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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 11, 2013 11:18 PM |
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Who are you quoting? If you claim to be quoting me your claim is false.
When you present the Bible as an evidence of God, this is automatically what you're saying:
- Why is there a God?
- The Bible says so.
- Why does the Bible count?
- God says so.
No, the Bible counts because it is a historical document that relates many of the words and actions of God and many testimonies of people down through the ages. It is also a document accepted by billions of people. Evidence.
I've already explained many reasons why I know God exists.
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I didn't answer to the omniscient thing because that was not what I said, I said I'm 99.999 percent certain that such an anthropomorphic God (which is obviously originated in some mythology btw)isn't the truth.
You said a God who knows everything is a primitive, childish, and anthropomorphic concept of God. And you stated, "I know such a primitive concept is NOT the truth, that it's so far from it with 99.9999999 percent certainty." How exactly is the idea that God is all-knowing childish or primitive? How can you be 99.9999999% certain that such a concept of God is "far from" the truth?
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Now, let's come to your evidences:
1- The Universe:
Neither scientifically nor philosophically, the existence of the universe necessarily indicates a God.
The idea of an eternal universe is irratinoal and in opposition to science.
The idea of a universe that created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing is irrational and in opposition to known science.
Hubble Telescope an COBE satellite observations were the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. As if the laws of thermodynamics were not enough.
The rational conclusion is that God is the origin of the universe as God matches exactly the requirements of a first cause as I have previously described.
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2- The Bible: Look above.
The Bible is a historical document and is certainly evidence of God. It chronicles the testimony of believers throughout history and the actions of God throughout history. In fact there are many more copies of the Bible than of any other ancient document. It is the most reliable ancient document we have.
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3- My personal experiences: That's the definition of subjective, something NOT wanted in an evidence.
My personal experiences are evidence of God. You have exactly no knowledge of my personal experiences. My wife and I could sit down and have a cup of tea every day with the Almighty and you'd not know it.
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4- Testimony of friends: Yeah, people like you, born into a massively conservative, Christian culture.
You have exactly no knowledge of who my friends are or of their backgrounds. Therefore your claim to know the backgrounds of my friends is either:
1) a willful, deliberate lie;
2) evidence of delusion; or
3) an irrational assumption.
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Why don't any Buddhists ever witness or experience Jesus is still a wonder.
And you know for a fact a Buddhist has never witnessed or experienced Jesus OR that Jesus has never reached out to a Buddhist and been rejected or misunderstood?
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Again, definitely not evidence and using Occham's Razor, can be explained in such a simpler way: Cultural conditioning.
Anti-theism makes such dogmatic and irrational claims. Anti-theism starts with the idea that God does does not exist and pronounces judgement on everyone and everything based on that irrational viewpoint.
I have explained previously in my personal testimony that I did not remain in my parents belief system and that I was dis-owned for a time for my religious beliefs. I've also been beaten simply for being a Christian. That was a fun pastime of certain bullies at school who thought it hilarious that they could beat someone bigger than they were and him not fight back. No doubt later in life they continued their bullying as anti-theists.
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5- Miracles: None of them are beyond possible materialistic explanations, you are the one perceiving such things as "miracles." It's not like you witnessed the Red Sea dividing into two.
The fact is hundreds of millions of people currently alive claim to have experienced or witnessed miracles themselves (I linked to the study.) That is evidence.
My sister was healed of scoliosis, a curved back, and a short leg. Modern medicine can't cure scoliosis. She not only cast aside her shoe insert and was not faced with the prospect of wearing leg braces for the rest of her life she soon became the starting point guard of the varsity basketball team.
Powerful evidence for those who knew her at the time. The church she and my parents attended asked her and my parents to leave because the church taught miracles no longer happened. And indeed for them miracles no longer happen because they are not open to them.
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6- History: I don't understand what you mean by that. You say you dont mean historically most people were monotheists (that's why I gave you the numbers, because you said history is evidence. My answer to: "When did I or the Bible say most people would be Christians? Jesus said narrow is the gate and few enter in.")
How does history prove God? You just line up words but make no meaningful connection to them proving God.
Again, you seldom answer any question I ask. You just rant about religion and religious people. Bullying.
As I've stated, I see God's hand in history. That is evidence for me.
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"6- Cats."
"I can see God's hand in history. I can see certain things the Bible spoke about beforehand fulfilled." is not evidence, they are your PURELY subjective interpretations and they are not even elaborated.
6 was history, not "Cats."
No, there were events fortold hundreds or more than a thousand years before they happened. Evidence.
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As I stated earlier you dont even know what evidence means.
Yes, you continually belittle me. Bullying.
