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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 12:54 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:55, 22 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
of course, I was more thinking of the few muslims posing problems, trying to force their religion on everyone else.
Yeah, but that happens with christians too.
Just look at the other active thread in this forum atm, where two christians (I think) argue that homosexual people should be exluded from showering and sleeping next to the same sex.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 12:58 AM |
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but I haven't heard that the problem was so bad with christians. well, I don't remember having heard of christians mass murdering infidels recently. maybe I missed something?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 01:03 AM |
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Well, wasn't Breivik a christian?
But you're right, there are more muslims trying to "force" their religion on us than christians doing that. Which is not weird, since christianity has existed in Europe for a thousand years and Islams real expansion in Europe just started.
I also think there would be a lot more christian terrorists if it was muslim countries who invaded Europe, destroyed our schools and infrastructure, killed millions of civilians while their leader yells allah akhbar to his people etc. If Europe was in the Middle-Easts situation, we would probably have more extremists aswell.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 01:16 AM |
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oh yes breivik. it wasn't only political. even though the targets were members of a political party I think
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 01:34 AM |
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His goal was to kill off as many young, aspiring socialist politicans as possible. Because they support multiculturalism.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2012 02:32 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
of course, I was more thinking of the few muslims posing problems, trying to force their religion on everyone else.
Yeah, but that happens with christians too.
Just look at the other active thread in this forum atm, where two christians (I think) argue that homosexual people should be exluded from showering and sleeping next to the same sex.
No, there are no Christians who murder, but certainly the largest mass murders in recorded history have been by atheists.
The core teaching of Christianity is to love God and love your fellow man. The Bible clearly states that anyone who says they know God but who murders or hates does not know God. Jesus plainly stated that his followers are those who actually obey his teachings, not those who give lip service to his teachings.
Also, what I stated about the Boy Scouts is that they have certain core values (like a belief in God and certain moral standards) and that people who don't share those beliefs have no business in the organization. And I also said that people other than homosexuals have rights too. Homosexuals don't have a right to force straight people to get undressed in front of them or force them to shower with gays.
You have a right to start a Gay Scouts of America club that only gays who are atheists can belong to if that is your desire. And you can have a communal shower and latrine where everyone undresses in front of everyone else.
The thing about private organizations is they are private and cater to certain groups. If you don't share the values of that group then move on along and find a different group that shares your values or start your own club. Everyone does not have to believe what you do or do what you do.
Quote:
Well, wasn't Breivik a christian?
No, he is an atheist.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 03:00 AM |
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To further elaborate on Elodin's point, a Christian is someone who believes in the truth of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. A Christian is not merely someone who says "I am a Christian". If their beliefs contradict the teachings of the Bible, they aren't Christians. That's why there aren't many Christians around.
JJ:
The death penalty is an ambiguous issue for me. On one hand, executing innocent people is obviously bad, but on the other hand, killing the guilty may be better than letting them rot in prison. Then there is the deterrence effect to consider - if the threat of the death penalty prevents violent crime, it may save more innocent lives than it ends.
Xerox:
Religion doesn't evolve, but its adherents' attitude towards it changes. For example, I've known self-proclaimed Christians who told me to engage in sinful activity because God will forgive me if I ask for forgiveness. Then there are all the "it's only an ethical guide" and "it's not meant to be taken literally" people, for whom I don't have much respect.
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 03:36 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 03:38, 22 Jul 2012.
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Saying that mass murder is related to belief or non-belief is ridiculous. Mass murder is a mass murder, how the frack does it matter if the one responsible was religious or not?
Most christians suck at believing anyway and don't stay true to their Bible. I call it smorgasbord-christianity. Christians pick the parts of the bible that they think are nice and leave out tons of other things. They also make up stufff like "We don't want to kill prostitutes and homosexuals at all!"
I'm interested in theology so I read the Bible and it convinced me that god is an evil force and Satan is humanity's best friend. Just look at the Garden of Eden. You have a god who's basically a dictator and owns an army of indoctrinated slaves (Angels). Then there's a snake who frees humans from the dictator-god's iron hand. The snake enlightens us and gives us freedom. And enlightenment is religion's worst enemy, so it's not strange that the snake was painted as an evil creature in the Bible when it used to represent wisdom and health.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 22, 2012 03:38 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:12, 22 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
Well, wasn't Breivik a christian?
No, he is an atheist.
No he was a christian. Only because he sinned does not mean he did not accept Jesus as his lord and savior.
Atheism is the disbelief in god. Not believing in god does not mean to murder 70 children.
Quote:
To further elaborate on Elodin's point, a Christian is someone who believes in the truth of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. A Christian is not merely someone who says "I am a Christian". If their beliefs contradict the teachings of the Bible, they aren't Christians. That's why there aren't many Christians around.
If thats so, then elodin is supposed to kill us on the day of sabath. There are no real christians in the planet.
With that in regard,by elodin's gracious logic everybody must be an atheist, even muslims...
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No, there are no Christians who murder, but certainly the largest mass murders in recorded history have been by atheists.
Certainly, you are ignorant on the matter of things such as "Personality Cults".
They are just as dogmatic as religions. Pol Pot,Mao, Stalin , Enver Hoxha are great examples of dictators who had personality cults.
Personaltiy cults say something like "Insert dictator name" is god.
By what I can infer, your logic goes along the lines of :If somebody who murders happens to be christian then he is an atheist murderer. If he is an atheist then he is atheist murderer?
