you, what is your view and opinion on this continuous Middle East Violence? Respond now. 
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bjorn190
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Jebus maker
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posted October 11, 2002 02:26 AM |
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted October 11, 2002 03:01 AM |
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I think it will go on forever.
What makes me mad is when someone from over there says the UN should get involved. What is the UN there for? to act as the world's police? I don't think so. It was set up to protect against countries that go crazy like in WWII Germany.
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 11, 2002 03:25 AM |
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Both sides are to blame really and then you have the outside countries fanning the flames of war there.
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They want the land of Israel.
Not suprising seeing as how it was theirs to begin with!
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I think itīs the palestinians fault.
It takes two to tango!
Put simply there are killers on both sides simply interested in what appears to be the the easy solution, namely either bombers or the millitary solution of sending in tanks and occupying the palestinian's land.
You can say that the Palestinians are purely to blame, but they get funding to do what they do, they have reasons for their hatred. Their terror organisations could not recruit and opperate but for the foreign funding and the hatred that israel has brought about amongst their population of places like the west bank.
Also neither side can control the extremist side of their country namely the bombers or the settlers and warmongers amongst the israeli's.
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Despite the US and the UN trying desperately to urge both sides to end the violence and start a diplomacy between the two sides, both leaders scoffed at the offer and blamed each other for starting the violence.
Neither the UN or US (or the world for that matter) has exerted as much pressure as they could if they wanted to. America heavily funds and therefore has some serious influence over Israel, and many of the arab/islamic nations of that area fund Arafat. Of course if they really wanted to both sides could bring the 2 to negotiations, but this would prove immensley unpopular with their people. Just ticking them off a bit and sending an envoy to israel via half the nations of the middle east (which suprisingly gave Israel just enough time to pull some troops out without looking like they were being ordered around by the USA) is not exactly going to do anything! The same for the other nations. Arafat's PLO would be unable to fight anyone without external support, but no backer will withdraw support to stop him!
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It was set up to protect against countries that go crazy like in WWII Germany.
the whole point surely is that the UN is supposed to stop the nations of the world reaching the stage of germany? Surely then they should intervene before the crisis reaches a point of complete no-return?
So no the violence will never end whilst BOTH sides allow the extremists to fight for them rather than seek peace and whilst the outside world takes no great interest other than to complain a bit.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 11, 2002 03:32 AM |
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I think Bjorn is right, you might have already read my arguments with PH and others about this subject and I kinda said most of what I had to say about it (and I don't think I will ever be able to make anyone change his/her opinion on this subject) so I'll just add one more thing and comment on other people's opinions as new ones arise:
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...many of the victims being little children.
I don't know which sides you are refering to. If it's the children in Israel then you are right, but many people keep seeing palestinian children shot by soldiers and this is one of the biggest half-truths the media ever invented. The thing is that those children are not innocents who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, they are little warriors trained by the terrorist orgainisations. Those kids are fighting against the soldiers and are very well armed (machine guns, home made bombs etc.). The soldiers only shoot those kids when the kids are shooting at them.
I call that self defence.
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IYY
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Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 11, 2002 03:53 AM |
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Oh... lookie, PH got here a few minutes before me 
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Not suprising seeing as how it was theirs to begin with!
Not exactly... It was not their land for a very long time, almost as long as it was the land of the Jews. And you have to understand that they -do- have a part of it already, in fact Jerusalem is divided into several equal parts for the Christians, Jews and Muslims.
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It takes two to tango!
Not always... It might be hard to accept it but sometimes one side is almost 100% wrong. It's rare, but it happens. I think WWII taught us that lesson very well, and that's where I have to remind that the Palestinians are Terrorists. The war in Israel is a war against Terrorism, suicide bombers and murderers that are willing to kill their own chidren to prove a point. I can't see why people seem to believe the US when it happens to them, but ignore it when it's in Israel. I am sure that if the Israel's government was like the US, all of the arabic countries would have been nothing but a radiated desert by now.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 11, 2002 04:25 AM |
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Yes but they have lived there for hundreds of years. To critcise them for wanting to rule their own land and objecting to someone else doing so is unfair to my mind as unfair as it would be to rule out Israel. Does it matter if they did not rule the land? They have been there centuries and I'd say that gives them considerable rights to say what happens to it. Yes they have their land right now, but if Israel occupies it every few months how much do they really "own" that land if their ownership is reliant on another country's grace?
And on the terrorist issue I couldn't agree more, but It's been said before and it will be said again. there are reasons for this hatred. They don't just blow themselves up for the fun of it! They have their reasons for hating Israel, now whether you happen to believe these reasons valid or not is another matter, but you could hardly claim that they are completely without provocation or reason when these people. Would you not be annoyed to find your country being partitioned and part of it handed out to other people when you expected it to be given to your rule? Would it not irritate you that settlers are occupying areas promised to your people? Would it not annoy you if you had lived a previously good life, not supporting terror and then your son was killed in a bombing raid by the israeli air force? I'm not saying these should justify murdering civilians as it has been used to, but I think one of the most dangerous situations to be in is where one side thinks the other is solely responsible for ALL the problems in the area.
I'm not saying Israel is completely to fault, but terrorism cannot come about against a country with nothing to be fought against. If there's one thing Northern Ireland has taught me it is that down the years Britain has not been either fair or exactly innocent in dealing with the catholic population there. If Israel carries on just blasting the hell out of the west bank every couple of months, and never looks to the causes of the attacks they will never solve their problems.
