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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2011 02:26 PM |
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Bak, I didn't know Jesus taught equal rights for everyone. I thought, he taught to love one another, but had no problems with some being rich and some being poor, some being king and some common folk - and I don't think he would have broken a lance for women's lib.
After all, what do people need equal rights for, when the priviledged are somewhat "asked" to be fair and love one another?
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baklava
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posted December 08, 2011 03:17 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:26, 08 Dec 2011.
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Seriously, JJ? The guy was an ancient Hebrew prophet. Not a Marxist theoretician. You can do better than that.
Jesus knew full well he couldn't go around abolishing kings, nor was that his mission. Christianity, back when it had something to do with Christ, was not a political thing. Claims about him being the foretold king of the Jews were met with ridicule because people wanted a political, worldly saviour, the kind they got used to in the Old Testament. Jesus was something else. He was trying to teach people to lead themselves, that the only laws that actually mean anything more than pure coercion are the personal ones, those you follow in heart. He also tried to teach people to play along, not waste themselves in futile physical rebellions against far more powerful forces of the emperor, and to be above that - maybe realizing that those forces would fall anyhow, or even change eventually. He was a thorn in the side of many, especially organized religion, and a lot of people waited for his mistake - even this way, he was accused by his own people to the Romans for trying to undermine the Roman authority.
He didn't try to abolish personal property either, and I can't see how that's related to equal rights. Of course, he taught that those who have less essentially have more; that the material wealth hardly means anything, if you're devoid of the richness of the spirit, which too much power or gold can often obstruct. He was a poor man's preacher, a guy who gave hope to the dregs of society, while making the rich folk wonder (before the Catholic Church taught them everything's cool if they pay up for their absolution). He tried to cause people to bring out, and keep, the best in them. He didn't try to change the system, and he didn't try to change the people, because he knew that shyte wasn't up to him - he tried to teach them to change themselves, to make a world better than the mess they had back then (and the slightly better-dressed mess we have now). He made an offer, which of course most people refused.
So, all in all, you rolled a critical miss on the point I was trying to make.
Also, women's liberation, lol.
The guy supported the liberation of mankind. This was 2000 years ago. Slavery was legal. Of both genders. Next thing you'll say is that he was ok with racism. Or homophobia.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2011 03:48 PM |
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So you make Elodin's point about REAL Christians who wouldn't need laws, equal rights and whatnot, since they would all live like sheep and love each other, and if they didn't die they still live, amen.
It just doesn't work that way - after so much time this should be glaringly obvious: IF humans were perfect, we'd never lost paradise in the first place. We are not, though.
Which means, your point may be a hit in Heaven, but on Earth it's a dud.
You just HAVE to measure people and their teachings by the results, at least in part, and considering that Jesus was such a nice guy wanting to liberate the whole mankind, it would seem that he failed to address the Eve problem - you'd have thought he might include a couple of WOMEN into his inner circle, with him upsetting the priests and rabbis anyway.
Shouldn't God have sent his DAUGHTER, if he really wanted to make peace with his creations? And don't tell me about times and impact. Theer ARE a couple of female characters in Jewish religious history.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 08, 2011 04:30 PM |
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Make peace with his creations? HAhahaha!
When has god ever wronged his creations?
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Darkshadow
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posted December 08, 2011 04:38 PM |
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Make peace with his creations? HAhahaha!
When has god ever wronged his creations?
Well, there were those couple of times he childishly murdered alot of people, not much besides that.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2011 04:42 PM |
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But that's not what I meant.
After the paradise incident they were out of favor, and supposedly he wanted to change that by sending, of all things, his SON, when it would have been more fitting to send his daughter.
As a statement that would have been somewhat more fitting, I'd say.
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Fauch
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posted December 08, 2011 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:49, 08 Dec 2011.
