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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 19, 2013 03:41 AM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Elodin, what do you make of this:
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
(1 Corinthians 6:12 ESV)
Did Paul really mean that all things, even evil things, are lawful, but he will not give into them? Or what did he mean? I am a bit confused.
No, in fact he is saying the opposite. There are no quotation marks in koine Greek, from which 1 Corinthians was translated. Much of 1 Corinthians is devoted to saying there is no "license to sin." Certain people in the Corinthian congregation were saying "Oh, Paul said 'all things are lawful' about eating stuff and, well, sexual desires are a form of appetite so everything sexual we want to do is ok too.'"
Meat was created for the belly. Something being offered to an idol does not change that. Paul had dealt with eating things offered to an idol and said it is ok to it because idols are in actuality nothing but stone and sticks. Meat was created for the belly but the body was not created for fornication.
Please refer to: ( 1 Corinthians 8:8 , Romans 14:14 Romans 14:17 ; compare 7:18 Colossians 2:20-22.)
Let me quote the passage in a more modern translation, the NIV. You will see phrases in quotation marks. Those are quotations from a letter the Corinthians had written to Paul and Paul is writing the epistle of 1 Corinthians to address things that were said in their letter to him.
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12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Paul is not saying everything is ok in verse 12. He is saying. Look, even if everything were ok everything is not beneficial for you.
Paul then explicitly says that the human body is not meant for sexual morality but to use in worship and service to God.
In chapter 7 Paul continues to deal with sexual issues and talks about the moral duties of husband and wife to each other in sexual matters.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 19, 2013 06:55 AM |
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I see, I didn't know about the meaning of the quotation marks in that verse. Thank you.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 19, 2013 07:41 AM |
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Quote:
The Bible says that vengeance is the job of the state, not the individual.
I thought you were all about justice, not vengeance? Interesting lapsus...
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Meat was created for the belly but the body was not created for fornication.
So, although you stated that the body of man and woman are obviously created for each other in the homosexuality thread, we must also assume that they are not created for fornication? But I guess, you'll say marriage is holy and stuff... But then to say MEAT is created, I guess that is a stretch too, cows and ducks are created FOR US to kill them. But why not simply create them as meat or at least creatures without any feeling of pain? It all seems like trying to fit a specific set of traditions into a dogmatic state of creation.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 08:30 AM |
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Quote:
why not simply create them as meat or at least creatures without any feeling of pain?
[Christian mode]Who are you to question God? He works in mysterious ways. When you were a child, you didn't always understand why your parents did what they did, but (assuming you had at least decent parents) you would've been wrong to tell them that you, a child, know better than them. Just as children are often ignorant of their parents' designs, so are we, the children of God, ignorant of the designs of our Father. What's worse, even if we understand the design, we may easily be mistaken about its goodness. God is ommibenevolent, so when it seems to us that his design is wrong, it is we who are wrong, not Him.[/Christian mode]
(The Christian God is essentially a Lovecraftian deity.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 19, 2013 12:35 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:56, 19 Aug 2013.
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The mantis shrimp is a Lovecraftian deity. God is just watching what you're typing right now and going, "have you twats ever heard of evolution?"
MOD EDIT: Put in a link to the real source, not a plagiarized version.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 19, 2013 12:48 PM |
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mvassilev said:
(The Christian God is essentially a Lovecraftian deity.)
Azathoth?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 03:04 PM |
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Elodin, you missed the point, yet again:
Elodin said:
JollyJoker said:
In other words - this whole "a Christian does this, but not that" is complete nonsense, because a thing can be viewed from a ton of perspectives, and if you dig deep enough and turn the thing often enough, black becomes white and white becomes black.
What is complete, absolute, and utter nonsense is for you to claim that you are the one who defines who is a Christian rather than the Christian holy book (the New Testament) defining who is a Christian.
The Bible states outright that anyone who hates or murders and claims to know God is a liar. Again, the New Testament is the authoritative source of Christian doctrine, not you. A person who has murdered, such as Saul, can become a Christian. But a Christian won't commit murder and won't hate according to the New Testament.
It may well be, that the Bible says something like that - but it fails to define what actually constitutes "hate" and "murder" in any objective sense.
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Bottom line is - it's PRESUMPTIOUS to even TRY to divide into people that ARE Christians and people who may say or think so, but are not.
Again, your statements contradict what the Bible says. The Bible specifically states some people are deluded who think they are Christian, because they are not. Some others who claim to be Christians are "ravenous wolves"--people who know they are not Christians but who claim to be for malicious purposes.
