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gnomes2169
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Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 04, 2011 04:05 AM |
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Quote:
certainly not human in the meaning of compassionate.
and if he really believed what he said, then he was really insane.
I guess hitler sounded just as human. but well, monsters do not look like monsters, but like normal humans.
Exactly. Human as in he had a reason that he could use, and more than likely believed in.
Obviously.
Monsters are humans twisted to the breaking point, but that are still whole enough to get others to follow them and blend in. (Like you said, Hitler)
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2011 05:52 AM |
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My point with the "speech" was not to show him more "human", but less close to the "fanatical extremist" portrait Shyranis gave. In fact, Bin Laden was intelligent man, had a good analysis about how twisted and corrupted are the democracies today, and before the 11th it would be certainly possible to dialog with him, as former CIA agent. He was clever and knew well western cultures, not ignorant and stubborn like most or the preachers (radical muslim or christians) today and with great influence upon the religious clans. CIA knew that it was better to have him on its side, but they ignored many of the alarms.
It's all about manipulation, more than fanatical views.
A detailed and better analysis of his more or less hidden goals Here
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well, that speech doesn't sound like bin laden was going to do any concession, him, the messiah, protector of the weaks, fighter of freedom, savior of america...
We all know how hypocrite is the USA by constantly opposing its veto to the totality of UN condemning resolutions concerning Israel aggressions. As long as USA continue to caution ANY action of Israel, specially the worse, there will be no possible dialog with the muslims. That would be a start.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted May 04, 2011 08:12 AM |
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I don't like the tendency of blaming one person, it wasn't Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, it was their TERRORISTS that murdered people. If those, as you refer to "monsters", didn't have followers, they'd be harmless. It just shows what humans are in terms of morality, and how easy it is to manipulate them in whatever way one wants (also see religion)
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 04, 2011 10:09 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:10, 04 May 2011.
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So would Osama's network of followers be in on it also?
If he was a CIA agent all the way (I repeat that I'm not claiming this for a fact) - very unlikely and unnecessary.
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Why would Osama adhere to a ploy to help Obama in the polls, when neocons like Bush Jr. have a much harder stance toward Iran?
That's not what I mean. Even though the probability of bin Laden's death as part of the election campaign is rather low, it could be something like "You see, my administration got rid of the world's number 1 terrorist, go vote for me" from Obama's point of view. The thing is that I don't dig the version that the US intelligence didn't know exactly where bin Laden was all the time. CIA knew that he's in Pakistan for years, knew what's his wealth and probably bank accounts since the very beginning, knew his lieutenants and the spread of the al-Qaeda network but it took them 10 years to find the alleged most wanted international criminal. It could have been just a matter of signing his death verdict.
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Osama was a Wahabist (unless all of that is fake also), so it would make sense for him to want the downfall of the Shia Iranian regime
I don't understand this. Al-Qaeda and the Iranian authorities are hardly friendly, don't seem to be sworn enemies either but what does this have to do with bin Laden's death?
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It is superficial to design a single individual as only guilty for the 11th drama.
Indeed, but as you can see some people are living in a movie and now when the bad guy is dead, they can rejoice that justice is served once again. Probably some Hollywood director is already gathering the cast for the actual "blockbuster".
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted May 04, 2011 01:20 PM |
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I'm sorry for messing with you here, but can someone answer me on this question:
What if USA never messed in the middle east?
But connect the answer with the existence of Bin Ladin. From where he came Bin Ladin may be even a freedom fighter against the US despotism. It depends on point of view.
What he did was wrong, what USA did and still doing is wrong as well.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 04, 2011 01:37 PM |
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USA never wanted to mess with middle east, nor for democracy or removing tyrants. It is the powerful Israelite lobby which manipulated everything in that direction, because the survey of Israel directly depended on how weak are its neighbors. Iraq weakened, now it's time to deal with Iran. All this supported by the tax payers.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2011 03:27 PM |
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Iran is actually one of the countries that is fighting Afghan Opium trafficking. Something that really took off once the Taliban was removed.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted May 04, 2011 04:29 PM |
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Sure Salamandre.
We got in a big economic hole.
One of the reasons is financially helping out many countries, well just like Pakistan!
What do they give us in return?
Loyalty LOL. Like they did when Ladin was hiding right in front of them & they was shocked.
Maybe so, but that would be like Hookers having sex for free!
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted May 04, 2011 04:32 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 16:58, 04 May 2011.
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Now can we all sing the song HIP HIP HOORAY!
It's about damn time to. F that guy.
Nothing worst then seeing that cocky smile on his face while he sits there with his holy views & the wars.
He deserves whatever happened to him.
Bah,its stupid farce made to promote Obama reelection.
I think that he died a long time ago.
Regardless,even if this is the real osama,this just shows how much the US failed considering the amount of time they needed to do this.
They should do the same thing to Bush,Cheney,Powel,Israel and so on..
(Sarcasm)
Aint justice so amaizing in this world(/sarcasm)
Why does not the world call those Rebel Libyans terrorists?They al lthem rebels.The usage of the word"Terrorists" and "Rebel" seems distorted.
