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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 31, 2013 10:01 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:41, 31 Jul 2013.
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No, I linked his book and what I quoted is explained with verses of the Bible in there. I kept the quote short because we were asked to. The book is there for anyone to download and check. And I'm pretty sure a New Testament scholar wouldn't misquote the Bible and attempt career suicide. You are objecting to a book you havent read.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 16, 2013 06:04 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 18:28, 16 Aug 2013.
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This goes for theists(Since you cannot imagine a world without god):
What if god is an evil being?
The reason behind this questions is that I came a across some disturbing historical truths, like people being disemboweled, being burned alive, killed in a brass bull and other unimaginable horrors. Those tortures make dying by a gun look like mercy.
No matter the influence of religion, good or bad, these things did happen and do so today aswell, sometimes in the name of god, monarch or treachery.
Reports of soviet traitors being burned alive in crematoriums, women being burned at stake in africa for witchcraft, people being burned at stake in public in North Korea,US guantanamo bay tortures(Various) and many other horrors that I dont know off.
So, regarding these "Human" deeds, how would a theist explain these?
Some of these tortures were conducted by both theists and atheists(Soviets,North Koreans).
Maybe an off topic question, but what would justify such tortures? I cannot comprehend why somebody would do such things. Surely, a benevolent god would do something to prevent "Mutilation" or painful death of innocent victims, but that has yet to happen.
For those being burned alive, their saving grace was that if there was a lot of fire, they would lose consciousness because of CO2, even though I dont believe that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 16, 2013 06:06 PM |
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You miss the main point, a theist can not kill unless in self defense. If he commits murder, he is not theist, but atheist. Comfortable idea.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 16, 2013 06:33 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 18:36, 16 Aug 2013.
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Salamandre said:
You miss the main point, a theist can not kill unless in self defense. If he commits murder, he is not theist, but atheist. Comfortable idea.
Yep, I know that one. But that would mean that throughout history, only "Atheists" were in charge of goverments, churches, mosques, castles and so on. The interesting thing is that torture is a global phenomenon. Every country, culture and state of historical relevance has employed torture.
I know the freewill argument, I know the christian argument. But would that mean that "satan" or atheists have been in charge all the time? What happened to real christians? Why is it so that of all human history, torture, war and so on has been a thing that never got old?
Is life the domain of "Satan" but afterlife the domain of God?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 16, 2013 06:42 PM |
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Religion is never questionable. Not even 1%. If the book says christians can't kill, you don't extrapolate around and try to find flaws, you accept it as permanent and indelible truth, then defend that argument nails and fangs out.
This is why any discussion with theists (the most annoying category of them at least) is driving me nuts, there is no discussion, but one way brainwash.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 16, 2013 07:04 PM |
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Why is the luxury? Dawkins has been criticised about overlooking the motivations of faith, but the really simple question still stands. Why is faith in BS not treated like faith in BS? Although, I sometimes think he imagines too much of a world without religion, I like the simplicity of his question/objection:
This
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 16, 2013 07:22 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 19:24, 16 Aug 2013.
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Salamandre said:
Religion is never questionable. Not even 1%. If the book says christians can't kill, you don't extrapolate around and try to find flaws, you accept it as permanent and indelible truth, then defend that argument nails and fangs out.
This is why any discussion with theists (the most annoying category of them at least) is driving me nuts, there is no discussion, but one way brainwash.
Well, you are right, I cant disagree with that.
Here are some other questions:
Is it allowed to torture a "Murderer" in christianity?
Is it a sin to torture in chirstianity?
I know islam and hindusim has no problem with torture because its not hard to miss news of the occasional stoning or mutilation.
And reports in africa for female witchhunts and mutiliation of women by Christians are also on the news. OK, I say they maybe extremes.
Anyone?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 16, 2013 07:40 PM |
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No, it's not OK to torture in Christianity, there's no question about it, Christians are instructed to love even their enemies. The inquisitioners were, how should I put it, wolves in sheep clothing.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 16, 2013 07:50 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 19:53, 16 Aug 2013.