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but it seems to me that most people don't really have benefits in making a hell of other people's lives. if it weren't for a few extremly greedy and power thirsty people who do their best to set people against each others, it might not be too bad.
actually, it would probably more right to say that most people are better at making a hell of their own life. usually we try not to mess with other people's lives too much so as to avoid problems.
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gnomes2169
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posted December 09, 2011 12:36 AM |
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not a christian country. If it was, then we would not give rights to those who are prostitutes, atheists or otherwise heathens for not believing in God's son, Christ.
Didn't mean to participate in this one (again), just saw this part accidentally and though what the heck.
I think you got it wrong, mate, at least if you're thinking about Jesus' teachings.
Bro, I went on in the paragraph a little bit... you know, pointing out how countries and leaders twist and break the religion they "Follow" to suit their own purposes? Any country that declares its official religion in notorious for denying those of different beliefs rights.
And what I meant was that a government officially supports and mandates the teachings of its religion. That's what I meant by "We do not live in a 'Christian' country."
@JJ
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Umm, prostitutes ARE discriminated against and count as criminals - what do you think where the reasons for that one come from?
Bad example on my part. 
I'd think that it was because of the "Eww" factor for some, and for others that it was morally corrupt.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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baklava
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posted December 09, 2011 01:26 PM |
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And don't say that my post is wrong because what I point out is a twisting of the religion being taught, because that is actually the point of this post.
Oh.
...
Oh.
God damn it.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted December 10, 2011 04:44 AM |
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So you make Elodin's point about REAL Christians who wouldn't need laws, equal rights and whatnot, since they would all live like sheep and love each other, and if they didn't die they still live, amen.
When you state I try to make some point it would be nice if you would link to the point I made because you are not representing what I have said correctly.
Jesus did not come to start a political revolution or to advance anyone's political rights. Jesus came to start a spiritual "revolution" by redeeming man, making it possible for any person to become a child of the living God. Jesus calls on us to love God and to love each other as we love ourselves--that is the core of Christian living. To love others is often to live sacrificially, not always insisting on your own rights. A person living according to the teachings of Christ certainly does not need laws telling him not to rape others, kill others, steal from others, ect, since he will do none of those things.
In terms of actual equality, the Bible teaches ALL people are equal, regardless of race, gender, or station in life.
Some people have a rather bizarre view of equality. They think it means that there are no differences between people. For you to be equal to me you don't have to have the same amount of money, the same rugged good looks  , the same hair style, use the same deodorant, drive the same car, do the same job, or be the same gender. For a husband to be equal to his wife he does not have to be capable of bearing children  .
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2011 09:12 AM |
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In terms of actual equality, the Bible teaches ALL people are equal, regardless of race, gender, or station in life.
Before I answer to any of that:
I'm sure, you can PROVE that the Bible teaches equality of all people, by quoting the relevant statements there.
Because if it does, it's rather strange that people have not only failed to acknowledge that, they actually have always pointed to the Bible to justify INequality, resulting in 2000 years with the idea of a male and white dominated world.
Strangely enough - or, actually, not so strange at all - all 3 Abrahamic monotheistic religions have had a serious problem with female equality.
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Zenofex
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posted December 10, 2011 12:15 PM |
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Strangely enough - or, actually, not so strange at all - all 3 Abrahamic monotheistic religions have had a serious problem with female equality.
Nothing strange about it, they emerged in patriarchal societies, hence their teachings.
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Elodin
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posted December 10, 2011 01:55 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 13:58, 10 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
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In terms of actual equality, the Bible teaches ALL people are equal, regardless of race, gender, or station in life.
Before I answer to any of that:
I'm sure, you can PROVE that the Bible teaches equality of all people, by quoting the relevant statements there.
Because if it does, it's rather strange that people have not only failed to acknowledge that, they actually have always pointed to the Bible to justify INequality, resulting in 2000 years with the idea of a male and white dominated world.
Strangely enough - or, actually, not so strange at all - all 3 Abrahamic monotheistic religions have had a serious problem with female equality.