In the end,not that I have any feelings for terrorists,its just annoying to listen to news and hear the "AWESOME" US achievement,which in reality is just considered murder.Why not arrest him? Why not send him to some sor of prison?
Pure american "Stupidism"
edit: and all of that was done on foreign soil.While I am aware of the fact that Paki soil is shaky with refugees and whatnot,I am quite not sure of the notion that they harbour terrorism?
US calls the wikileaks founder a terrorist,is Sweeden or England a terrorist state just cuz some thug,or one guy "Identified" as terrorist,is living there?
This is BS,pure BS imo.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted May 04, 2011 04:36 PM |
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Fool LOL.
What are we supposed to do?
Invade & sweep the whole big Iraqi Mountains lol.
How about if soldiers came to your land & Swept every inch of it.
Alot different then why they are out there now.
Not to mention we could make alot more enemies doing that!
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Dreaming of a Better World
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted May 04, 2011 04:46 PM |
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Why does not the world call those Rebel Libyans terrorists?They al lthem rebels.The usage of the word"Terrorists" and "Rebel" seems distorted.
They probably prefer the term "freedom fighters."
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 04, 2011 05:02 PM |
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As a reply to the title of the thread
BIG DEAL (not)
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 04, 2011 05:28 PM |
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@Zeno:
One would think that at least his higher-ups would have to be in on it. If he's actively working in conjunction with the CIA, he would be following a different agenda than Al Qaeda.
If the CIA was intentionally leaving Osama alone, why would they choose to go kill him now (or pretend to kill him)? Since the presence in Afghanistan is allegedly to sandwich in Iran for a future attack, wouldn't it be best to leave him out in the open? Obama (and Democrats in general) have a softer stance toward Iran, so if the ultimate goal is Iran, I don't see the point in trying to keep Obama in office. Besides, while I'm sure this will boost Obama's poll ratings a little bit, it's still minor compared to taxes and the budget.
Osama's agenda as a Wahabist was relevant to Iran because Wahabists hate Iran. They are more than just unfriendly with one another. To him, Iran is a heretic Shia state and needs to be removed if a true Caliphate were ever to rise up. This would be the best speculation for why Osama would be willing to cooperate with the CIA, although that itself is pretty weak since even a Wahabist would likely hates the US even more than Iran. As for Osama and the Taliban's deeper history with the CIA; Osama and the Taliban were never truly friendly with the US. The US gave weapons to them in the 1980s to troll the Soviets, but that does not mean they were friends. After the Soviets said "**** it" and left, the communication died. They were as much friends with each other as the US was "friends" with the Soviets in the 1940s. It was a tentative agreement purely because they both had a mutual enemy.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2011 06:29 PM |
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Remember that talking point about Bin Laden hiding behind his wife?
Turns out it wasnt true.
He was also unarmed, so he could have been easily captured and made to suffer in solitary confinement. Seems like the US is giving Bin Laden an easier time out than Bradley Manning.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 04, 2011 06:29 PM |
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Quote:
Osama's agenda as a Wahabist was relevant to Iran because Wahabists hate Iran. They are more than just unfriendly with one another. To him, Iran is a heretic Shia state and needs to be removed if a true Caliphate were ever to rise up. This would be the best speculation for why Osama would be willing to cooperate with the CIA, although that itself is pretty weak since even a Wahabist would likely hates the US even more than Iran.
Yes, I know that the radical Sunni like the Wahabists are not fond of the Shia government in Iran at all but that does not make them enemies (at least not unyielding ones) as long as the greater threat from the US and Israel is present. If I remember correctly, there were reports that Iran has taken a softer stance towards the al-Qaeda operatives on its territory some time ago, so they can join their fight against the occupation forces in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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One would think that at least his higher-ups would have to be in on it. If he's actively working in conjunction with the CIA, he would be following a different agenda than Al Qaeda.
If the CIA was intentionally leaving Osama alone, why would they choose to go kill him now (or pretend to kill him)? Since the presence in Afghanistan is allegedly to sandwich in Iran for a future attack, wouldn't it be best to leave him out in the open? Obama (and Democrats in general) have a softer stance toward Iran, so if the ultimate goal is Iran, I don't see the point in trying to keep Obama in office. Besides, while I'm sure this will boost Obama's poll ratings a little bit, it's still minor compared to taxes and the budget.
That depends. Maybe the Afghanistan affair is becoming too costly and is about to be abandoned. After all, bin Laden was the excuse for the invasion in Afghanistan and when he's dead, the US government can declare that there is nothing more to do in this rocky desert, that the "democratization" attempts have failed (which is rather obvious and has never been a purpose anyway) and that "the boys are coming home". After the Taliban are weakened a bit more eventually, although this seems to be quite a long-term objective. Or it could be something else, I'm not following the story closely for a few years now. All I'm saying is that bin Laden was killed much later than one would expect for a villain of his stature.
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As for Osama and the Taliban's deeper history with the CIA; Osama and the Taliban were never truly friendly with the US. The US gave weapons to them in the 1980s to troll the Soviets, but that does not mean they were friends. After the Soviets said "**** it" and left, the communication died. They were as much friends with each other as the US was "friends" with the Soviets in the 1940s. It was a tentative agreement purely because they both had a mutual enemy.
