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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 10, 2011 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
Anyone who thinks a 3 year old should be allowed to be president of the US is an idiot.
Bad example, considering people who are competing for that position right now.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 10:43 PM |
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anyone who thinks he can be the president is an idiot 
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 10, 2011 10:56 PM |
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In my honest opinion, I believe Elodin has presented/defended his case quite admirably.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 11:36 PM |
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I think, we are all waiting eagerly for the punchline of that statement.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 10, 2011 11:40 PM |
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Guys, you've done a good job of keeping the discussion civil thus far. Let's not wade into the waters of name calling and finger pointing. That includes accusing people of not being able to read.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 11:56 PM |
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Guys, you've done a good job of keeping the discussion civil thus far. Let's not wade into the waters of name calling and finger pointing. That includes accusing people of not being able to read.
Well, I wouldn't make THAT an accusation. And I'm quite sure that wasn't the accusation either.
Anyway.
Elodin said:
Quote:
Children are not adults.
...
Children must be parented.
But women are not children. And there are those who ARE adults.
STILL, they have been parented. Spiritually. Politically. Matrimonially. Sexually. Emotionally. Religiously. YOU. NAME. IT.
You have of course an explanation for that, I presume?
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted December 11, 2011 01:28 AM |
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In my honest opinion, I believe Elodin has presented/defended his case quite admirably.
Oddly, I have to agree. 
Good job Elodin. We finally managed to agree on something... people twist religion for their own benefit, and such people cannot be called true followers of the religion they twist.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 01:44 AM |
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then no one can be a true follower of a religion. because we view things subjectively 
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted December 11, 2011 01:45 AM |
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Yes, sit down, F-.
"Having the same rights is a modern term without much substance."
You, sir, are no woman. No Afro-American, either. That's for sure.
No, I'm not, but if you're implying that I know nothing of discrimination, I can tell you that I'm a Christian half-Arab that has lived in Israel. I know much of discrimination first hand. So get down from that judgmental high horse.
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No, the argument is not about VALUE. The argument is about REAL LIFE. If the Bible is so clear-cut about VALUE - why DIDN'T women have the same RIGHTS? Same value, same rights, sounds logical.
Because the Romans were in charge at that time. The Bible has nothing to do with what rights women had in the Roman Empire, it teaches separation of Church and state.
For instance, a woman was not always allowed to witness in court (according to the pagan state). But the first witnesses of the empty tomb were women.
You seem to be confusing the teachings of the Bible with the political environment of the time.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 09:35 AM |
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Not to the point and untrue at that. While women in ancient Rome had not equal rights, they had more rights than women in acient Greece, the Middle Ages and early to middle Modern Times.
For the time THEN, the Roman woman was MOST emancipated.
And while Rome was the reigning power, Rome didn't fiddle with the local customs. How the Jews would generally treat their women, was theirs, polizically their would only have been a problem when the locals would have given their women MORE rights than Rome, then Rome would have had last say, obviously.
But the question isn't what was in Rome. The question is, why women were (and are) treated so miserably in the lands were the monotheistic religions ruled, if the Bible teaches equality.
And should you be certain that the Bible does teach equality, then you may ask yourself the question why equality doesn't mean equal rights.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 11, 2011 02:26 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:33, 11 Dec 2011.
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But women are not children. And there are those who ARE adults.
STILL, they have been parented. Spiritually. Politically. Matrimonially. Sexually. Emotionally. Religiously. YOU. NAME. IT.
You have of course an explanation for that, I presume?
Yes, my exhortation is that pagans, agnostics, and atheists need to shape up and treat women better.  The Bible teaches a husband is to be a husband to his wife, not a father to his wife. I can't imagine why a husband would want to parent his wife. Fantasys of incest? Some pagans may think incest is ok but Christians don't.
Quote:
But the question isn't what was in Rome. The question is, why women were (and are) treated so miserably in the lands were the monotheistic religions ruled, if the Bible teaches equality.
And should you be certain that the Bible does teach equality, then you may ask yourself the question why equality doesn't mean equal rights.
I won't answer for Islam because Islam does not follow the Bible. But I'll call you to answer for all lands of unbelievers. In particular lands of atheism. What is up with atheist leaders like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, ect who were responsible for the deaths of more than 250 million people in the past 100 years? Why is it when atheists gain politcal power over a nation there are so many mass murders and denial of basic human rights? Atheists always claim it is theism that produces all the problems, so why have atheists always done worse than theists in ruling nations?