That may be as well - but it's STILL presumptuous of you to imply YOU would be able to determine who is and who is not, and in any authoritative way. It is also presumptuous to imply YOU would be the expert on Bible interpretation and anyone else who doesn't agree with you, would be wrong. Lastly it's presumptuous to judge people based on that - with a view on being a true Christian or not, how would YOU know that? Based on what YOU define as hate and murder and what you ASSUME people think and do?
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True Christians (people who have been born again, as Jesus put it) are not "mere" humans. Born again people are a "new race" in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the "second Adam" of the new race and we are his children.
A true Christin has the Spirit of Jesus living in him and that Spirit prevents the Christian from certain things. Murder and hate are things that a Christian is incapable of committing. A true Christian has experienced a REAL change in his life and is continuing to be transformed as he cooperates with the Spirit of God.
Yeah, yeah, sure. A pity, that new race hasn't managed to leave a lasting impression, before it got extinct due to natural selection.
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Remember that the moral core of Christianity according to Jesus is two things. Love God with all that you are and love your fellow man as yourself.
I can see your new race of über-humans lovingly killing their foes on foreign battlefields, instead of shooting them with hate in their heart. Doubtlessly a big improvement for all of humanity.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 19, 2013 03:10 PM |
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artu said:
Quote:
The Bible says that vengeance is the job of the state, not the individual.
I thought you were all about justice, not vengeance? Interesting lapsus...
Your little personal jab makes not the slightest bit of sense.
The Bible says it is ok to defend yourself. The Bible says it is not ok to take vengeance by tracking someone down and killing them once you are out of danger.
Leave "vengeance" for the state. It is the state's job to be a "terror" to evildoers and to use the "power of the sword" to put down evil according to the New Testament.
No lapse there.
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Meat was created for the belly but the body was not created for fornication.
So, although you stated that the body of man and woman are obviously created for each other in the homosexuality thread, we must also assume that they are not created for fornication?
You are evidently ignorant of the meaning of the word fornication. Fornication is illicit sex. Sex outside of marriage when neiter person is marriage. Sex is intended in the context of marriage only.
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But I guess, you'll say marriage is holy and stuff... But then to say MEAT is created, I guess that is a stretch too, cows and ducks are created FOR US to kill them. But why not simply create them as meat or at least creatures without any feeling of pain? It all seems like trying to fit a specific set of traditions into a dogmatic state of creation.
Yes, marriage is holy. Marriage is God's idea from the beginning. Jesus said God's intention was one man and one woman.
No, it is not a stretch to say the the animal kingdom is intended for man's benefit. God gave man dominion over the animals and gave animals to man for food.
You never seem to have the foggiest idea at all about what the Bible teaches but you constantly attack it and rail against everything I say. The only one trying to "fit a specific set of traditions" is you.
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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
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Revelation
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 19, 2013 03:37 PM |
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I must repeat I have no "personal jab" against you. I only have that against people who troll, that is, people who does not actually mean things they say or defend but write just to get attention. I think you are plain wrong on almost everything you say but I believe in your sincerity while saying those things. It's true that your arguments sometimes drive me nuts but that's not because I have a grudge against you, it's just that the arguments are so...
On the word fornication you are right, I thought it meant any sexual intercourse, turns out it means sexual intercourse out of wedlock only. Sorry, English not my mother tongue etc etc... Replace the word fornication with "sexual intercourse" and the post still stands. Everything in your answer is what I said will be in your answer anyway, so I guess I do have the foggiest idea what the Bible teaches.
Just one thing though, cause this may actually lead somewhere:
Do you think there is a conceptual difference between vengeance and justice? That is,
Is justice served when vengeance is done?
OR
Is justice about giving up on the feeling of vengeance and balancing things out just for the sake of Godly order?
IF vengeance is a hateful feeling (and it is), it must be ungodly, right? I mean isn't it all about love? Then why does state seek vengeance instead of justice?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 19, 2013 03:37 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
It may well be, that the Bible says something like that - but it fails to define what actually constitutes "hate" and "murder" in any objective sense.
First, God does not play word games with anyone. The Bible is not for anyone who pretends they can't understand what "hate" means. The Bible is for those who WANT to know the truth, not those seeking to twist, turn, and avoid the truth.
Second, the Bible defines murder as "lying in wait" for someone and killing them. Deliberate killing or killing that resulted from willful violence against an innocent person. You'll even find that same Biblical phrase used in many US laws.
Quote:
That may be as well - but it's STILL presumptuous of you to imply YOU would be able to determine who is and who is not, and in any authoritative way.
No, it is not presumptious of me to say I can do what Jesus said I can do.