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And for the hundredth, well by now actually two hundredth time: You can not expect evidence on non-existence of unfalsifiable things, there is no such method, by doing that you may think you're making a clever move but unfortunately it just shows your lack of formation on such matters.
Continually repeating that you can make dogmatic claims and have to offer no evidence but theists do have to offer evidence for their claims is not rational.
You make the dogmatic claim that God does not exist. The most a person who does not believe in the existence of God could say **rationally** is "I don't believe in God."
My beliefs about God are based on evidence. I have more evidence for my beliefs than you have for yours.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 12, 2013 12:04 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:05, 12 Jul 2013.
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No, the Bible counts because it is a historical document that relates many of the words and actions of God and many testimonies of people down through the ages. It is also a document accepted by billions of people. Evidence.
The Bible is not a historical document in the academic sense, it is not accepted so by historians, some of the events in it may of course have some historical relevance but they are legends as the way they are told in the book. No historian that presents a new hypothesis takes the miracles in a religious book literally. These are not my ideas, they are simple methodological facts not open to debate. Go to any historian in a respected university and ask them if the Red Sea divided into two. Also the Bible is not a single document but a collection of texts that has been put together long after Jesus was dead, it is not even known if in the first days of Christianity people considered him a God:
Chalcedonian Christianity
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You said a God who knows everything is a primitive, childish, and anthropomorphic concept of God. And you stated, "I know such a primitive concept is NOT the truth, that it's so far from it with 99.9999999 percent certainty."
My exact words were these:
If in such a huge universe and such great length of time, a belief is based on a God who puts some humans above everything else and spends his time watching things such as if they had sex out of wedlock or not, that level of anthropomorphical egocentric behavior can only be described with the word CHILDISH to me. I'm sorry, it's not deep, it's not sophisticated, it's actually quite primitive.
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The idea of an eternal universe is irratinoal and in opposition to science.
The idea of a universe that created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing is irrational and in opposition to known science.
Hubble Telescope an COBE satellite observations were the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. As if the laws of thermodynamics were not enough.
You are so out of proportion. Scientists themselves are mostly not theists and even the theist ones deny your claims and say their belief is personal not effecting their job. You are either so lost on those apologist sites you link or bluntly making things up that only you, yourself believe in: Wake UP. None of your claims on what is irrational or unscientific is shared by the scientists themselves!
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My personal experiences are evidence of God. You have exactly no knowledge of my personal experiences. My wife and I could sit down and have a cup of tea every day with the Almighty and you'd not know it.
And then you accuse me of bullying you when I tell you, you dont know what an evidence is. It is something you can display objectively to begin with. This is just... sigh.
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You have exactly no knowledge of who my friends are or of their backgrounds. Therefore your claim to know the backgrounds of my friends is either:
1) a willful, deliberate lie;
2) evidence of delusion; or
3) an irrational assumption.
My psychic abilities tell me if they believe praying results in miracles and they are Texans who talk about experiencing God, they are mostly devoted Christians like you.
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And you know for a fact a Buddhist has never witnessed or experienced Jesus OR that Jesus has never reached out to a Buddhist and been rejected or misunderstood?
How can Jesus want to reach someone and fail (be misunderstood) if he is God and God is omnipotent?
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As I've stated, I see God's hand in history. That is evidence for me.
That is, not only not evidence, it is not even an explanation. It's just a vague generalization.
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Continually repeating that you can make dogmatic claims and have to offer no evidence but theists do have to offer evidence for their claims is not rational.
I will continually repeat it as long as you tactically ignore it:
We have no valid reason to assume a God, so we dont. That is not a stance/claim that demands evidence, it is a logical position. You on the other hand, claim something exists and therefore, are expected to show valid reasons for it. Once again, you can't.
Besides, the mythologicalness and the anthropomorphism of your specific God, alone, is enough to rule him out as a rational explanation.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 12:57 AM |
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The idea of an eternal universe is irratinoal and in opposition to science.
The idea of a universe that created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing is irrational and in opposition to known science.
The idea of an eternal God is irrational and in opposition to science.  Sorry, it isn't an evidence of anything, it's more of an irrational disagreement with the Big Bang theory. You can't prove something that lacks logic by disproving something that lacks the same logic.
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The Bible is a historical document and is certainly evidence of God. It chronicles the testimony of believers throughout history and the actions of God throughout history. In fact there are many more copies of the Bible than of any other ancient document. It is the most reliable ancient document we have.
So if Edda, a historical document describing Old Norse and its gods, had nowadays more copies than the Bible, would it make Thor real?
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My personal experiences are evidence of God. You have exactly no knowledge of my personal experiences. My wife and I could sit down and have a cup of tea every day with the Almighty and you'd not know it.
