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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
Imho
1. You run out of wood with sylvan cuz you pay 27 for lvl 3 IMBA shooter ( archangles cost 25 ore ).
2. You dont have enough crystals for both magmas and thanas, cuz thanes can bash whole army with flamewave + rune thunderclap and dragons have 280 hp and 40 def and are great pair with armageddon spell.
3. You dont have resources for rajas cuz have chosen to build magic guild and do the same creeping exploits every single game.
4. You skip only squires with Haven and u have all other stuff. Why ? Cuz light magic sux at creeping and usind dark with 10 mana first 3 weeks is really annoying.
And it was better that way, all factions felt really different.
I guess in a way that you can say that two imbalanced features can balance each other that way, but I'd rather seen them take a different approach - i.e. make units more balanced rather than have imbalanced units with impossible ressource demands.
____________
What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 08, 2012 05:01 PM |
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Just noticed a simple equation
The lower the random aspect is, the higher the MP potential is.
The higher the random aspect is, the higher the single player potential is.
Also
People who prefer single player do not have the need of exact balance. They wish for more diverse gameplay.
On the other hand people who are focused on MP put high importance on the balance between individual factions.
Zenofex is a great example of what I think is an MP.
I on the other hand am a perfect example of a SP.
We both have a different idea about what balance is.
An MP, needs each faction to be able to compete at all times. If for example inferno tear mage can't defeat any kind of necromancers heroes (miht or magic) then they are unbalanced.
Such people are grand master tacticians. They can change an even battle just by good planing and using the right ability at the right time.
A SP sees the balance in a different point of view. In his (my) opinion, factions are then balanced, when they all can be used efficiently in some situations. A perfect example of this is Heroes II. From statistics none of the 3 main grupes of factions in the game were balanced when compared to eache other. A week production of the Barbarian could hardly win a battle with a week production of the Wizard or Warlock especialy if using magic. But still the barbarian was a good option in some maps. If the map was small, poor on rare resources, consisted of rought terreins the barbarian would get an advantage big enought to destroy the statistically superior factions.
Such people are from my experience more adaptable, and can better chose the proper "tool".
This means that there will always be two sides. The MP and the SP. And it is almost impossible to please both sides. While the reduction of the random elements is a + for the MP it is a - for SP. If the game was designed in an extreme way like H2 it would have 0% MP potential. H6 is clearly designed as an MP game, and this lowers its SP replayabilty.
p.s.
I would like to point out, that I consider hotseat a part of SP rather then MP.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 05:26 PM |
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Also, for people who mostly play against the AI, balance might not be so much of an issue because even with an inferior faction, skilled players can win over the AI under most circumstances. In multiplayer games, the two players will be much more evenly matched, and hence imbalance between factions can easily become decisive.
____________
What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 08, 2012 06:20 PM |
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You can talk about current economy and building costs being badly designed all you want. I have only one thing to say about it. From all my time on this forums I dont remember a vereran player asking about building order advice like Infinitius did. Just a food for thought, I dont bother explaing it all coz people always know better.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2012 06:57 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:58, 08 Jan 2012.
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A system can be random and balanced at the same time.
Some randomness I would cut is the random spells in the old Mage Guilds and the Damage stat in creatures. Like instead of Wanimaze having like 5-12 damage, they would have 9.
What I want back is the old skill system where when you leveled up you got four choices. You can make such a system balanced.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted January 08, 2012 07:05 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 19:06, 08 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
Also, for people who mostly play against the AI, balance might not be so much of an issue because even with an inferior faction, skilled players can win over the AI under most circumstances. In multiplayer games, the two players will be much more evenly matched, and hence imbalance between factions can easily become decisive.
Fun fact: skill ceiling in HOMM multiplayer is fairly low. At least on less complex maps, it's easy to devise an optimal strategy play for each faction. There aren't too many ways to distinguish a good player from a bad one, so once they hit the ceiling players spend their time arguing what was fair and what wasn't.
In real life, particularly wars, it's always about about inequality of opponents. If one good commander finds himself evenly matched, it's not because they both have about equal army AND the same position AND resources AND (...). Think about Hannibal vs Scipio Africanus. For a long time, neither could defeat each other. Scipio had to give field to Hannibal and resorted to hit&run attacks, knowing Hannibal is cut away from reinforcements due to distance from homeland but mostly politics. Hannibal proved himself very good at big battles and Scipio was afraid to face him. Not facing Hannibal directly was very costly, it allowed him to cause destruction in Roman empire. But eventually his forces diminished enough that Scipio was able to defeat him at Zama.
