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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 18, 2013 04:24 PM |
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Quote:
As Elodin alreadsy mentioned...God is everywhere and everytime. He knows everything. So why on earth do the believers PRAY at all? This won't help anything. All men are equal...so why should he help ONE boxer win his fight, while he let's the other one down?
<imo> Prayer is for the person. It is the best way to create or strengthen a mindset. However I never prayed for victory just being a good sport.<L>
For me, I have to pray about something for me to truly be serious about that something. Ofc, we can set goals in our life and just scribble them down on a sheet of paper or type them into some text file but Prayer is about "all parts of us" mind, body and soul.
I've done both; looked at a goal at the start of my day and also; went into my "inner-chamber" to start the day.
I could write "be nice" to those that I have trouble with or even type/clip some great text; some verse, famous-quote, etc. and then enshrine my new motto all around me for a reminder but that's more a notion of doing something, more of a I-want then I-will. Prayer does much more, it fully engages the person. I,E, Instead of reading a few words about patience, I picture the person that I know could cause me grief today and then I can mentally bring to bear any/all text, any emotion and all of my energies to attempt to better "my part" in the next encounter and if I had been the real problem I would quickly see results.  <imo> Prayer is the best "focus" any human can have; that's why we were taught the Lord's prayer.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2013 04:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:44, 18 Jul 2013.
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Markkur, what you've described also could have been a self-motivation exercise from one of those self-improvement books. Angelito did not talk about that aspect, he talked about the part in which people literally ask for favors. It doesn't have to be about something unimportant like sports either, it may be about praying to survive in the battlefield (well, in such a case, at least the psychological need is understandable), but his point was, how can it practically work?(Especially, when both sides are doing it I might add.)
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 04:40 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 16:41, 18 Jul 2013.
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I think it's because every theist thinks about different God as a person, even if they have the same God in mind. 
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 18, 2013 04:53 PM |
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artu said:
Markkur, what you've described also could have been a self-motivation exercise from one of those self-improvement books. Angelito did not talk about that aspect, he talked about the part in which people literally ask for favors. It doesn't have to be about something unimportant like sports either, it may be about praying to survive in the battlefield (well, in such a case, at least the psychological need is understandable), but his point was, how can it practically work?(Especially, when both sides are doing it I might add.)
OK, what I read sounded more like "why Pray"
Anyway, I've never asked God for things for myself very often, seems there was and is always too much need around me. Btw, I've read a lot of older motivational stuff and there was never anything like what I just described. However, many things of Faith's realm (universal)are being repackaged and sold today and not only within the Christian marketplace.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2013 05:02 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:03, 18 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
However, many things of Faith's realm (universal)are being repackaged and sold today and not only within the Christian marketplace.
Well, of course. "Faith's realm" didn't drop from outer space, it emerged among people with the same psychological needs, motivations and tendencies. Same things being responded on more secular platforms today (and more consumerist may be a point of criticism but remembering RC Church actually charged money for confession, I'd say not much changed) is only natural because people themselves are more secular, as I stated earlier, even the religious ones.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 06:04 PM |
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artu said:
Quote:
However, many things of Faith's realm (universal)are being repackaged and sold today and not only within the Christian marketplace.
Well, of course. "Faith's realm" didn't drop from outer space, it emerged among people with the same psychological needs, motivations and tendencies. Same things being responded on more secular platforms today is only natural because people themselves are more secular, as I stated earlier, even the religious ones.
I have to agree with both of you at the same time and I really don't see the quarrel.
1. Do I believe that a begot can be the allmighty creator of all things?
Are you crazy? I don't drink that much alchool...
2. Do I believe 'prayer' works?
Yes, in ourdays I usually use Osho's material for that but I've used Karate, Kung-Fu, Yoga and many other technics.
Objective: keep me focused and have more control over my life (Ops, I don't mean "to be hable to beat the crap of...", no ilusions about that).
3. Do I believe in 'spiritual experiences'?
Definetively YES. It will however depend on the definiton of 'spiritual'.
4. Do I directly connect this experiences to the possible existence of God?
No, not so much.
5. Believing in prayer makes me a religious person?
I supose in fact it does, but not a theistic one.
6. So, maybe this makes other sense now:
"There may be a day when the courage of men fails but today is not that day!"
I really do believe in mankind, it's a faith and history is yet failed to prove it. So, please keep trying.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2013 05:52 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 17:54, 19 Jul 2013.