I already proved what the Bible teaches by quoting the Bible and refuting your false statements about it so there is no "if the Bible teaches..."  The Bible teaches to treat all people with love and not to discriminate against anyone.
The US was founded by Christians on Christian principles, sure, the founders were not perfect, but from the US freedom has spread around the world. Heck, the US has has to kick atheist butts to spread freedom in many places. If the US had not won the cold war most of the world would likely be under the iron fisted rule of an atheistic USSR regime.
Maybe you can tell me why every officially atheist nation is always a cesspool of mass murder and denial of basic human rights? In the US Declaration of Independence the founders declared all men are created equal, just like the Bible teaches. Governments founded on the concept that there is no god have always treated people like crap, to be honest. Why is that? Sure, it took the US a little while to throw off the shackles of slavery that Europe had introduced but in the US people now have more rights than anywhere else in the world. The US is the nation most sought out by immigrants.
The Christian west advanced so much further than the rest of the world precisely because of Christianity. Sometimes people in charge have made bad decisions or pretended to be Christian but were not. Certainly America has not always in every situation acted according to Christian principles. But that is due to humans sinning or due to wolves in sheeps clothing, not to a failure in what the Bible teaches.
If everyone followed the teachings of Jesus to love God and their neighbor the world would be a paradise. Don't blame Christianity when someone who claims to be a Christian does not live up to Christian teachings. Some are pretenders and of course no Christian is perfect.
Again, Jesus did not start a political kingdom. You won't find the phrase "equal rights" in the Bible. But the command to treat everyone with love and not to discriminate against anyone IS equal rights and IS EVEN A HIGHER STANDARD THAN "EQUAL RIGHTS." "Equal rights" in the US for instance is not a call for you to love everyone, just for everyone to be treated equally by the law. Jesus said mere equal treatment is not enough. Treating everyone with love is required.
So the Bible's standard of treatment for everyone is a higher standard than any nation requires. No nation requires that you actually love everyone.
____________
Revelation
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2011 03:54 PM |
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Word counts 604 words in that post (without the quotes). 604 words that don't say anything to the point or new. No question answered. Nothing.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 11, 2011 05:28 PM |
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And you follow it up with 25 words that say even less. Are you trying to test my patience, JJ?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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markkur
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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 11, 2011 05:42 PM |
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...A HIGHER STANDARD
When I came to the Bible, the first years I was all about "Law" (Man's law) in some form or another. e.g. Like everyone esle, I could see that 55-mph was the posted speed limit but still hit 65-mph at times and that depended on the visible road ahead. Btw, I was not always successful with that strategy In short I viewed Laws as tools. Laws that I valued I keep, ones that were iffy; I sometimes would not, depending on circumstances. Boiled-down it was my interpretation of the Law that ruled my decisions.
<imo> There is indeed a visible conflict between OT and NT and that difference is my Lord.
Zeroing-in on women, I'll give two examples of "Higher Standards"
The first all should know; a harlot is about to be stoned. The law stated it was not only allowed but demanded this to be the punishment. This foul woman was about to be stoned to death. What did Jesus say to the eh...self-righteous-mob? "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" {John 8:7} In the next verse, he wrote something on the ground. There is no proof as to what was written but I venture it was not a smiley face. The clear evidance here is that Jesus looked upon this woman with equal compassion. Her sex, the Jewish-Elite, nor the OT law stood in his way...or her escape route from that life. This was life and death here in more ways than one.
The second point is about "woman and marriage".
In Matthew 5 Christ starts with the Beatitudes as they are called, the BE-THIS of Christianity. About midway in this wonderful instruction we find "Divorce" in verses 31&32. Woman ARE a part of this sacred bond and cannot be dismissed unless they have already divorced their husbands in their hearts, as evidenced by the word "unchastity". That holds true the other way too and no law is needed to force this on me. The Lord's own may be His sheep but they are not sheep to the notions-whims of this world.
In {Mark-Ch.10}there is an additonal account of Jesus speaking about the bond of marriage. It was not understood then and few understand the spiritual depth of it now. Laws and hardened hearts prevailed then and do so now. Notice a comment that quickly follows his teaching on marriage; (verse 15} "Truly I say to you, whoever does not recieve the Kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all". I added this passage to my example, because the Bible has recorded events that should be merged. When a traffic-accident happens, the officials look for all testimonies to attempt to put together the best picture of what happened.