I don't know it and I can't check it. It's not an evidence, it's just your personal experience which no one can prove or disprove in any way. It's pure faith.
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And you know for a fact a Buddhist has never witnessed or experienced Jesus OR that Jesus has never reached out to a Buddhist and been rejected or misunderstood?
Do you know for a fact that he did witness or experience and did reject or misunderstand?
If he doesn't have a spiritual experience as you do (because, e.g., he doesn't believe in God or in Heaven), then yours and his personal experiences are quite contrary. And since your personal experience can't be proved by a buddhists and his personal experience can't be proved by you, either both are evidences for contrary beliefs or none of them.
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My sister was healed of scoliosis, a curved back, and a short leg. Modern medicine can't cure scoliosis. She not only cast aside her shoe insert and was not faced with the prospect of wearing leg braces for the rest of her life she soon became the starting point guard of the varsity basketball team.
Powerful evidence for those who knew her at the time.
Okay, that's an experience you can name a miracle. Now how does that exactly prove that your God exists? You realise that your personal experience isn't objective at all, so you can't say "I know it" and expect everyone to agree with that. As I stated earlier, methodology in the Bible is disputable, so it's not an evidence, just a historical document with some fragments provable (although with less than 100% accuracy, like if Jesus existed) and some not quite.
So, in general, you believe that this miracle is because of God, but it doesn't seem to be a really a good evidence. It's rather an opinion, statement, faith - but not an evidence.
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As I've stated, I see God's hand in history.
And I asked how can I see it too. Seriously - I want to see some evidence of God's hand ANYWHERE. But I don't see it. Can you show me the way?
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No, there were events fortold hundreds or more than a thousand years before they happened.
Like what exactly?
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Yes, you continually belittle me.
Elodin, please. If someone says you're doing something wrong, don't immediately take it as bullying, making false statements or such. Think about it rather as an advice. If I said that Christian God looks like an elephant and you said that I'm wrong and I don't even know what I'm talking about, should I feel offended by that?
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You make the dogmatic claim that God does not exist.
Ever heard of Russell's teapot? Do you believe that it exists?
If an existence of something can't be really proven objectively, then that objectively means it either:
- isn't real,
- we, people, can't say it's real, or
- it's an abstract stuff, like some of our emotions.
Now, you can say that something exists even if you can't prove it rationally, I don't really mind that (that is if you're a good person), but expecting anyone to prove it's nonexistence would be actually stupid and make your belief even more absurd for other people.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 12, 2013 03:30 AM |
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<< Like what exactly?>>
Plenty of things about the Messiah which were written by prophets long before Jesus' time.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 03:56 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 03:59, 12 Jul 2013.
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Yeah, and many people who believe in these prophets are also convinced that Messiah hasn't come yet. No evidence at all, it's the same way as I predict that there will be a good president of USA in the future.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 12, 2013 04:04 AM |
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It's like you predict there will be a president who will do great things, but some people think he didn't do things which were great in their eyes so they don't think he's the one.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 12, 2013 06:41 AM |
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artu said:
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No, the Bible counts because it is a historical document that relates many of the words and actions of God and many testimonies of people down through the ages. It is also a document accepted by billions of people. Evidence.
The Bible is not a historical document in the academic sense, it is not accepted so by historians, some of the events in it may of course have some historical relevance but they are legends as the way they are told in the book.
The Bible is certainly a historical document, and the most copies of ANY ancient historical document that we have. It records many verifiable events. Of course you can say "Nuh uh, Elijah did not raise a boy from the dead because there is no God because God does not exist," which appears to be the crux of your reasoning in most of your attacks on religion and religious people.
Clicky
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Many people do not believe that the Bible is a reliable document of history. But, the fact is the Bible is very trustworthy as a historical document. If we were to look at a chart that compared the biblical documents with other ancient documents, we would see that the Bible is in a class by itself regarding the number of ancient copies and their reliability. Please consider the chart below.1
**I can't copy charts so you have to go to the page to see the chart**
It should be obvious that the biblical documents, especially the New Testament documents, are superior in their quantity, time span from original occurrence, and textual reliability. People still question if the documents are reliably transmitted to us; but they should rather ask if the biblical documents record actual historical accounts.
The Bible is a book of History
It could be said that the Bible is a book of history -- and it is. The Bible describes places, people, and events in various degrees of detail. It is essentially an historical account of the people of God throughout thousands of years. If you open to almost any page in the Bible you will find a name of a place and/or a person. Much of this can be verified from archaeology. Though archaeology cannot prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God, it has the ability to prove whether or not some events and locations described therein are true or false. So far, however, there isn't a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.