In real wars, balance is only temporary and usually emerges from a mixture of imbalances. Each side uses its imbalances to their advantage and sometimes it causes equilibrium.
Many board games were developed and promoted at war academies. They were useful in training officers. They often contained random elements to simulate unpredictable events. Sometimes an arrow hits the standard bearer, or general's horse stumbles. A recon mistake causes a squad to open fire on their allies. The highest commander can't oversee everything.
Would you call Stratego fair or unfair ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratego
Technically, it has equal armies. Players can use any setup their wish, but they can't see what the opponent chooses ! Even once the game starts, all they can see is which pieces move. Only once two pieces attack each other you can check what the opponent's piece is.
Stratego was a very common game at war academies.
Quote:
Just noticed a simple equation
The lower the random aspect is, the higher the MP potential is.
The higher the random aspect is, the higher the single player potential is.
It's only an approximation. How about dice ? Poker ? It works the other way, too. Wesnoth frustrates many people because on many occasion an elite unit can take 0 damage from an attack, or die. It has high "reload factor".
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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flyingpenut
Hired Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 10:47 PM |
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Ok I have tried to play this one at least 10 times but after 15 minutes I'm utterly bored. Its sad that one of the good old games has died. Everyone say goodbye to the Heroes franchise because this will be the last game you see of it. And after this, good riddance.
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Kivo
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 11:16 PM |
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Quote:
Ok I have tried to play this one at least 10 times but after 15 minutes I'm utterly bored. Its sad that one of the good old games has died. Everyone say goodbye to the Heroes franchise because this will be the last game you see of it. And after this, good riddance.
Same! I have times when I think to myself: Maybe I will start to like the game if I will play it a little more? So when i started playing for about 10-15min I was so bored that I just turneoff the game and did something else. This game could seriously put me to sleep. The main reason for me I think that is the music and the animation speed.
The music is not exciting at all! Just compare the soundtracks from homm2, 3 or 4 ( they contain my favorite pieces ). Especially the battle music in mmh6 is horrible!
For me the animations are too slow. I know that you can change the speed in the options but then the squeaky noises make me freak out...
For example the Maniacs and the Siters walking speed is just so slow. Cant they make the Mauler run or something? its a battle for christ sake, not a church!
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 07:17 AM |
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Quote:
Ok I have tried to play this one at least 10 times but after 15 minutes I'm utterly bored. Its sad that one of the good old games has died. Everyone say goodbye to the Heroes franchise because this will be the last game you see of it. And after this, good riddance.
lol, 15min man? rly? I think a person who give up in a game like this in 15min simply don't like the style (TBS). 15 min is the time to you understand the UI, maybe..
I almost didn't buy the game cos of the absence of the townscreen. I was afraid about other things too, but after playing for a while... (more than 15min you can bet  )Surprise, I got addicted, like I was with homm 3 and homm 5.
idk why the people expect so much or get too disapointed to a game like this... in fact is the same formula of the old HOMMs, the overall gameplay is very similar.
I think some of the changes of this version was to try to boost the multiplayer mode a little. The conquest for territory thing makes the game more dynamic imo. When I saw the resource system, I was wtf, just 1 rare? but again, after playing, it's almost the same thing (wood and ore are a bit more rare). Again, thinking about the multiplayer, this new system might be better, the difference is the reduction of the luck factor. Let's say I'm in a multiplayer map and got surrounded by sulfur but my faction needs mercury. The other guy got surrounded by gems the exact resource he needs more. Then you can see he clearly got the advantage here. Now the rare resources are good equally for everyone, you just need to plan what to build first. I'm not saying this new system is better or worse, just saying it's very viable and don't change the gameplay too much.
Well, after all if u balance the good and the bad points you'll see the game is very good and enjoyable for those who like the style.
Imo the game has a lot of potential, fix the rest of the bugs, make some townscreens and balance some skills, and the game will be even better, maybe perfect.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted January 17, 2012 12:48 AM |
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Difficult question, and kind of unfair to answer, but still, here is my view: in my opinion, the value of the specific heroes game was NEVER in meticulous balance. It was about easy-going - and this requires explanation.
