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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 04, 2010 04:32 AM |
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Believing in privacy rights... if convenient
In the US there's this retarded battle going on over a huge mosque planning to be built in the immediate vicinity of ground zero (where the World Trade Towers were).
The summary of the situation is that there's this dude that's heading the construction of a huge mosque next to ground zero. Some people are mad about it because the hijackers were Muslim, thus they believe having Muslims build a mosque near ground zero would be an insult to the people killed in the attack and to some, a victory to Al Qaeda. There's also people saying they shouldn't be allowed to build it because it would cause pain to some of the loved ones of the people that died. Furthermore, the guy heading the building of the mosque said a month after the attack that US policy was an accomplice in what happened on 9/11 due to its policy, and thus that he has grounds for suspicion. Note that this same person has been used by the government on multiple occasions to work as a negotiator and peacemaker in the Muslim world, and has a perfectly clean record concerning any illegal activity.
So what several powerful figures in politics are trying to do is push through an investigation on the construction of this mosque and figure out about who the financers are and where the money is coming from, based solely on what this guy's comments were after 9/11 (even though an enormous # of people agree with those comments). If it goes through, this means the government could also do an investigation on me, along with practically anybody based on any degree of suspicion, however comically obscure.
The frustrating irony of this is that these same people bawl and moan about protecting individual rights, yet they selectively go against their own beliefs according to their sentimental whims. This entire subject is based on what the government should and shouldn't investigate. If you think this investigation would be a good move, go ahead and believe that and I can at least give you minimal respect for your forwardness, but please don't claim to care about privacy rights at the same time. Your stance is textbook witch-hunt statism and you're an enemy to the individual human.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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mvassilev
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posted August 04, 2010 05:29 AM |
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Neither the left nor the right supports property rights, not that this is anything new.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 07:33 AM |
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Building a mosque there is about the most idiotic thing they could possibly do.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 07:45 AM |
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Saying something like that is a pretty idiotic thing as well, because it implies that the religion as a whole and their followers in general are to blame - even the American muslims.
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 07:53 AM |
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No, what I said was common sense. What you said is typical intellectualism and is a perfect example of why I'm against intellectualism. It's not the use of intelligence, it's the use intelligence at the expense of common sense. It's over-analyzing things that shouldn't even require any thought.
The reasons for my view shouldn't even need explaining, which I why I didn't explain it. Your response is exactly the response I expected.
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mvassilev
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posted August 04, 2010 07:57 AM |
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Binabik, most of the time what you write is good, but sometimes you run on this ridiculous populist anti-intellectual tangent.
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 08:14 AM |
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Yep, I'm definitely anti-intellectual. I take that as a compliment, thank you. Although it's unlikely that I use the term the same way you do.
And it's not a tangent. It's at the very core of my belief system. And it's at the very core of what's wrong with this country.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 08:25 AM |
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Quote:
No, what I said was common sense. What you said is typical intellectualism and is a perfect example of why I'm against intellectualism. It's not the use of intelligence, it's the use intelligence at the expense of common sense. It's over-analyzing things that shouldn't even require any thought.
The reasons for my view shouldn't even need explaining, which I why I didn't explain it. Your response is exactly the response I expected.
That's even worse a comment, because now you take on the position of the slightly superior liberal that is "concerned" about how a certain behaviour will be met by the "general (stupid) public".
Because you say, "*I* wouldn't dream of blaming islam in general, but think of how the general public (which has simpler views and is easily influenced) will react on that. And because it WILL react that way, it's stupid."
But ACTUALLY it is just a small minority - e VERY small minority - who really IS blaming the religion as a whole and having a problem, while the rest is exactly doing what YOU do: "Ooooh, that's... not exactly tactful isn't it?"
I mean, come on. Those who openly protest and saay, how dare they?, thosse have at least a clear opinion and are not ashamed to put them forth. But a spongy, "ah, that's not the most prudent thing to do", implying everything and nothing....
Man, Binabik, I thought you had a bit more backbone than that.
And let me add, that being anti-intellectual doesn't automatically mean you have sommon sense. One might simply be ignorant
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 08:43 AM |
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You're still intellectualizing. And your conclusions are also totally wrong.
Interesting how Mvass accuses me of being a populist and you accuse me elitism.
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mvassilev
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posted August 04, 2010 08:48 AM |
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I see JJ's point. Binabik, you're being both a populist and an elitist. Now, there is nothing wrong with being an elitist (as long as you do it properly), but populism is bad.
What's wrong with this country is a lack of rational thought - and it's people like you who are apologists for it.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 09:12 AM |
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As far as I'm concerned he accused you of being on a populisst tangent, which isn't quite the same as being populist - rather, he said the same thing than me: it sounds like YOU basically don't care, but assume others will, due to the general mood or whatever.