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It is also presumptuous to imply YOU would be the expert on Bible interpretation and anyone else who doesn't agree with you, would be wrong.
The Bible says anyone who hates or murders and claims to know God is a liar. It is NOT presumptious of me to say that anyone who claims to know God but who hates or murders is a liar.
Some atheists love to claim every verse in the Bible can mean absolutely anything. But words have meaning. Anyone who hates or murders and says he knows God is a liar.
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Lastly it's presumptuous to judge people based on that - with a view on being a true Christian or not, how would YOU know that? Based on what YOU define as hate and murder and what you ASSUME people think and do?
I just say what the Bible says, dude. It is not like "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" is full of hard to understand symbolism that takes a lifetime of study to understand.
If you say you don't understand what hate is and have no clue about what murder is then the Bible simply is not intended for you.
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I can see your new race of über-humans lovingly killing their foes on foreign battlefields, instead of shooting them with hate in their heart. Doubtlessly a big improvement for all of humanity.
The church is not a political kingdom and has no army.
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Revelation
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 19, 2013 04:11 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 01:26, 20 Aug 2013.
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I was hoping for a reply on the executions thing, El. I'm interested in an opposing (but Christian) point of view on those.
Also,
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The church is not a political kingdom and has no army.
Sure it does. It's just silly.
And, Corribus,
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"have you twats ever heard of evolution
The question and quotation marks at the end of that sentence were completely innocent, yet were turned to dust in an instant, as collateral damage in the wake of your callous American imperialist moderating. I managed to rebuild them from scratch this time, but should my punctuation be ravaged again, I will have to resort to more radical measures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MOD EDIT: Sure, whatever you say, bak, won't happen again. 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 19, 2013 04:18 PM |
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Quote:
Sure it does. It's just silly.
When he says the Church, he does not mean Roman Catholic Church.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 04:21 PM |
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Oh, please, Elodin. For someone who tells a lot about how simple the Bible is to understand you seem to have a lot of trouble answering to the point:
Elodin said:
JollyJoker said:
It may well be, that the Bible says something like that - but it fails to define what actually constitutes "hate" and "murder" in any objective sense.
First, God does not play word games with anyone. The Bible is not for anyone who pretends they can't understand what "hate" means. The Bible is for those who WANT to know the truth, not those seeking to twist, turn, and avoid the truth.
Dude, there isn't EITHER hate OR love - there is a whole lot in between, like dislike and like, and all kinds of negative feelings against others that are NOT hate - but still negative. You do not have to HATE a person to murder them, and you can have a lot of negative feelings for people without actually HATING them.
So how would YOU know whether a person actually HATES another person, and how would said person KNOW, whether the feeling toward another guy is actually HATE (and not something else)?
Quote:
Second, the Bible defines murder as "lying in wait" for someone and killing them. Deliberate killing or killing that resulted from willful violence against an innocent person. You'll even find that same Biblical phrase used in many US laws.
So killing someone in a fit of rage is NOT murder, then, and as that something a Christian can do. What is about PREPARATION for murder? If you go to a meeting, expecting violence and having a conceiled deadly weapon - is that lying in wait for murder? What is "an innocent person"? Someone who killed may family is certainly not innocent? What about killing someone who begs you to (someone who is deadly ill and has insufferable pain, for example)? What about deliberately and willfully violently killing someone with evil intentions, and how evil have the intentions to be?
You see, "murder" is a question of viewpoint and circumstances. A killing is a killing, no matter the circumstances. But MURDER is different, which is why the law knows a lot of different killings and goes to great length to determine what kind of a killing it has been, when someone ends up dead.
But the law may try - it's not all-knowing, and not always the verdict is right and the findings correct.
That said - a Christian CAN kill, when he doesn't think it's murder, so a Christian CAN go to war, for example.
But a Christian may err (and believe the wrong propaganda, killing in an UNJUST war, making it murder without his knowledge or see a killing as necessary for whatever greater good or preventing evil).
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I just say what the Bible says, dude. It is not like "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" is full of hard to understand symbolism that takes a lifetime of study to understand.
If you say you don't understand what hate is and have no clue about what murder is then the Bible simply is not intended for you.
You do a lot more than that, actually, because you also tell everyone what it means, what the Bible says - and that YOU know better than anyone else, in case others would have a different idea of what it would mean.
You also judge others.
All that is presumptuous.
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Quote:
I can see your new race of über-humans lovingly killing their foes on foreign battlefields, instead of shooting them with hate in their heart. Doubtlessly a big improvement for all of humanity.
The church is not a political kingdom and has no army.