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Drakon-Deus said:
No, it's not OK to torture in Christianity, there's no question about it, Christians are instructed to love even their enemies. The inquisitioners were, how should I put it, wolves in sheep clothing.
Quote:
God has appointed civil governments and charged them with maintaining justice in this world (Romans 13:1-5). “For [the ruler] is God's servant to do you good . . . an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer” (verse 4). Elsewhere, God calls judges and magistrates “gods”; that is, their authority to provide justice comes from God Himself (Psalm 82:1-4). If they fail in their duty, they will themselves be judged by the Lord, the Judge of all (verses 7-8).
So government bears the responsibility to protect the good and punish the evil. What methods may it employ in carrying out that responsibility? Beyond the endorsement of capital punishment (Romans 13:4; Genesis 9:6), the Bible does not say. The Bible neither condemns nor condones a government’s use of torture.
source:http://www.gotquestions.org/torture-Bible.html
So the executioners and torturers can be christian, despite Elodin's logic of "No christian can ever harm somebody". Well they can.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 16, 2013 08:39 PM |
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I think Elodin clarified this issue, is allowed for a christian to be the hand of the state wrath.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 16, 2013 08:48 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I think Elodin clarified this issue, is allowed for a christian to be the hand of the state wrath.
Well, I should make a habit of searching questions like these online instead of posting here.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 16, 2013 09:10 PM |
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Those are men's twisted interpretations, Jesus put it super simple:
Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you.
As a Christian I have no right to torture anyone, no matter what the "government" says.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted August 16, 2013 10:38 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Those are men's twisted interpretations, Jesus put it super simple:
Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you.
As a Christian I have no right to torture anyone, no matter what the "government" says.
Are you not just a Jesus fan then? You can like Jesus a lot and follow his teachings without being a christian.
My ancestors burned innocent women as witches but nobody here has the right to say they were not real christians.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 16, 2013 10:39 PM |
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Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. If they didn't follow his commandments, they were not real Christians.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted August 16, 2013 11:06 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. If they didn't follow his commandments, they were not real Christians.
I am pretty sure that people from hundreds of years ago were much closer to God and Jesus than some corrupt modern christian posers will ever be.
Jesus and the Interpreter. A modern-day christian helps Jesus get started
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 17, 2013 01:56 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:57, 17 Aug 2013.
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seraphim said:
So the executioners and torturers can be christian, despite Elodin's logic of "No christian can ever harm somebody". Well they can.
You have falsely stated my position.
I have repeatedly said for example a Christian can kill in self defense. The Bible specifically says if someone breaks into your house and you kill him in your house you are not a murderer and shall not be punished. But if you tracked the invader down the next day and killed him you'd be a murderer.
Both the Old and New Testament say personal vengeance is sin but that the state has the power and obligation to execute evildoers.
No Christian be a murderer. A Christian can kill in self defense. A Christian can kill as a soldier. A Christian can kill as a law enforcement officer to defend himself or others. A Christian can execute criminals if he is for instance a warden in a prison tasked with doing such.
I do not find torture to be wrong in certain situations. For example, to extract information from a known kidnapper to save a kidnapped victim or to extract information from a terrorist to determine the location of a nuclear bomb that could kill millions in a large city like Houston or New York.
The New Testament specifically says the state has the power of the sword and that it is to be a terror to evildoers. As I've said numerous times.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 17, 2013 10:30 AM |
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It's obvious that morale and necessity do not fit well.
The self-defence idea, for example, is completely arbitrary. Keep in mind, we are not instinct-driven beings, we can think, plan, reason, extrapolate the future and so on. Defense on a larger level is certainly not dealt with in such a way that "if we are attacked IN OUR HOME we will call to arms".
Defending yourself in case of a direct attack on you or your home is what animals would do.
But what if someone THREATENS you? Harrasses you? Terrorize even: phone calls, following you, no matter. There is no "rule" how to deal with willfull evil. Rules and morales are somewhat rational and based on certain assumptions, a lot of which are invalid when it comes to the human mind and what it is capable of.
If you ARE threatened - let's say someone feels mistreated by you and is extremely pissed - you don't have many options. If you are rich you can try and use your money to hire serious protection, but that's it. Go to the police and tell them, I'm threatened?