That's what *I* call the "sympathetic and tolerant, yet concerned parents" attitude, and hardly elitist: *You know, Cathy, if it was only Mummy and Daddy, you could of course wear this outfit - but think about the impression others may get (who are not so goddam tolerant as us liberal suburb stiffs)."
In the end they ARE stiffs, because what they would actually LIKE to say is: "Cathy, you won't set a foot outside of this house, that outfit is absolutely outrageous." But they can't stand the idea of being as stiff as they actually are, so they blame "others" who are suppossedly not so tolerant, having only the best in mind, wanting to spare Cathy trouble, blablabla.
There is of course a worse attitude, the "concerned parents" attitude, who are vocally expressing their concern at every opportunity about how this is unhealthy for their children and that un-American to learn and that teacher dangerous take part in activities to ban this and that, all for the well-being of their little ones.
Anyway, I think you belong into the first cathegory.
You can of course explain, WHY you feel that it's an idiotic thing to do and prove me wrong - but I expect you won't, claiming some excuse.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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angelito
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posted August 04, 2010 09:17 AM |
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Would it also be an idiotic thing to educate a muslim for a pilot in a flight training school near New York?
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 09:43 AM |
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JJ, you're reading a hell of a lot into what I said. I have no idea where you get those ideas, but they are just plain wrong.
@Angelito, no it wouldn't be idiotic. It doesn't carry the same kind of symbolism. Nor would building a mosque somewhere else be idiotic for the same reason, it doesn't carry the same type of symbolism.
This all reminds me of the old Star Trek shows. Where Kirk says something like "Dammit Spock, the hell with your logic! Where's your human side?"
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 10:16 AM |
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Symbolism?
That's what I mean.
It means, you see a symbolic meaning in building a mossque there.
The only question is, are you hiding behind others, like the concerned SYMPATHETIC parents (OTHERS may see a symbolism, creating tensions), or are you expressing your opinion (bad symbolism thaat I don't like).
Naturally the question is, WHAT does building a mosque there would symbolize in your opinion (or in your opinion in the opinion of others which is actually only an excuse, imo)?
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 10:42 AM |
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JJ, to make it clear, it's my own view. And it's the view of a hell of a lot of other people too. It's just a slap in the face and an insult. It has no caring for the wounds that are FAR from being healed. You (generic you) can intellectualize all you want. You can discuss sociology or psychology or international relations or religious tolerance all you want. But dammit Spock! To hell with your logic. Where's your human side? What we are seeing are normal human reactions. In another couple of generations maybe things will be different, but for now it's still fresh.
Let me ask a question. Why is a swastika illegal in Germany? It's just a symbol after all.
See, when I first heard about that I just looked at it for a second and kind of shrugged my shoulders and thought, "yea it makes sense". And I didn't think anything more of it. I didn't need to think hard about it or intellectualize it. It just made sense to me and there was nothing more to think about. I still don't know for sure the real reason, but it doesn't really matter, it just somehow makes sense.
Maybe the issue of the mosque is all about respect. Having some freaking respect. Let the wounds heal in their own way and their own time.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 11:06 AM |
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I see that you are not saying, WHAT building a mosque symbolizes there for you.
And let me tell you one thing, Binabik. Comparing a mosque with the svastika is WAY WAY WAY off. A mosque is a church of one of the world religions. The black svastika on white ground in a red square was the symbol of a racist, anti-semitic (and so on) murder gang.
You don't want to make that comparison, do you?
So. Speak freely. What exactly DOES it symbolize, then?
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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Binabik
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posted August 04, 2010 11:14 AM |
- penalty applied by angelito on 06 Aug 2010. |
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What the hell kind of question is that? Are you really that fking stupid? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing again. Now fk off!
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kookastar
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posted August 04, 2010 11:25 AM |
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lol
bini!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no one even has the time to do a *** these days, they've gone the same way as capitalisation lol 
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uhuh
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 11:48 AM |
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Quote:
What the hell kind of question is that?
It seems to be the kind of question you either can't or don't WANT to answer.
Which means, you have exactly NOTHING to say.
Quote:
Are you really that fking stupid? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing again. Now fk off!
I didn't even START arguing.
You remind me about a person looking at one of these Rorschach-inkies, and you say, "Now, that's indecent." "Huh, what is?" "Well, the picture." "The picture? Well, what do you see?" "What kin d of question is that? Are you too blind or something?"
The bottom line is, you have nothing to say, but at least you say it very loud. And resorting to insults doesn't make it any better.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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xerox
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posted August 04, 2010 12:21 PM |
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What is wrong with building a mosque there? I think it is a great symbolic thing in an extremly religious country like the US and shows forgiveness et cetera.
It would be a great opportunity to learn people visiting there about islam because most people around there probably have very stereotypical views on islam and are like "Nooooo muslisms are evuuul they are destroying the world through breeeeeeding omg they will put bombs on their babies and drop them from planes with snakes"
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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