And the True Christians are no nation - still, if your new race will be part of an army - like you have been - I suppose that you would kill your enemies with a loving attitude: instead of "die, you m...", you'd of course think, "sorry, beloved enemies, but you are misguided and I'm really sorry, I have to kill you."
Big difference and big improvement, for everyone.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 19, 2013 05:16 PM |
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fred79 said:
boy, have I been a naughty boy... i's goin' ta HELL, fo sho, massuh. lawdy yes, i is. 
Since we've made it a habit of being respectful to each other I thought on this fly-by (no, no superman here, just a dying old cur that at one time was known as Maddog...true)I would land on this "funny" of yours...just to explain my Christian bias.
While a distant fire would be a nasty resting spot it is the known-hells created here that's should be 1st avoided.
something like; sex before all else, then a relationship based "only" on the body-dance, ? baby comes, honor follows...marriage or live-in rules A day...then it's bills and struggling till you've somebody/everybody's had enough, and then? Then, it's welcome to a another fire-flamed room called separating aka divorce; and to think these wonderful existences were born because of the dog-like conquest.
Don't ever go near that > hell, it "might" burn you alive and waste all of your Spirit. At least...cary a little water with you at all times.
Sorry, I cringed 1st and then HAD to share one deeper meaning.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 19, 2013 05:53 PM |
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JJ: << Dude, there isn't EITHER hate OR love - there is a whole lot in between, like dislike and like, and all kinds of negative feelings against others that are NOT hate - but still negative. You do not have to HATE a person to murder them, and you can have a lot of negative feelings for people without actually HATING them. >>
Let me just say that I may not always know about what I am really feeling, let alone what others feel; sometimes when I dislike something and I'm angered I feel like I hate it and that could even lead to me wanting to sin, but then my anger passes. Anyway, only God knows our true feelings and will judge us accordingly.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 19, 2013 06:36 PM |
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Christianity is just submission to an ideology. The mere fact that rejecting god is a sin is enough to point at i.
The magic behind christianity is that it enpowers the state with the duty to punish sinners and evil doers with punishments left to someones imagination.
Confinement was usually impractical, so death by various means occurred. It is hypocritical to preach love but punish sinners and evil doers by various forms of torture that leads to death. I wonder how many innocent people died because "Thy neighbours" lied and framed somebody as a heretic, murderer or something, without proof.
Then people "Confessed" under torture to the most stupid things imaginable, so that the torturers would get along with it and kill him/her.
Yep, definitely I would not want to live in those times. Rich european culture, oh my.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 08:49 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 20:51, 19 Aug 2013.
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markkur said:
fred79 said:
boy, have I been a naughty boy... i's goin' ta HELL, fo sho, massuh. lawdy yes, i is.
Since we've made it a habit of being respectful to each other I thought on this fly-by (no, no superman here, just a dying old cur that at one time was known as Maddog...true)I would land on this "funny" of yours...just to explain my Christian bias.
While a distant fire would be a nasty resting spot it is the known-hells created here that's should be 1st avoided.
something like; sex before all else, then a relationship based "only" on the body-dance, ? baby comes, honor follows...marriage or live-in rules A day...then it's bills and struggling till you've somebody/everybody's had enough, and then? Then, it's welcome to a another fire-flamed room called separating aka divorce; and to think these wonderful existences were born because of the dog-like conquest.
Don't ever go near that > hell, it "might" burn you alive and waste all of your Spirit. At least...cary a little water with you at all times.
Sorry, I cringed 1st and then HAD to share one deeper meaning.
it's cool, man. i was exhausted, pretty much, and was being a supreme ass. i get like that sometimes. i was coming back to delete that post, but since you responded to it, i'll leave it up. for the record, i am not religious, i find the way that religions try to restrict natural human nature, directly out of tune with nature. i mean, if we are truly made in a god's image, that would mean that it has the same flaws we do. but people tell me that this is different. their interpretations tend to meld themselves around their philosophy of god and related topics, instead of taking the words declared as holy, for face value. besides, there are too many inconsistencies in any "holy" text(and, somewhat understandable, being that the text has been translated and retranslated throughout the centuries, by humans, which, i am told, are prone to error), for me to take any religious book seriously. and, knowing humans and their apparent needs for self-delusion(hi, societal construct!), and the fact that humans need to keep their ego from getting hurt or threatened, leads me to believe that believers have more than a little blind spot for certain seemingly obvious realities.
that being said, i don't know the truth, as i am not dead. but then, neither do any believers. i tend to weigh in with the skeptical crowd, even if i have no idea if anything beyond science exists. i haven't seen much evidence of there being any god. what i see, is the carefully constructed, and delicate chaos that human beings create, always on the verge of collapsing. i think that the only thing that keeps human society from collapsing in on itself, is the power of the belief in the things meant to protect their own egos. but that's just me.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 19, 2013 09:04 PM |
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baklava said:
I was hoping for a reply on the executions thing, El. I'm interested in an opposing (but Christian) point of view on those.
