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Fauch
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posted May 09, 2011 02:40 AM |
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but the US has killed many, many, MANY more civilian people than Usama did with the few thousand people in 9/11
but Osama is just one man. the US represents lots of people.
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gnomes2169
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posted May 09, 2011 04:57 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
but the US has killed many, many, MANY more civilian people than Usama did with the few thousand people in 9/11
but Osama is just one man. the US represents lots of people, a few hundred years of more existence and a hell of allot more money and technologies.
Missing bits added. 
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Salamandre
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posted May 09, 2011 07:16 AM |
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Elodin, thanks for your infinite quote which confirms that Bin Laden was not tied in religious goals with the radical salafists, as you previously incorrectly stated.
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Elodin
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posted May 09, 2011 08:04 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 08:06, 09 May 2011.
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Quote:
Elodin, thanks for your infinite quote which confirms that Bin Laden was not tied in religious goals with the radical salafists, as you previously incorrectly stated.
If you actually read what I quoted it is strange you reached that conclusion as the article states exactly the opposite of what you concluded. I'll requote the last few paragraphs and highlight some things.
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Al-Qaeda has adopted a broader interpretation of the religious command concerning the killing of infidels. It is considered an absolute command that does not depend on political circumstances, the need or will to take revenge, or a wish to liberate Muslim lands from infidel rule. Saif al-Din al-Ansari, in an article in al-Qaeda's official periodical, presented the new, comprehensive concept of total extermination of Islam's enemies based on the Quranic verse: "And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings" (Al-Imran, 142). According to al-Ansari, this is the way Allah deals with infidels, who are doomed throughout history to total extermination through various types of death, as was the fate of the people of Noah, Hod, Saleh, Lot, Midian, and Pharaoh. Al-Ansari asserted that the extermination of infidels is a permanent Islamic law and unchangeable fate for infidels that is as relevant today as it was in past generations. According to al-Ansari, "Just as the law of extermination was applied to the infidel forces among the nations in previous days and no one could escape it, so it will be applied to the infidel forces in our day and no one will escape it. Namely, similar to the fate of the Thamoud and 'Ad peoples [two pagan Arab peoples which, according to Islamic tradition, were exterminated due to their rejection of the words of the Prophet], so the American state, the Jewish state, and all other infidel countries will certainly be destroyed."
Al-Ansari further developed his concept of total extermination in a subsequent article. First, he firmly criticized the Islamic movements that raise the banner of daawa (Islamic preaching) and support the gradual spread of Islam through education, social organizations, and the economy as the preferred means to bring about the victory of Islam over other religions. He asserts that Allah has the power and might to subdue the infidels and to exterminate them by his will. However, He has not done so because of His wish to designate this task to Muslims.
Al-Ansari relies on the Quranic verse: "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace [meaning that Allah will kill the infidels], and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people" (Al-Tawba, 14). The key word in this verse is "by your hands," which indicates the great importance Allah attributes to the physical action of the infidels' extermination. This is even more substantial than the daawa in executing the command of jihad, since the daawa, as important as it might be, could not fulfill God's commandment for extermination.
Al-Ansari wrote: "Allah is capable of exterminating his enemies with no need for intermediaries or the help of anyone. His might is infinite...therefore, when He [Allah] designates the task of extermination of infidels to his believers, He does so as a hidden expression of His power...the infidels' extermination is part of Islamic law, which is operative until the Day of Judgment. Its principal element will be fulfilled only at the hands of the believers, meaning through jihad, which is also to be operative until the Day of Judgment.
As you can see, Al-Qaeda is opposed to the peaceful preaching of Islam and says Islam must conquer by the sword and exterminate everyone who won't convert.
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Salamandre
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posted May 09, 2011 08:08 AM |
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You quote Al-Ansari, not Osama. Osama did not share wahabist points of view with the radical salafists, you will not find a single piece of word of him saying Jihad is a war against the infidels. His position was clear and stated through all his speeches or interviews: retaliate against the oppressor of islamic countries.
An old saying: know your enemy to know how to fight him. Seems to me there is confusion around about who Osama was. A terrorist yes, a religious fanatical, no. It is interesting to read his testament, where he advices his 24 kids to NOT follow Jihad, and choose the right way.
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Zenofex
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posted May 09, 2011 08:29 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
but the US has killed many, many, MANY more civilian people than Usama did with the few thousand people in 9/11
but Osama is just one man. the US represents lots of people, a few hundred years of more existence and a hell of allot more money and technologies.
Missing bits added.
Erm... "a few hundred years of more existence"? Muslims are around since the 7th century, the Arabs - since a lot earlier, the countries in the Middle East, in one form or another, are much older than the US. What "more existence" exactly?
Actually only the "money and technologies" part is undeniably true, the rest is debatable to say the least.
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So, if the other side needs to retaliate but has no bombs or army, what solutions are left?