No one can point to the Bible and honestly say it says whites are to dominate the world. Almost all of the Bible was written by Jews and most of the "heroes of faith" in it are Jews. The Bible does not teach "male domination" but does teach that men and women are not identical.
I find it strange that some people think a person has to be exactly the same as another person in order for both of them to be equal.
The Bible teaches equality of both genders but does not pretend that there are no gender differences or that the genders were meant to fulfill the exact same biological, social, or spiritual roles.
Women were equipped to bear children. Men were not. This does not mean that women are superior to men.
Women are generally the "glue" that helps hold families together. They are generally more emotional, seek compromise, more intent on relationship building and preservation, ect. This does not mean women are superior to men, it means they were equipped to these things better than men.
Men were given the role of spiritual leadership. This does not mean men are superior to women. It would be rather strange to think that since Obama is the leader of the free world that he is superior to everyone else in the wold. Also, leadership, as God intended, is a place of servanthood, not a place of despotism. A husband is to be a servant of the family, willing to lay down his life for the family. Men in general are larger, stronger, and more aggressive then women. Their role as protector is both physical in nature and spiritual. They are to be the family "priests" as well.
A priest not superior to those he ministers to. The New Testament uses an allegory of the human body to teach that the spiritual leaders are not superior to the those they minister to. The same allegory applies to a husband an wife, who are "one", just as the church is "one." A body cannot function as intended if every member of the body has the same role. Different roles are needed in order for the body to survive and thrive. The members of the body complement and support each other.
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(KJV)
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
Now, for some more teachings regarding gender equality.
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(NIV)
Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
We see a husband and wife are to be united, to be one. There is no competition to see who is superior. There is a design to make man and woman suitable for each other. Man and women are different and the differences are complementary. They are suitable for each other. There is a unity but diversity of "members."
Both man and woman were man in the image of God.
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Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Neither "station" in life, gender, or race implies superiority or inferiority of a person.
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Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
I am rather glad for the differences between men and women. My wife differs from me in more ways than just sexual organs. She is not just a man with ovaries, for which I am thankful. She is my helper and partner and walks side by side with me through my journeys. I depend on her and need her and am so thankful for her. Thank God for a unity of complementary differences.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2011 02:15 PM |
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I can't see any part that says, man and woman are equal in the sense that they SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.
We are not talking about whether man and woman are or should be IDENTICAL, when we say, they are equal. We mean, that no one should have disadvantages because of a gender or racial difference. Equality means equal RIGHTS.
You have to do better than that.
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Brukernavn
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posted December 10, 2011 06:14 PM |
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I can't see any part that says, man and woman are equal in the sense that they SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.
This reminds me of the Muslim argument; the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God, because that exact phrase is not found in the Bible. Having the same "rights" is a modern age term without much substance.
The Scriptures are clear that men and women have the same value, and that's what the argument was about, as far as I could see. I don't have a "right" to give birth to, or breast feed my child, but that does not mean that I am of less value than my wife. We have different roles, but we are still equal in worth.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2011 08:15 PM |
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I can't see any part that says, man and woman are equal in the sense that they SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.
This reminds me of the Muslim argument; the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God, because that exact phrase is not found in the Bible. Having the same "rights" is a modern age term without much substance.
The Scriptures are clear that men and women have the same value, and that's what the argument was about, as far as I could see. I don't have a "right" to give birth to, or breast feed my child, but that does not mean that I am of less value than my wife. We have different roles, but we are still equal in worth.
Yes, sit down, F-.
"Having the same rights is a modern term without much substance."
You, sir, are no woman. No Afro-American, either. That's for sure.
No, the argument is not about VALUE. The argument is about REAL LIFE. If the Bible is so clear-cut about VALUE - why DIDN'T women have the same RIGHTS? Same value, same rights, sounds logical.
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Elodin
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posted December 10, 2011 08:59 PM |
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I can't see any part that says, man and woman are equal in the sense that they SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.