What a shame.A christian guy like you pretends,from religous ignorance, Breivik to not be a christian because he sinned. Elo,sinning does not mean you are not a christian. You are not a christian when you dont accept jesus as your saviour and lord. Not sinning. Nowhere in the bible is written that sinning excludes you from being a christian. Besides, how do you know somebody accepted Jesus as his/her saviour?
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but I haven't heard that the problem was so bad with christians. well, I don't remember having heard of christians mass murdering infidels recently. maybe I missed something?
You should definitely meet the witch hunters in africa killing off their daughters because of disease or no rain...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/witch-hunt-africas-hidden-war-on-women-1642907.html
Oh yes, they are following the words of the "Moral" bible.
Not convinced?
http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html
You will find islam there aswell so I am not being biased here.
I dont think you want me to talk about Hindu killings.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 03:41 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 03:44, 22 Jul 2012.
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omg so christians really can commit crimes too!!??
what a shock!
I can't think of one positive thing that religion has ever caused.
But I can think of a billion negative things.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted July 22, 2012 10:31 AM |
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I was curious to look into this thread and I am sad that I find much hate,aggression and disrespect of other opinions here!
So I think its better for me to get out of it and just quote what is written in COC:
Quote:
The Foundation: Respect.
* An attitude of consideration and appreciation.
* Courteous regard for people's feelings, opinions and actions.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color.
If Code Of Conduct is not clear,I wont be too.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 22, 2012 10:39 AM |
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Don't spoil the fun, they are arguing with Elo for the xxx time. Which recalls me Einstein's quote:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 22, 2012 10:45 AM |
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Well they're asking the same questions so...
Elodin has probably explained the "Christians can't murder" logic about a million times already and people never seem to get it.
Then again he keeps following it up with "Atheists have commited mass murder though" every time as well, which naturally makes people pissed as hell and spurs the same aggression we see in all of these threads.
It shall never end.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 22, 2012 11:04 AM |
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I thought given the answer already. I have not readThe Story of the Reformation and Short History of the Reformation. I think you should read.
 
I wrote earlier in the HC subjects.
P.S Catholic makes war against the Catholic. It's weird.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 22, 2012 02:12 PM |
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The Reformation was not exactly a glorious time for Christ. In short it became the old ways of the elite-bible-dictators not wanting to yield their power over the people. Once people had the bible in their own language and could read it themselves, a lot of past-practices stopped. The long un-civil war that followed may have been inevitable to correct the church but Luther didn't want the 1,ooo+ flavors of the Church we have today. He wanted the One (as Christ taught) to actually follow Christ.
A Nazi pic? They did "use the church as a propaganda tool" but they were not followers of Christ. Read about Dietrich Bonhoffer's struggle and death, to get the story of what happened inside the Church & the regime during the rise of Hitler.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2012 02:51 PM |
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Breivik stated he has no personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He states that he is not a "religious" Christian (Christianity is not his religion) but is culturally a Christian in that he claims (falsely) to share the cultural and social values of Christianity.
He writes on page 1307 of his online manifesto:
Clicky
Quote:
3.139 Distinguishing between cultural Christendom and religious Christendom –
reforming our suicidal Church
A majority of so called agnostics and atheists in Europe are cultural conservative Christians without even knowing it. So what is the difference between cultural Christians and religious Christians?
If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social,
identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.
In that paragraph he seems to actually claim to be either an atheist or agnostic from a religious perspective.
He appeared to want to defend European culture against Islam but murdering children or anyone else is not the way to do that.
No one who claims to be a Christian but who hates or murders is a Christian according to the Bible. The Bible says such a person is a liar.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Jesus said lip service does not make you a follower of his.
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Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Quote:
Most christians suck at believing anyway and don't stay true to their Bible. I call it smorgasbord-christianity. Christians pick the parts of the bible that they think are nice and leave out tons of other things. They also make up stufff like "We don't want to kill prostitutes and homosexuals at all!"
Quote:
If thats so, then elodin is supposed to kill us on the day of sabath. There are no real christians in the planet.
Christians ceratinly don't want to kill sinners. Christians are people who live a life of repentance, turning from sin to salvation through Jesus Christ. We'd like to bring others into the flock, not to kill them.
The Old Covenant that the nation of Israel was under had death penalties for various sins. That was the law of the nation. The Church is under the New Covenant and is not a physical nation with criminal laws. The Church is not authorized to punish anyone for any sin beyond disfellowshipping someone who claims to be a Christian but who refuses to turn from sin after being approached several times on the issue.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 22, 2012 07:53 PM |
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A cultural Christian is still a Christian, and nothing will change that.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2012 08:06 PM |
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There is only one kind of Christian according to the Bible and Breivik does not fit the Biblical definition of being a Christian. He certainly does not qualify as a person whose "culture" matches Christian teaching either.
Jesus said to love even your enemy and to do good to them, not to kill them. The core teaching of Christianity according to Jesus is to love God and to love your fellow man. Breivik does neither.
So no, he has no personal relationship with Jesus Christ and he does not follow the teachings of Christ. He can't be called a Christian by any stretch of the imagination and indeed identifies himself as either an atheist or agnostic. It is sad that some atheists continue to try to paint him as a Christian in spite of the clear evidence to the contrary.
Quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
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Revelation
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted July 22, 2012 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
Jesus said to love even your enemy and to do good to them, not to kill them.
So why did you kill them?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2012 08:52 PM |
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Apparently Christians can kill people if it's their duty. Otherwise they can't.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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