Comments have been made that woman were not a part of Christ's first core-group. That's true but very quickly as the church began to grow women were in important roles. At the beginning of any change; I don't think would be wise to take a opponent's position and then slap he/she in the face. That's war and not peace. Btw, there are some scholars that put forth Priscilla as an author of one of the epistles (letters)but that's another matter.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted December 11, 2011 06:13 PM |
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I see we are having severe misunderstandings in this discussion, namely Elodin confuses two terms all the time, so I've decided to make a simple chart that underlines the differences between them.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
BATMAN
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 06:41 PM |
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Quote:
And you follow it up with 25 words that say even less. Are you trying to test my patience, JJ?
What are you trying to tell me? That I'm not allowed to phrase my displeasure about a polemic general nothing of a post that counts 604 words?
Let's see:
Quote:
pagans, agnostics, and atheists need to shape up and treat women better. The Bible teaches a husband is to be a husband to his wife, not a father to his wife. I can't imagine why a husband would want to parent his wife. Fantasys of incest? Some pagans may think incest is ok but Christians don't.
Is that an answer to the question why Christian dominated world did oppress and discriminate women?
Quote:
What is up with atheist leaders like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, ect who were responsible for the deaths of more than 250 million people in the past 100 years? Why is it when atheists gain politcal power over a nation there are so many mass murders and denial of basic human rights? Atheists always claim it is theism that produces all the problems, so why have atheists always done worse than theists in ruling nations?
Is that an answer to the question why equality doesn't mean equal rights?
Quote:
The US was founded by ... the US has has to kick atheist butts to spread freedom in many places... If the US had not won the cold war... under the iron fisted rule of the atheistic USSR regime.
Maybe you can tell me why every officially atheist nation is always a cesspool of mass murder and denial of basic human rights? In the US Declaration of Independence the founders declared all men are created equal, just like the Bible teaches. Governments founded on the concept that there is no god have always treated people like crap, to be honest. Why is that? Sure, it took the US a little while to throw off the shackles of slavery that Europe had introduced but in the US people now have more rights than anywhere else in the world. The US is the nation most sought out by immigrants.
You can certainly tell me what that has to do with oppression of women?
Quote:
The Christian west advanced so much further than the rest of the world precisely because of Christianity. Sometimes people in charge have made bad decisions or pretended to be Christian but were not. Certainly America has not always in every situation acted according to Christian principles. But that is due to humans sinning or due to wolves in sheeps clothing, not to a failure in what the Bible teaches.
Or that?
If everyone followed the teachings of Jesus to love God and their neighbor the world would be a paradise. Don't blame Christianity when someone who claims to be a Christian does not live up to Christian teachings. Some are pretenders and of course no Christian is perfect.
Or that?
Quote:
Again, Jesus did not start a political kingdom. You won't find the phrase "equal rights" in the Bible. But the command to treat everyone with love and not to discriminate against anyone IS equal rights and IS EVEN A HIGHER STANDARD THAN "EQUAL RIGHTS." "Equal rights" in the US for instance is not a call for you to love everyone, just for everyone to be treated equally by the law. Jesus said mere equal treatment is not enough. Treating everyone with love is required.
So the Bible's standard of treatment for everyone is a higher standard than any nation requires. No nation requires that you actually love everyone.
Or that?
So what the hell are you trying to tell me?
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baklava
Honorable
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posted December 11, 2011 06:57 PM |
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^ Is that an answer to "are you trying to test my patience, JJ"?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 11, 2011 10:07 PM |
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The Bible teaches to treat all people with love and not to discriminate against anyone (violin playing in background).
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But the command to treat everyone with love and not to discriminate against anyone (violin playing in background)
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So the Bible's standard of treatment for everyone is a higher standard than any nation requires. No nation requires that you actually love everyone.(violin playing in background)
=
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The Bible says in Israel prostitutes were to be stoned (real stone sounds this time).
Well, for once you have to acknowledge that atheist nations do better than Christianity. We don't kill prostitutes.
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disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
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posted December 11, 2011 10:31 PM |
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Religion is war!
Religion is a story!
Religion is crap!
Just leave the snow!
(I'm do not believe in god, but you may have noticed that by now)
I have just one single question to you believers:
Prove its real! No one in history have ever proven that any of the religions are true!, Why do believe in it?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 11:00 PM |
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Quote:
I have just one single question to you believers:
Prove its real! No one in history have ever proven that any of the religions are true!, Why do believe in it?
Yeah I really don't get how so many people can believe in religions that were created 3000 years ago, when humans have existed for over 200,000 thousand years. Makes no sense.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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This thread is pages long: 