In my opinion, there have been huge changes in how the game is presented from H4 onwards. While H1-3 had top-down 2d map where the look on the game was far more directed toward structure of the map, relationships of objects and creatures and etc, and didn't really give a damn about the looks themselves (it did of course, but in a whole different way. The map of H1-3 does not "shine", does not "bloom", isn't animated to insanity, and it is impossible for a person with average vision not to notice an artifact), H4, especially H5, and to a lesser degree H6, changed that.
First, 2,5D was introduced with H4, and those strange "pastel" colors, plastic looking creatures, and odd to hell unit design an combat map layout.
Then 3D was introduced in H5 in the most horrible way - rotating and (un)zooming the camera became a must just to see what is going on, unit design was childish, and everything was so slow, just to recall the debacle called endturn.
Before I mention H6 in detail, I just want to say one thing. Heroes 3 is not the most popular game in the series because it was best balanced. Far from it, and I have every merit to say something about this I believe: H3 was the balance disaster, likely the most unplayable game in the series if played normally, even after all expansions and patches. But H3 didn't become H3 because it was so great for MP, it is, imo, because it was so relaxing. A girl of mine never played games, like ever, but was quite ready to click her ONLY hero in month 8 up and down, left and right, patiently picking up every last piece of ore. Like she is the only one: I knew a mass of them. It is people like that the booststarted H3 to it's heights, not the ToHers, or the Russian players, or any other. H4 and onwards lost this public, because the designers decided that graphics rules all, and if you make something pretty, people will play it. The designers are so afraid of constricting 3d to minimum, that they killed that easy-going feel.
Ok, now to H6. I am, thus far, happy how the game started.
The town buildings and resource system is by far the best so far, balance wise. The extra resources proved to be unnecessary.
The graphics are better then H5, although I still hate the position of the camera in battles. It should be as in H3. Sure, you can zoom in to see how beautiful the units are, but you won't do that ever twice or thrice. Why for God's sake do they place the camera so high? For realism in sieges? WHO CARES? If you have beautiful stuff to show, and they do, put it in people faces, don't make them smudges in the distance.
I am very disappointed with the music, which is the second most important factors in heroes games (atmosphere). Main theme is very good, and the Haven town theme is phenomenal, one of the best themes in the series of all time, but all else is forgettable and dull. Compared to H3 and H4, battle themes suck big time, there is no dynamics in them whatsoever.
Skill/spell system I do now want to comment for now, I want to see the expansions fill up the gaps and place new stuff. I think it could work then.
Map editor, simultaneous turns, balance and bugs are topics to be judged a posteriori the expansions.
I think the town zones actually could work just fine.
The most important thing as far as MP goes which I didn't play, I have a feeling that in H6 far more MP games will end up competitive to the end. This was so not so in H3, where the game was decided in endgame once in ten times, and the rest vs map exclusively, and where it is simply almost impossible to do something against a top player, who will not make a mistake.
To rate the games in the end, H1 I didn't play, how I LIKE them:
H3
H6-H4
H2
H5
How I judge their potential:
H3-H4-H6 (oh yes  )
H2
H5
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 17, 2012 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
The lower the random aspect is, the higher the MP potential is.
The higher the random aspect is, the higher the single player potential is.
p.s.
I would like to point out, that I consider hotseat a part of SP rather then MP.
@Dave_Jame
A good post of a <imo>very important observation. I am still playing H5 with Q's A.I. Mod and I have "learned" that at any point an artifact or map-design etc. can toss the balance out the window.
It seems to me that imbalances that I encounter might be due to this clash of "needs" and that gulf can be big. <imo>They keep trying to make both sides happy and not succeeding with either.
Another aspect of clashes I think can be found in Ubi's focus on Campaigns. (So strong that in H5 the Editor was not even intended for the fans/players.
e.g. "They" decide to have an awesome "magic-weapon" in a camp-episode and for a scenerio they build-in a "counter" to help the player win (some way to deal with it). However in in MP mode or maps for SP that built-in is not there and the fans have to figure ways to work around or ban.
It appears to me that Devs. cannot make a complete world and then create the different approaches to playing the game.