So obviously everything depends on your assessment how serious the threat is. If it includes your wife and children, it would seem that the bets are off, because you would seem to have a lot to lose. Why wait until disaster strikes?
The same is true for the power of the state. It's not clear what constituates reason enough to send your people into a war and kill. Are there "just" wars on other countries's soil? Does that question even makes sense?
Also there are lose-lose situations when whatever you do or not do will result in pain and sorrow.
In other words - this whole "a Christian does this, but not that" is complete nonsense, because a thing can be viewed from a ton of perspectives, and if you dig deep enough and turn the thing often enough, black becomes white and white becomes black.
If a person is CONVINCED that what they do is the RIGHT thing (and not evil at all), then all this arguing is irrelevant. If you are convinced that the destruction of a person's body is good when it will save his or her soul, then you are doing what you consider to be the right thing, whether your interpretation of what god, Jesus or the Bible commands or allows you to do is considered wrong by others or not. It's what YOU consider right, and there are at most two instances that you will have to account for your deeds at.
a) the worldly law. if what you did was against the law and you will be caught, then you will get tried ans eventually sentenced (or not)
b) the "final judgement" - purely hypothetical and based on the assumption that there will be something like that - but THAT is obviously something between the person and the judge.
Bottom line is - it's PRESUMPTIOUS to even TRY to divide into people that ARE Christians and people who may say or think so, but are not. You can judge people by their deeds in comparisons with the law, but the judge of whether they ARE true Christians or not is ultimately Christ - therefore the name, by the way.
However:
This goes into both directions: The question: Would a Christian do that or How can a Christian do that mixes two things that don't fit. It's a HUMAN that does things, not a CHRISTIAN, and humans can do a lot of things, even things they know they are wrong, provided they come to their senses and repent - when they happen to be Christians as well as humans.
Let's try and flesh this out with Elodin's comment on how he thinks torture might be not an un-Christian thing to do in certain situations. Note, that I have absolutely no problem with him saying so - but is HIS PERSONAL opinion: if he was in the situation he would do it, having no problem with his Christianity. The point is this: EITHER the law allows it - then his doing is something between himself and his god. Or it doesn't. Then it will either come to light and he might get legal reprecussions, or it won't - then it's again only a thing between him and his god.
Can anyone else now judge whether Elodin is a REAL Christian or not?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 18, 2013 07:16 AM |
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Elodin, what do you make of this:
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
(1 Corinthians 6:12 ESV)
Did Paul really mean that all things, even evil things, are lawful, but he will not give into them? Or what did he mean? I am a bit confused.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 18, 2013 05:58 PM |
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Quote:
Both the Old and New Testament say personal vengeance is sin but that the state has the power and obligation to execute evildoers.
Execution, if we remove the fundamentally un-Christian aspect of satisfaction brought by vengeance, has the sole (dubious) practical purpose of setting an example, preventing future crime through the means of fear of death. That and saving money, because someone has to pay for the criminal's food and shelter.
Taking into account that there is nothing quite as Christian as the principle of repenting, at any point in time, taking the life of a captured and neutralized wrong-doer is something that, even if it was written in red, underlined letters on the cover of every Bible ever printed, could never rationally have anything to do with the essentials of Christianity. I believe that goes for economical reasons for terminating life as well.
Christianity's hard to uphold, sure. But you can't praise a man that spoke about turning the other cheek after being hit and then sign up to preemptively ravage a country on the other side of the world.
Also bear in mind that Christianity came to power as the religion of those who had no means to fight back and were martyred, crucified, eaten in the arena and similar on a regular basis. People see this, and it awakes emotions. At first, a few Romans go, "wait, this isn't right". Then more. Then Nero burns down Rome and blames it on the Christians. Doesn't work. A few centuries later, bam, the Emperor goes Christian. Bam, state religion. If a Christian is thrown in the arena and given a sword to fight against the other gladiators, if he starts killing other gladiators to survive, he is just another slave. He plays along to the show. If he throws away the sword, he sets an example. He changes people. He's a martyr. He's an icon of the Christian world.
That's the tricky bit.