Quote:
Taking into account that there is nothing quite as Christian as the principle of repenting, at any point in time, taking the life of a captured and neutralized wrong-doer is something that, even if it was written in red, underlined letters on the cover of every Bible ever printed, could never rationally have anything to do with the essentials of Christianity. I believe that goes for economical reasons for terminating life as well.
Before the Old Covenant was given God demanded that murderers die at the hand of man.
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Genesis 9:
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
When God gave the Law to Moses God demanded that murderers die at the hand of man.
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Exodus 21:
12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. 13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death.
When God gave the New Covenant God said the state has the power of the sword, is to be a "terror" to evil doers, and is an agent of God's wrath on evil doers.
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3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Thus we see throughout history God's penalty for murder has always been death.
Also, God has never said at any time that the state has the function of making anyone repent. In fact the state can't make anyone repent. Yes, repentance is a New Covenant thing, AS WELL AS an Old Covenant thing. Repentance is a call for individuals to change and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the state or escaping penalties for crime. Furthur, the state can't see someone's heart and tell if they have repented or not.
Contrary to your statement, the execution of murderers IS a Christian thing because the NEW TESTAMENT condones it.
The state is to punish the murderer for the CRIME of murder with the death penalty. God punishes the murderer for the SIN of murder with hell. There are varying degrees of punishment in hell.
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Also,
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The church is not a political kingdom and has no army.
Sure it does. It's just silly.
No, Jesus said his kingdom is not political and that his followers do not physically fight for his kingdom. His kingdom is "not of this world." The Jewish religious leaders chose to have a false messiah who did try to establish a political kingdom released instead of Jesus when Pilate gave them that opportunity.
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John 18:
33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. 39 But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?”
40 They shouted back, “No, not him! Give us Barabbas!” Now Barabbas had taken part in an uprising.
The Catholic church may have an army (I think it would be considered an army of the Vatican, which is considered a state in itself) but the church does not. The church is not a physical nation and is worldwide. The church has no army, never has had an army, and never will have an army.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 19, 2013 09:42 PM |
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Baklava, I've been asking the same question on page 63 of this thread, and a discussion followed. You may waant to check that line first before we are starting the same thing over and over again.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 19, 2013 11:00 PM |
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@JJ
Didn't see that one. Was a bit far-fetched to read all the way to page 63. Thanks. And sorry for what might ensue.
@El
I was joking about the army, of course. I understand what Church you meant.
Seeing as this discussion has already been led, I'd just like to add that I don't think you are in concordance with the New Testament on this. With the Old one, certainly. Ancient Jews were in concordance with the Old one as well. There are reasons for the release of the comprehensive patch that is the New Testament.
Like I said, one of the (if not THE) main aspects of Jesus' teachings is repenting, stray sheep returning to the flock, the chance for everyone to discover God and attain salvation. To claim that this is not a pillar of Christianity is, objectively, heresy, or at least it was in my theology class. No mortal minister of the Lord, especially the ideal state that Paul spoke of in the Romans, can have the right to decide, in His name, who is to live and who is to die. Life and death are in His hands, before and after our worldly deaths. This is why we can't even decide on our OWN deaths, as suicide is a terrible sin. Besides, nowhere in the Romans does it even mention the type of punishment involved. Why do you assume the death penalty? Because it was so in the Old Testament, because it's been like that in the Jewish world, because it's been like that in Texas (or is it still? Haven't been following)? Does it come so natural to you? Paul wasn't a lawman, when he doesn't specify the severity of a penalty, does that truly mean he automatically supported executions, undermining the core of Christ's religious philosophy in the favor of increasing public order through fear?
I just can't fathom how that'd be in concordance with the essence of the New Testament. I meant to add "at least in Eastern Orthodox tradition", but I don't think that's even open to interpretation. I simply believe that no one who believes they follow Christ can support the death penalty. I don't have a problem with people supporting it, they can be fairly good blokes, with a strong sense for worldly justice and lack of belief in the otherworldly one. But it's just not right to go around telling people the Bible clearly supports it, when it doesn't. I often see claims like those incorporated into irresponsible and dangerous demagogy, that's why I get interested in their origins once in a while.
Anyhow, my rant aside, thanks for clearing this all up. If you don't feel like restarting this discussion, regard every bit with a question mark in this post as rhetorical. Cheers.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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