We are not talking about whether man and woman are or should be IDENTICAL, when we say, they are equal. We mean, that no one should have disadvantages because of a gender or racial difference. Equality means equal RIGHTS.
You have to do better than that.
First, what you originally implied was that the Bible teaches racial inequality and gender inequality. I proved that premise to be utterly and completely false.
The Bible in fact teaches every person is equal regardless of race, gender, or station in life.
Second, as I already stated, Jesus did not come to start a political revolution. He specifically stated his kingdom is not of this world. Rome ruled the world and Jesus did not get involved in Roman politics to tell them how to govern their empire.
The teaching of the Bible is that everyone is equal. That implies that all people should be treated equally. Jesus's teaching was that we should treat all people with love. That is equal treatment.
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Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
There, I have proven the New Testament not only teaches that all people are equal, but says to to treat all people equally and not to show favoritism (not to discriminate.)
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2011 09:26 PM |
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Yeah, very funny.
But that you should LOVE thy neighbour as yourself doesn't actually say much, does it.
Especially when you consider that SELF-love is pretty frowned upon.
In any case, I STILL don't see much about equal rights.
Example: children.
We - USUALLY - love our children, maybe even MORE than ourselves. But strangely, they don't have the same rights than adults, and they are not treated like adults.
So FAIRLY OBVIOUSLY, this command of Jesus's does is no way say anything about equal rights or equality. It allows FAIRLY OBVIOUSLY to treat "people" differently, provided you "find" a "good" reasoning_ for example, that men are the "spiritual leaders" when it comes to comparison with women - that rubbish alone makes this a farce. Never has a claim been sillier.
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Elodin
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posted December 10, 2011 10:12 PM |
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Yeah, very funny.
But that you should LOVE thy neighbour as yourself doesn't actually say much, does it.
Especially when you consider that SELF-love is pretty frowned upon.
In any case, I STILL don't see much about equal rights.
Sorry, but the Bible says to love everyone and to treat everyone equally.
Oh, and the Bible says you are to love yourself (read my previous post.) Self-love is not wrong. Selfishness is wrong. Loving your self above all else is wrong.
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We - USUALLY - love our children, maybe even MORE than ourselves. But strangely, they don't have the same rights than adults, and they are not treated like adults.
Children are not adults. They can't be afforded all the privileges of an adult because they are not mature enough to handle it. Anyone who thinks a 3 year old child should be allowed to drive a car down the freeway is an idiot. Anyone who thinks a 3 year old should be allowed to carry around a loaded firearm is an idiot. Anyone who thinks a 3 year old should be allowed to be president of the US is an idiot. Anyone who thinks a 3 year old should have voting rights is an idiot.
Children must be parented. Children of all races and both genders should be treated equally. When they become adults they should be treated like all other adults.
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So FAIRLY OBVIOUSLY, this command of Jesus's does is no way say anything about equal rights or equality.
You seem to have a rather difficult time comprehending the English language. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" implies equal treatment. The verses in James that comment on that teaching specifically state not to discriminate against others, as I have quoted.
Again, Jesus had no earthly political kingdom and thus did not address political rights. You are not going to find the exact phrase "equal rights" but you find commandments to treat everyone equally.
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It allows FAIRLY OBVIOUSLY to treat "people" differently, provided you "find" a "good" reasoning_ for example, that men are the "spiritual leaders" when it comes to comparison with women - that rubbish alone makes this a farce. Never has a claim been sillier.
Your apparent idea that in order for the genders to be equal they have to have identical biological, social, and spiritual roles is bizarre. Women have the child bearing role. That does not make them superior. Men have the role of spiritual leadership, that does not make them superior to women. Obama is not superior to all other people in the free world just because he is the leader of the free world.
Gender distinction does not mean gender inequality.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2011 10:25 PM |
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You seem to have a rather difficult time comprehending the English language.
You, on the other hand seem to have a rather difficult time comprehending most everything your command of said language should enable you to comprehend: the Bible, logic, human rights, equality.
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