I agree that HS is not MP.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 18, 2012 02:16 AM |
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@Rainalcar:
I agree with a lot of what you said. Unfortunately neither appreciating HoMMVI nor calling 3D unnecessary will win you a popularity poll around here.
@B0rsuk:
yours is a very interesting and well-thought post. Sure, many great strategy games force the players to overcome the odds or seize a chance. Allow me to try to object.
The problem that arose with some elements of the HoMM series -especially one: the mage guild- is that they allowed no reasonable or skillful response to circumstances from the player. I'll set some examples if I may.
(as a premise, I'm taking aside casual outcomes that aren't really casual, like player A heading east where there isn't the needed resource, and player B heading west where he knows the resource is there - except a few times, this won't usually happen randomly but just because one player knows the field better than another)
First off, let's assume a precious artefact is guarded by a stack of lvl7. The AI will "randomly" decide if they are, say, Archdevils rather than Black Dragons. If I'm a dark magic expert, Archdevils are rather manageable while I should wait before challenging the dragons if at all. If more than one player is presented with such choices, albeit the choices in themselves are randomly given, all players have their chance to take the correct course of action and adapt to chances or succumb to them. Say, my opponent has to break through for an important artifact as well, but the computer randomly decided to put Magmadragons guarding it; my opponent, playing dwarven fortress with a draca-geddon build, decides to try and break through despite Magmadragons being dangerous for his strategy, whereas I chosen to leave Black Dragons alone for the same reason. In the end, I'll suffer less casualties than him and thus have an advantage - because I reacted correctly to the random problem the AI presented me.
Now, another example. I'm playing Fortress and I really wish for an Armageddon as a lvl5 spell to put a draca-geddon together, whereas my opponent is playing Sylvan and he'd really love to get Implosion for Implosion-imbued multiple arrows. In a twisted irony, I get Implosion and he gets Armageddon. Are we screwed? Well, not really as we still got good spells, we just need to readapt our plans.
Problem comes in a different fashion if my Necro gets Phoenix and Puppet Master whereas your Necro gets Arcane Armor and Call of the Netherworld. In that case there's really not much you can do to "adapt" to circumstances. You come at a relevant disadvantage against me and you really bear no fault for that, but still you're quite hopeless about it.
Notice that the fact that a good general CAN realistically be screwed by circumstances has a lot to do with realism but not as much to do with game design. One COULD put a feature in HoMMVI that makes your hero die suddenly and unpreventably of a random pestilence every now and then with your army disbanding as a result. It would be realistic, but it would hardly be fun.
Now, example n.3 is the sort of scenario that the random Mage Guild system created often. Not so often that it could kill the game, but often enough to see no reason for it to stay unlike other "randomized" factors like the appearence of guarding creatures or the day-week-month system.
Essentially, you are correct in saying that randomness can be a part of strategy, but when it deprives the player of any efficient reaction, it stops working in a game design perspective.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted January 18, 2012 06:56 AM |
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Quote:
In real life, particularly wars, it's always about about inequality of opponents. If one good commander finds himself evenly matched, it's not because they both have about equal army AND the same position AND resources AND (...). Think about Hannibal vs Scipio Africanus. For a long time, neither could defeat each other. Scipio had to give field to Hannibal and resorted to hit&run attacks, knowing Hannibal is cut away from reinforcements due to distance from homeland but mostly politics. Hannibal proved himself very good at big battles and Scipio was afraid to face him. Not facing Hannibal directly was very costly, it allowed him to cause destruction in Roman empire. But eventually his forces diminished enough that Scipio was able to defeat him at Zama.
Except that Scipio never actually fought Hannibal until Zama, what he did was let Hannibal run around South Italy (trying to turn roman allies against Rome) and went for his homebase, Iberia. Then with no reinforcements (they got cut off and destroyed), with his base of operations in roman hands, Hannibal actually packed up and left (and if I remember correctly, it was Carthage itself calling him back 'cause he was gettin' nowhere). Also, Hannibal was winning by pure tactical idiocy from the romans he was facing. First battle up northern Italy the romans attack through a river and don't actually scout (and the cavalry catches them off-guard). Second battle they fall Oh so easily into a trap and get pushed into a lake. Third battle they fall for feigned withdrawal and get encircled again. Romans at this era weren't renowned for their tactical genius, you know. They only beat Pyrrhus because he ran out of troops and they didn't, 'cause they were failing at every engagement where Pyrrhus had enough, he just lost too many troops in the long run when he was winning (pyrrhic victories anyone?), and his recruitment pool wasn't as good (mercenaries vs citizen militia-type army).