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bloodsucker said:
I have to agree with both of you at the same time and I really don't see the quarrel.
I agree, I don't think there is one here, we just have different perspectives.
My Faith is very simple these days.
I don't think Random-Chance could ever create this incredible universe. Closer to home, Man has made everything from pet-rocks to Rockets and used everything from A to Zinc to do it. It is said we're made in the makers-image and I think & believe I see a glimpse in everyone around me. There was a man in KCMO that made a castle out of trash, now there's a divine-spark if there ever was one.
I can't get proofs but now have no need of them anyway. I've also stopped debating "Church" with my brothers and sisters. I freely admit; I trust in Christ's promise by hoping & trying to help others that are in my reach...as much as I can. "Life is a vapor that will soon pass away."
The truth is, I now regret taking so much time to get to this simplicity but it wasn't my basic nature.
Peace.
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"Do your own research"
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 06:46 PM |
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I don't think Random-Chance could ever create this incredible universe.
How about that Random-Chance is just one of the factors and that "this incredible universe" isn't the only thing that exists? And I'm not talking about God, I'm rather thinking about some kind of "megauniverse" in which our universe has been created just by physical and chemical processes (which are both random and predictable). This "megauniverse" could also be created in the same way in some "terauniverse" and so on. That, of course, would still be irrational (because of e.g. infinity which is an abstract concept and can't be measured physically), yet for me it would be somehow more logical than any kind of personal God designing anything in our universe. Besides, the "problem" of the First Cause would be solved pretty easily - in such case, the First Cause isn't needed at all.
But, of course, it's just my explanation, and since my mind is too weak to even comprehend such simple concept as finite universe, it's probably nothing more than garbage.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 06:50 PM |
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Quote:
I don't think Random-Chance could ever create this incredible universe.
If you roll a million-sided die, the chance of it landing on 1 is rather low. But if it does, you shouldn't be surprised and assume there's something supernatural going on.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 19, 2013 06:59 PM |
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In my arrogant opinion, believing in a random chance created unvierse is more rdiculous than believing in the flying spaghetti monster.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 19, 2013 07:03 PM |
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Hobbit said:
But, of course, it's just my explanation, and since my mind is too weak to even comprehend such simple concept as finite universe, it's probably nothing more than garbage.
I've thought the same. I've imagined all we see is in fact, only one cell on a Titan's toe. Now that's a universe to talk about! 
My belief could prove false but at least I lived my decided way...to be the best I could be... at "the end of all things" Besides, if everyone here is right and I' proven wrong?; I will not have to eat crow. 
Quote:
If you roll a million-sided die, the chance of it landing on 1 is rather low. But if it does, you shouldn't be surprised and assume there's something supernatural going on.
You know that's a saloon-door...cause it swings both ways.
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"Do your own research"
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 19, 2013 07:05 PM |
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In my even more arrogant opinion, believing that the universe was created by something which was not created is more ridiculous than believing in the god of the spaghetti monsters.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 19, 2013 07:08 PM |
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In my moreso arrogant opinion, God as the cause of everything makes way more sense than tales of big bangs and nothing exploding into nothing to create something.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 07:08 PM |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 19, 2013 07:11 PM |
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^ Still a better story than the big bang.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 19, 2013 07:11 PM |
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As usual, what makes sense to you is totally irrelevant to how the world functions. Or the logic, at the very least, where your sense-making normally falls flat on its face.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 19, 2013 07:12 PM |
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Logic? I am a dreamer and an idealist, mostly. Logic isn't how I try to perceive the world.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 07:15 PM |
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Guys, faith is faith but if you're talking about possibility here, that debate is scientifically over. Even Stephen Hawking who was known to have some doubt back in the eighties said that with today's theories (scientific explanations) the existence of universe is explainable by itself and we need no external agent. So even if this is the only universe and not part of a multiverse, we don't need a deity or a supernatural force. And it's always good to remember we are living in an explosion in which more than 90 percent is dark matter. We are like a noise in the background of a song and our kind's life time here is like a nano second compared to how old the universe is.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 19, 2013 07:17 PM |
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In my even more arrogant view, an uncreated infinite,omnieverything sentient sapient being being responsible for everything and being able to cause singularities with magic is as ridiculous as believing in godly space carebears.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted July 19, 2013 07:17 PM |
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^ Which is why I find it extremely arrogant that humans think they have all the answers. Yes, even religion is incomplete and rather insignificant compared to the whole universe.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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