The current israeli actions are defences perhaps, but it has yet to sink in that they are not stopping the attacks, and a large reason for this is that they (and the world for that matter) are not addressing the reasons for the attacks. You don't stop violence with more and continous violence, you stop it by asking why the violence exists and if part of that reason is you then you have to look to how to change that. We learnt that about Ireland and are still trying to get peace there, it's just a shame so many nations don't use the same attitude.
And no I did not entirely agree with the way the Americans and British carried out their actions over in afghanistan. And also it's not a case of not believing you, we know Israel is under attack, I just don't tend to believe they are the innocent done nothing wrong government they claim themselves to be.
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DonGio
Promising
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of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted October 11, 2002 02:02 PM |
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OK, IYY, you are from Israel, right? Wouldn't that make you somewhat, oh, I don't know, biased on this issue?
Yes, what brave self defense it is to slay these kid soldiers with tanks and war choppers. And they're "well armed" with home-made bombs. Please take a look at your own words.
It is true that Palestine was not a sovereign state in 1948, but the nomadic palestinians had been living in that area for two millenniums. And just because they hadn't conformed to the conventions of the "civilized" world, the UN with England behind the wheel could "donate" this unclaimed territory to the jews as an apology for their apathy during the holocaust (which the jews were entitled to, without a doubt, but not, I think, by wronging another people in the process)
There are even an increasing number of israelis and jews who speak out on the palestinians behalf. That should tell you something about who the offended party here is. I'm not saying I condone suicide bombing or any act of violence for that matter, but I definitely don't condone of the Israeli government using so-called prohibitive execution of palestinians who don't even get a trial(assasination, that's called in the rest of the world), they're not even charged with anything, or when the Israeli government launch tank and chopper attacks on palestinian villages/cities.
The reason I think this is just as bad is because the suicide bombers are individuals or members of separate factions, while the israeli attacks are made by the government, it is approved of by an entire people. That sickens me.
Anyway, Ace, I think this issue is way to inflamed to bring up here on a HC forum. I already regret replying here, and can't think of anything good that will come out of this thing. So my suggestion is, delete this thread.
Debate well
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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bjorn190
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Jebus maker
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posted October 11, 2002 02:12 PM |
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Shadow_RD
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 11, 2002 02:22 PM |
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Israel vs. Palestine. Who Cares.
Northern Ireland. Who Cares.
I used to care, but I realised it is a waste of time. They are going to kill each other ad nauseum no matter what anybody else thinks or does. Old habits die hard.
Who really cares about pathetic struggles over useless religions and lands. In 1000 years they will all be dead anyway. Let's just get on with our own lives and leave the idiotic people to themselves.
RD.
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bjorn190
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posted October 11, 2002 02:25 PM |
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 11, 2002 02:28 PM |
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If you want to win, PLAY FAIR.
yea... stones vs tanks. Very fair isn't it?
I am not a supporter of arabs. Actually, I may even call myself a racist, becuz I do not like the arabs as a nation.
But, pls do not talk about justice and fairness when it comes to palestine vs Israel.
I do not appreciate palestine's suicide bombers more than you do. But, what would you do if your country was under invasion, and you have nothing but stones to fight the enemy's tanks?
If US want to stop the terrorism, she must stop abusing the ppl of other nations.
I do know that there can be no excuse for using terrorism. But, there is no excuse, either for abusing ppl; for invading their lands, and to expect them remain silent.
Palestine is to blame???? BS
If you are looking for someone to blame, blame Hitler, and the big bosses who placed the Jews into the middle of the arabs after WWII.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 11, 2002 02:29 PM |
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Don Gio - IYY was from Israel, I don't think he lives there anymore. But either way if people refrain from letting their anger rule their posts as has been seen in say either the OBL or Iraq threads then I don't think much harm is done by discussing these things.
Bjorn - What is terrorism? Killing innocents deliberately or without care of them when you take action? Well sometimes it APPEARS (note I did not say it is deffinately the case) that Israel cares not one iota for all the innocent palestinians killed in their raids. Is state sponsored or allowed terror better than other types? And no I do not think either side is playing fairly and until one or both do there cannot be peace
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bjorn190
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posted October 11, 2002 02:58 PM |
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 11, 2002 03:20 PM |
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Their civilization has not been capable of building tanks, because its not very productive.
They donīt treat women as equals.. they arenīt very democratic.. they think might is right. There is alot of corruption.
Democracy is the best way to build an effective defence and offence, and thatīs why the democratic nations have such influence on others.
C'mon dude. This ain't civIII. This is real life.
They are no productive, because they are being sucked by the capital.
Which country treats women as equal to men?
Do you think Israel is superrior to arabs becuz they have democracy?
I would say they are superrior becuz they have money.
Money is power, not democracy.
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bjorn190
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posted October 11, 2002 03:34 PM |
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privatehudson
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posted October 11, 2002 03:39 PM |
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Israel gets more funding and donations from america than some American states for one. Look at their arms - who did they buy them off? Centurion tanks - well Britain, F16's - America, M16 assault rifles - America, M60 tanks - America, M113 H/T's - America, Cobra Gunships - America.
Seeing a pattern here?
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 11, 2002 03:46 PM |
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could not have said it better than PH.
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 11, 2002 03:53 PM |
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There is plenty of land there to "go around" just divide it and be done with it. Any of u guys know the population denisty in those area's (it is REALLY low).
Guess that solution is too simple huh?@
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bjorn190
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posted October 11, 2002 03:58 PM |
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