If the other side had bombs, army and powerful propaganda machine, now we could have been reading the comments of some Arabian plebeian that destroying Washington DC, New York, Chicago, etc. was an act of justice and ultimately a necessity in the war between good and evil, that revolves around killing the mass murderer George Bush and his terrorist organization. Just an example.
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Jabanoss
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posted May 09, 2011 09:34 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 10:24, 09 May 2011.
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Obama on bin Laden: The full 60 Minutes interview
An interview with Obama made by "60 Minutes", three days after he announced that American troops had killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan.
I haven't read it all or seen it but I imagine some of you will find it interesting.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2011 10:39 AM |
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The US does not kill civilians indiscriminately.
My Lai
Every country has incidents like those. Yours is not any different. People are the same in every country and there are thousands of Americans that are psychos or killers, like everywhere else. Now imagine those people given enough power and wealth. There, you have your American Osamas.
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shyranis
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posted May 09, 2011 11:40 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 12:24, 09 May 2011.
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The US does not kill civilians indiscriminately.
The nation as a whole doesn't, but idiot soldiers representing it often do.
For example, the soldiers that intentionally target unarmed Afghan civilians and pose with the corpses with ]url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/24/us-soldier-kill-team-sentence?intcmp=239]stupid grins on their faces[/url]. Until a country formally denounces an act done in its name by its service personnel, that act is still an act of that nation by its appointed representatives. (The military in this case, and a definitive waste of taxpayer dollars)
No country is free of this. My country even apologized and punished the soldiers responsible during the peacekeeping mission in Somalia in the early 90's when a group of idiots we had under our banner gleefully went on about how they loved it there because they got to shoot so many n*gg*rs. We punished them thoroughly, apologized for their behaviour and got the job done. All I see the the US govt being unrepentant about its idiot problem. (Maybe that's something across all branches though)
All militaries have at least some idiots/psychopaths in them, and all idiots among the military will intentionally make innocent people suffer blatantly without provocation.
Quote:
Erm... "a few hundred years of more existence"? Muslims are around since the 7th century, the Arabs - since a lot earlier, the countries in the Middle East, in one form or another, are much older than the US. What "more existence" exactly?
Actually only the "money and technologies" part is undeniably true, the rest is debatable to say the least.
I think he's talking about Al Qaeda. Islam as a whole is not a terrorist organization. edit: Unless you believe the unqualified trainers around the US training cops to judge people based on religion and race.
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Zenofex
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posted May 09, 2011 12:06 PM |
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I think he's talking about Al Qaeda. Islam as a whole is not a terrorist organization. edit: Unless you believe the unqualified trainers around the US training cops to judge people based on religion and race.
Al-Qaeda is not a phenomenon that can be completely seperated from the Islam and the Arabic world just like the KKK can not be completely seperated from the Christianity and the Western world. I know that the regular brainwashing propaganda that is being generously spread in the West often makes Islam = terrorism and this is no less concerning than the anti-Western and specifically anti-American propaganda in the Middle East (which is much easier to justify empirically though) but this does not make al-Qaeda something which it is not. Even if the leaders are sober-minded strategists with clear objectives, the cannon-fodder front line grunts probably believe in the "kill all infidels" idea indeed. In any case, it is nothing qualitatively new or "newer".
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2011 12:49 PM |
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The discussion here is pointless since no "nation as a whole" can do anything since it's an abstract concept.
Since no collective exists, Elodin writing about "nation as a whole being this and that" is pointless as every person is unique within the nation.
This goes both ways as people blaming the US blame... well, what, actually? the people? Then they are doing it wrong because the collective responsibility is BS. And blaming abstract concepts is as pointless as ever.
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Salamandre
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posted May 09, 2011 12:59 PM |
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Foreign politics are not an abstract concept, they are real, triggered by a specific government, which is financially supported by tax payers.
Any action of a government is meant to reflect the public opinion and wishes. There was one exception: the atomic bomb over japanese civilians. The public was informed after the fact, therefore can't be held as responsible.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2011 01:01 PM |
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Foreign politics are not an abstract concept, they are real, triggered by a specific government, which is financially supported by tax payers.
Any action of a government is meant to reflect the public opinion and wishes. There was one exception: the atomic bomb over japanese civilians. The public was informed after the fact, therefore can't be held as responsible.
That's just wishful thinking. In Poland 80% people were against Polish forces being deployed to Iraq and they were deployed anyway. Elective oligarchy (or "Democracy") isn't exactly about doing what the majority wants.
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Salamandre
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posted May 09, 2011 01:05 PM |
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You are right, people can't go always against political decisions, but their vote is decisive at next elections. Go against the people = not reelected and a lesson to learn for the next one.
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baklava
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posted May 09, 2011 01:11 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:14, 09 May 2011.
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The government usually cannot be regarded as responsible for outbursts such as the My Lai massacre.