Nevertheless, many people used to think that the Bible had numerous historical errors in it such as Luke's account of Lysanias being the tetrarch of Abiline in about 27 AD (Luke 3:1). For years scholars used this "factual error" to prove Luke was wrong because it was common knowledge that Lysanias was not a tetrarch, but the ruler of Chalcis about 50 years earlier than what Luke described. But an archaeological inscription was found that said Lysanias was the tetrarch in Abila near Damascus at the time that Luke said. It turns out that there had been two people name Lysanias and Luke had accurately recorded the facts.
Also, the walls of Jericho have been found, destroyed just as the Bible says. Many critics doubted that Nazareth ever existed, yet archaeologists have found a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea that has verified its existence. Finds have verified the existence of Herod the Great and his son Herod Antipas. The remains of the Apostle Peter's house have been found at Capernaum. Bones with nail scars through the wrists and feet have been uncovered as well demonstrating the actuality of crucifixion. The High Priest Caiaphas' bones have been discovered in an ossuary (a box used to store bones).
There is, of course, a host of archaeological digs that corroborate biblical records on places such as Bethsaida, Bethany, Caesarea Philippi, Capernaum, Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc.
An inscribed stone was found that refers to Pontius Pilate, named as Prefect of Judaea.’ (The New Bible Dictionary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.)
Luke 3:1, "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea..."
"A decree of Claudius found at Delphi (Greece) describes Gallio as proconsul of Achaia in ad 51, thus giving a correlation with the ministry of Paul in Corinth (Acts 18:12)." (The New Bible Dictionary)
Acts 18:12, "But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat."
Excavations have revealed a text naming a benefactor Erastus which may be a reference relating to the city-treasurer of Rom. 16:23. (The New Bible Dictionary)
Rom. 16:23, "Gaius, host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the city treasurer greets you, and Quartus, the brother."
At Ephesus parts of the temple of Artemis have been uncovered as is mentioned in Acts 19:28-41. (The New Bible Dictionary)
Acts 19:28, "And when they heard this and were filled with rage, they began crying out, saying, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians."
"It is known that Quirinius was made governor of Syria by Augustus in AD 6. Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay discovered several inscriptions that indicated that Quirinius was governor of Syria on two occasions, the first time several years prior to this date... archaeology has provided some unexpected and supportive answers. Additionally, while supplying the background behind these events, archaeology also assists us in establishing several facts: (1) A taxation-census was a fairly common procedure in the Roman Empire and it did occur in Judea, in particular. (2) Persons were required to return to their home city in order to fulfill the requirements of the process. (3) These procedures were apparently employed during the reign of Augustus (37 BC–AD 14), placing it well within the general time frame of Jesus’ birth."2
"The historical trustworthiness of Luke has been attested by a number of inscriptions. The ‘politarchs’ of Thessalonica (Acts 17:6,8) were magistrates and are named in five inscriptions from the city in the 1st century AD. Similarly Publius is correctly designated proµtos (‘first man’) or Governor of Malta (Acts 28:7). Near Lystra inscriptions record the dedication to Zeus of a statue of Hermes by some Lycaonians, and near by was a stone altar for ‘the Hearer of Prayer’ (Zeus) and Hermes. This explains the local identification of Barnabas and Paul with Zeus (Jupiter) and Hermes (Mercury) respectively (Acts 14:11). Derbe, Paul’s next stopping-place, was identified by Ballance in 1956 with Kaerti Hüyük near Karaman (ASLuke 2:2) and to Lysanias as tetrarch of Abilene (Luke 3:1) have likewise received inscriptional support." (The New Bible Dictionary.) 7, 1957, pp. 147ff.). Luke’s earlier references to Quirinius as governor of Syria before the death of Herod I (Luke 2:2) and to Lysanias as tetrarch of Abilene (Luke 3:1) have likewise received inscriptional support." (The New Bible Dictionary.)
There are many such archaeological verifications of biblical events and places. Is the Bible trustworthy? Absolutely! Remember, no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted the Bible. Therefore, since it has been verified over and over again throughout the centuries, we can continue to trust it as an accurate historical document.
As far as the remainder of your post, I have not the time to reply at the moment as I am making preparations for going out of town tomorrow.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 08:40 AM |
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The number of printed books is certainly irrelevant. Hitler's "Mein Kampf" was printed 11 million times in Germany until 1944.
By the way, it's still printed in a couple of countries, most noteworthy Turkey, where it has reached s 100.000 a couple of years ago.
And if that's not enough - take the so called "Mao Bible", the words of Mao Tse Tung, number of copies printed since 1965: 1 BILLION.