That's what I mean by "friends" actually.  There is no real friendship in the international relations but if you are supplying someone with money and weapons, you are not indifferent towards him, even if it's only in accordance with the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principle.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted May 04, 2011 06:33 PM |
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Now to wait for another mass massacre act of terror in the States.
Yeah, the special forces rock. Killing the man in front of his 12yo daughter. Epic win.
Imho this whole 'war on terror' is a massive load of bull. Let innocent americans die for their idiots' I mean, goverment greedy ambitions. If not for oil, then maybe for opium. Don't waste other countries' soldiers on your stupid 'acts of liberation'.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2011 06:45 PM |
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Also interesting, apparently Bin Laden apologized for all of the Jihad work and asked in his will for his kids not to join Al Qaeda.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 04, 2011 06:53 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 18:56, 04 May 2011.
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"...the squad, unfortunately, didn't manage to save the 12 year old girl whose face Bin Laden was biting off with his sharp, metal teeth when the raid happened. Upon hearing the sound of combat, Bin Laden immediately strapped explosives onto his wives and put on a vest made out of living babies, but our highly trained units managed to fight through his personal guard of samurai raptors and shoot him in the head. The terrorist leader's final words were, according to the witnesses, 'You'll never get me alive, infidels!', as he activated his secret base's self destruction mechanism, which made it impossible to recover his, now completely vaporized, body."
"Sir all this may be a little hard to swallow for the general public... are you certain you want this to go in the newspaper?"
"Of course I'm certain, Rogers, we can tell them we got confused and it wasn't really like that tomorrow - but right now, it's the first impression that matters."
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Mr Carney said resistance does not require a firearm.
So he, uhm... got shot in the chest for shouting obscenities at the US Special Forces?
This whole thing, as does so much else with the US government, reeks to high heaven.
Speaking of which, Elodin, does killing an unarmed man - in front of his daughter - when you're a squad of "elite", "professional" special forces qualify as murder in your book?
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you got the blues."
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted May 04, 2011 07:28 PM |
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I'm sorry for messing with you here, but can someone answer me on this question:
What if USA never messed in the middle east?
Good question, one of the better ones I've seen in a bit.
Well for starters, Israel would've been annihilated and the Palestinians would've reclaimed their land, minus the debt they owed to the liberating nation(s).
If the U.S. had never messed in the middle east, Iran would've probably had a burgeoning democracy that would've been the envy of the Sunnis and the Arab Spring would've happened much faster with much less bloodshed.
It's also possible that if the U.S. hadn't meddled in the middle east, the Soviets would've had a much stronger influence there. Say what you want about the U.S. being a smug, arrogant, imperialist power. What would the Soviets have done there unchecked?
Edit: You Euros kill me sometimes. Bunch of whiny, sobby, complaining, unemployed cretins who can't give the U.S. credit for anything. I'd call you armchair quarterbacks but you bozos don't know about real football.
Who cares that the girl was witness to her father's death? Sucks to be her. I'm not going to focus on that. Instead, I'll focus on our intelligence community doing something right in finding the snow and for my president having the intestinal fortitude to make the call to send SEAL fireteams into Pakistan to take out Bin Laden directly.
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 04, 2011 07:43 PM |
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@Zeno:
Which is why I can't think of a convincing motivation for Osama being in league with the CIA. The strongest one would be that it would put him in a better position to harm Iran, but while the region has its own rivalries between one another, this is almost always trumped if they have a shared interest against an outside nuisance. The Taliban and Iran are far more likely to tolerate each other than Al Qaeda would be willing to tolerate the US. Osama has a long history of being very strongly opposed to US military bases in the M.E. before he became a terrorist leader. I can't conceive a reason for such a passionate ideologue to throw in his lot with the CIA.
Of course, as you say, all allegiances are ultimately rooted in self-interest, not "brotherly love", but I would still put the U.S.'s alliance with the Soviets or Afghanis on a much lower level than, as an example, the U.S.'s ongoing alliance with France. France has historically been the U.S.'s #1 ally, since they have largely had shared goals since the U.S.'s conception. They were both Republics, they were both trying to expand themselves on opposite sides of the globe, and they both shared rivalry with the British Crown. Later in the early 20th century they shared rivalries with the Central Powers and the Axis. Even during Napolean, while they weren't openly friends, they didn't really have any tensions. The U.S. purchased their remaining territories on the N. American mainland, which in turned was used to help fund their war in Europe. It has always been mutually beneficial for them to be allies on a more permanent basis, as opposed to other cases, where it's merely circumstantial and temporary.
I also don't see his capture as an excuse to be able withdraw from Afghanistan because there is already a decided upon time table put into place for that; whether or not the newly installed Afghan government stands half-an-ass of a chance of not being reclaimed by the Taliban once the U.S. packs up and leaves is yet to be seen. I think the installed government in Iraq has good odds, but I personally think Afghanistan is screwed.
        
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