It is, however, its duty to prevent those incidents from happening by, at the very least, punishing the ones who were responsible. By covering up such incidents and sheltering war criminals, the government essentially becomes guilty of the crime itself, much like the Vatican sheltering child molesting priests.
The My Lai massacre caused a total of one (1) man, William Calley, to end up in a military prison for a total of four (4) months, due to Nixon's intervention. And that was it.
But Calley said he's very very sorry. Two years ago. For the first time.
So I guess it's all nice and Christian then, isn't it Elodin?
Oh and two years after the massacre, the My Lai survivors' camp was bombed by South Vietnamese artillery and aerial bombardment. The destruction was officially attributed to "Viet Cong terrorists".
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2011 01:14 PM |
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Elective oligarchy is all about manipulation. So they are losing a few % of approval by doing something strictly against people's will, yeah, but a month later the leading party lowers the taxes or does something to increase its popularity and voila, they still have it their way.
In Poland the leading party won the last election with around 50% approval. They lost around 20% since then, due to a streak of unpopular decisions, but the 30% is still enough for them to win the next election, because the runner-up has 20% ever since and is deemed as party of old, religious, brainwashed and stupid people by youth propaganda. Other fractions consist of discredited post-communist party that doesn't exceed 10% (hard electorate) which had the majority in the parliament once and it was a disastrous period of crap decision making so nobody is going to vote them to power again.
Elective oligarchy is beautiful for the rulers because there's not much to choose from. It ends up with electing the lesser evil instead of going for who you would want to see.
In such situation, can Poles be blamed as nation if the Polish soldiers commit any atrocity in Iraq? With 80% against Polish presence on Iraqi lands?
This is a good example on how the whole "national" responsibility is pointless imho.
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Elodin
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posted May 09, 2011 03:52 PM |
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You quote Al-Ansari, not Osama.
The last few paragraphs were quoting from the official Al-Qaeda magazine. Osama was head of Al-Qaeda.
Osama also complained about "infidels" being in Saudi Arabia and about the Jews being in Jerusalem because of the Muslim shrines there. Osams was very much a religious fanatic of Islamic extremism, contrary to your claims.
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If the other side had bombs, army and powerful propaganda machine, now we could have been reading the comments of some Arabian plebeian that destroying Washington DC, New York, Chicago, etc. was an act of justice and ultimately a necessity in the war between good and evil, that revolves around killing the mass murderer George Bush and his terrorist organization. Just an example.
George Bush is no mass murderer. Al-Qaeda is the mass murdering organization. The US is a good nation that has done more for the world than any other nation in history. 
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The nation as a whole doesn't, but idiot soldiers representing it often do.
No, US soldiers don't "often" target civilians. Sometimes a psycho freak may but it is false to say US soldiers do so "often."
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Al-Qaeda is not a phenomenon that can be completely seperated from the Islam and the Arabic world just like the KKK can not be completely seperated from the Christianity and the Western world.
Sorry, you are ignorant of what the KKK is. The KKK is not a Christian organization or denomination though it seems you love to claim it is since you do so a lot.
The KKK was formed by the Democrat party and is the terrorist wing of the dem party ( a left wing party.) The KKK is political, not religious in nature. The New Testament (the holy writings that define who is and is not a Christian)says anyone who hates or murders and who claims to know God is a liar.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Since no collective exists, Elodin writing about "nation as a whole being this and that" is pointless as every person is unique within the nation.
Sorry, Doom, you seem to be confused since I have not been writing about a "nation as a whole" or condemning any nation, unlike anti-Americans.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2011 04:47 PM |
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You do seem to write that Americans are this and that though. Isn't this a generalization too? I mean, generalizations can be positive too 
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Salamandre
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posted May 09, 2011 05:45 PM |
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]The last few paragraphs were quoting from the official Al-Qaeda magazine. Osama was head of Al-Qaeda.
As the pope is the head of a few pedophile priests.
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Elodin
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posted May 09, 2011 07:24 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
]The last few paragraphs were quoting from the official Al-Qaeda magazine. Osama was head of Al-Qaeda.
As the pope is the head of a few pedophile priests.
But all of Al-Qaeda are murderous Islamic extremists who deliberately target and kill innocent civilians. Osams bin Laden continued to plot the murder of innocent civilians. He was an evil mass murdering scumbag.
Osama bin Laden specialized in killing innocent civilians, whether they were civilians of moderate Muslim nations or western civilians. It gave him great joy and made him feel like a "soldier of Allah." When the end came it was discovered he had been hiding in a luxurious compound plotting the murder of civilians instead of living in a cave while "fighting the Great Satan."
When Navy Seals stormed his compound and he was face to face with a real soldier he soiled his britches and shoved his wife at the Seals in an effort to save himself.
No, Osama bin Laden was not a freedom fighter. He was a mass murdering coward.
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