Of course, once an emperor of a superpower embraces your faith and gives you power, things change. You get the ability to fight, the ability turns to responsibility, and you become just another organized religion in just another empire. After a few generations of people born into a time when the Church is powerful, it's only logical to assume that ambitious, power-hungry people will sign up, start misusing the whole thing, bending it to their will, and it all goes to hell until it's replaced with something else. I suppose that'll be every religion's (or ideology's) life cycle for a while. Something Jesus knew perfectly well when he spoke of wolves in sheep's clothing that are to appear after him, waving his words around for their own ends.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 19, 2013 03:13 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:45, 19 Aug 2013.
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JollyJoker said:
Defending yourself in case of a direct attack on you or your home is what animals would do.
It is what any rational person would do if he loves himself and his family.
Quote:
But what if someone THREATENS you? Harrasses you? Terrorize even: phone calls, following you, no matter. There is no "rule" how to deal with willfull evil. Rules and morales are somewhat rational and based on certain assumptions, a lot of which are invalid when it comes to the human mind and what it is capable of.
Sure there is. You act to defend yourself by getting law enforcement involved. Call the cops and fill out a criminal complaint, get a restraining order, ect. And make sure to purchase a gun if you don't already have one.
The Bible says that vengeance is the job of the state, not the individual. You are free to defend yourself against an imminent threat to your life or property but not free to track down a thief the next day and kill him.
Quote:
The same is true for the power of the state. It's not clear what constituates reason enough to send your people into a war and kill. Are there "just" wars on other countries's soil? Does that question even makes sense?
Of course there are just wars on another nations soil. If they are sending invaders to attack you on your soil you will never win the war by just defending. If they are sending terrorists to win blow up bombs in your cities you will find it necessary to invade the offending nation or drop some bombs to make a point. A big point.
Quote:
In other words - this whole "a Christian does this, but not that" is complete nonsense, because a thing can be viewed from a ton of perspectives, and if you dig deep enough and turn the thing often enough, black becomes white and white becomes black.
What is complete, absolute, and utter nonsense is for you to claim that you are the one who defines who is a Christian rather than the Christian holy book (the New Testament) defining who is a Christian.
The Bible states outright that anyone who hates or murders and claims to know God is a liar. Again, the New Testament is the authoritative source of Christian doctrine, not you. A person who has murdered, such as Saul, can become a Christian. But a Christian won't commit murder and won't hate according to the New Testament.
Quote:
Bottom line is - it's PRESUMPTIOUS to even TRY to divide into people that ARE Christians and people who may say or think so, but are not.
Again, your statements contradict what the Bible says. The Bible specifically states some people are deluded who think they are Christian, because they are not. Some others who claim to be Christians are "ravenous wolves"--people who know they are not Christians but who claim to be for malicious purposes.
Jesus said, "You'll know them by their fruit," and "My sheep hear my voice and follow me," and "He who keeps my commandments is the one who loves me."
Quote:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
If a serial killer is on the loose, killing little girls every month, I don't have to scratch my head and wonder if that person is a Christian. The Bible says he is not no matter what words may come out of his mouth.
Jesus said it is not the person who says, "Lord, lord" who will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of God. Lip service means squat.
Quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Quote:
This goes into both directions: The question: Would a Christian do that or How can a Christian do that mixes two things that don't fit. It's a HUMAN that does things, not a CHRISTIAN, and humans can do a lot of things, even things they know they are wrong, provided they come to their senses and repent - when they happen to be Christians as well as humans.
True Christians (people who have been born again, as Jesus put it) are not "mere" humans. Born again people are a "new race" in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the "second Adam" of the new race and we are his children.
A true Christin has the Spirit of Jesus living in him and that Spirit prevents the Christian from certain things. Murder and hate are things that a Christian is incapable of committing. A true Christian has experienced a REAL change in his life and is continuing to be transformed as he cooperates with the Spirit of God.
Remember that the moral core of Christianity according to Jesus is two things. Love God with all that you are and love your fellow man as yourself.
Quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
People who reject the very core principles of Christianity simply are not Christians.
MOD EDIT: Formatting fixed for readability.
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