Anyway, people, it's obvious that this argument isn't going anywhere. People believe what they want to believe, and people are known and likely to make their own conclusions from known and certain facts or from allegedly and supposedly known and certain facts.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 12, 2013 10:28 AM |
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The number of printed books is certainly irrelevant. Hitler's "Mein Kampf" was printed 11 million times in Germany until 1944.
By the way, it's still printed in a couple of countries, most noteworthy Turkey, where it has reached s 100.000 a couple of years ago.
That's always a mystery to me. Since Turks are definitely not Aryan according to Hitler and Neo-Nazis are even burning Turkish immigrants sometimes, why would a nationalist Turk pick that book? But I guess the extreme Turkish nationalists are not known for their intellectual sharpness or historical accuracy.
Btw, I understand Germany's sensitivity about the subject since all of the suffering Hitler caused but I still think it's not exactly right to ban the book in Germany. I consider WW2 one of the most important events of 20th century, if not the most important. Hitler is one of the central figures in that war, so the book he wrote has historical significance. I'm guessing it's not banned for history professors and such but what if a regular German citizen just gets curious about what Hitler wrote? Well, this is the age of internet anyway.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 10:47 AM |
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Actually the book was never banned nationwide. The copyrights of the book is owned by the state of Bavaria and it has barred reprinting of the book. The copyright expires 2015.
Sure it's publication seems long overdue, but at least for the 20 years after WW2 in my opinion it was a good call to pull it out from the public. Just as a safety measure in the fear of it helping to revive Hitlers legacy.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 11:28 AM |
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Russia has it prohibited.
In Germany, ownership of the original prints and offering them in second-hand bookstores is allowed, but as Minion said, Bavaria currently has the rights and doesn't allow a reprint (which doesn't make sense, though, considering the internet). We will see what will happen in 3 years, though.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 12, 2013 12:53 PM |
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If there would be anything prooven in the bible, we wouldn't call it "belief" andymore, but "proof".
And not again the argument "billions think THIS, so IT IS true". This is so......no...I will not say...
Billions of girls think Justin BIEBER is God.....Evidence!
With arguments in a way like this, you make it even more impossible for atheists or non-believers to even think about a little truth in religion and the bible at all.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 01:00 PM |
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Since Turks are definitely not Aryan according to Hitler and Neo-Nazis are even burning Turkish immigrants sometimes, why would a nationalist Turk pick that book?
Maybe that's just curiosity? It's like with the Bible - there are many non-Christians who read it not because it's something they accept as a sacred book (or even as historical document), but rather due to simple question: Why people are/were reading or believing in it?
I'd like to read Mein Kampf because of such curiosity even if I'm not nationalist in any sense. But I don't know, maybe I would later regret it.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 12, 2013 01:12 PM |
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I was going to read it out of curiousity too but then I changed my mind and decided it would be time much better spent to read the trilogy by William L. Shirer. That was a good book. But I dont think that's the case here. A book selling near 100.000 is big in Turkey, it indicates something more than curiousity.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 01:21 PM |
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 12, 2013 01:29 PM |
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Yeah JJ got it I think.
According to opinion polls conducted in 2007-2009 64% of Turks do not want to see Jews as their neighbors, 76% has a negative attitude towards Jews, and only 7% is positive. -wiki
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 12, 2013 01:33 PM |
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Good point. Nowadays anti-semitics are usually Islamists here (because of Philistine) and they are not sympathetic to Hitler or nationalism in general. Traditionally, it is the nationalists that say things like "well, at least the man was dedicated to his country." But it's a very reasonable assumption.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 12, 2013 02:28 PM |
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I have read Mein Kampf, yes.
But also, << there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.>> (Gal 3.28)
I don't think I'm anti-Semitic, I don't hate Jews, I just don't think so highly of them...
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2013 04:33 PM |
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angelito said:
If there would be anything prooven in the bible, we wouldn't call it "belief" andymore, but "proof".
Knowledge is belief - justified true belief. A belief being justified doesn't make it any less of a belief.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 13, 2013 04:45 PM |
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mvassilev said:
angelito said:
If there would be anything prooven in the bible, we wouldn't call it "belief" andymore, but "proof".
Knowledge is belief - justified true belief. A belief being justified doesn't make it any less of a belief.
Belief is not knowledge, it's assumption. If you say "I believe it wasn't Oswald who killed JFK" that is your opinion, if you say "I know it wasn't Oswald who killed JFK" you'll be expected to produce some evidence though.Plato's very arguable definition of knowledge (=justified true belief) doesn't mean you can reverse it as belief = knowledge.
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This thread is pages long: 