And to close the story on Hannibal, at Zama he got beat when Scipio used more or less everything Hannibal had showed them tactically with his little stunt in Italy. Now THAT is what romans are known for... learning and re-applying what they learned.
And errmm sorry for being slightly (very) off-topic. For the record I voted Heroes2. Of the games I know (2-6), it's the one I'm least likely to revisit right now.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 18, 2012 10:14 AM |
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@Momo
Very nicepost.
I think there is a way how the Random spell system could be deald with. And I would not go far, and take ispirations from Dicsiples and KB.
How? by Buig spells
This system would work in the falowing way. I will start the example on H V system. When the MG would be build, it would have 3 slots these slots would be for basic Lv1 spells.
Each faction would have two basic schools that would be the closest to them. For example Necro would have Summoning and Dark. One of these slots would be reserved for each of these schools the last one would be for the other two. The player would sympli click the slot and chose one of the all the level 1 spells from that school and woudl pay a small price for this desicion (500gold? 250 gold? or less) The last spell could be chosen from the two other schools, but there price would be higher. Also a limit "One spell per turn" would be nice.
The second level of the MG would allove the player to buy 3 more spells. from level 1-2 acording to the same system (+ for each native school and 1 for the rest) The higher the spell level the highr the cost.
IMHO This would allowe us to have a balanced spell system for MP, but would also bring back such things like Pyramids and Shrines of magic.
It could also be aplicable on the H6 stystem with a few adjustments.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 18, 2012 10:44 AM |
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Quote:
Each faction would have two basic schools that would be the closest to them.
If you mean that every faction will be able to learn these two schools almost always and will have almost no chance to learn the others, I'm 1000% against it. Such limitations are very difficult to balance (and remain fun on top of that) and it's already obvious that the Ubi-suffix teams are unable to grasp even the basics of what is a balanced game.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 18, 2012 11:14 AM |
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Well this is the way it was in heroes V. It should not limit what the hero can lerne but what is accesable in the mage guild of the particular faction.
If I would stay in the H5 system. Each faction has acces to all spells. (All four schools) But each faction is more or less native to some of them, these schools should be more accesable and have the dominat position in the factions mage guild. For Example An inferno demon lord, should not have such large acces to Light magic like a priest, but he is able to steal those spells from his library.
The "buy your spell system" should solve such situations as Momo has described and also alowe the player to react more flexibly to the oponent.
It woudl reduce the randomness aspect of the MG but would not end in the redicules one spell per level situation and we could ave more interesting skills.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 18, 2012 11:25 AM |
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Yes, that's how Heroes V was like and the skill/spell system in Heroes V contributed generously to the many imbalances between the factions - and I'm not talking about the randomness. If you limit each faction just to certain skills and spells, you have to make sure that it will make the best possible use of them and will not be outmatched by another faction which has access to other skills and spells which are more effective - generally or just in the hands of the given faction. This alone requires a lot of dedication, testing, requesting external opinions (and external testing) and other things which Ubi-something don't want to be bothered with. So - no, not again, thanks.
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crislevin
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 18, 2012 11:29 AM |
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has to be 4. the creatures looks really ugly and growth rate felt weird.
Overall, not a good game.
5 is not very good neither, I was unable to finish it at all.
My order would be:
H3
H2
H6
H5
H4
____________
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 18, 2012 11:44 AM |
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@Zenofex
This just shows that we have oposite valueas :-).
But just to make my self clear as much I can
The system I suggest is a way how to make each faction have acces to all spells but still have its unique feeling. Which is much more balanced then any other system we ever had. Sinc H-VI is same as any other games in this topic, no faction has acces to all spells just to 5-6 out of 7 shools.
The balance of the spells is another topic, that I am not focusing on. I try to creat a system not its content. that would be a diferent topic.
But since you dislike my ideas. I would realy like to hear yours to bring a diferent point of wiev into the discusion.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 18, 2012 12:55 PM |
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In Heroes VI each faction has access to most skills and spells and is not allowed to use a very small number of the trees. In Heroes V half of the spell schools are effectively blocked for your faction and if the map-maker doesn't compensate for that, you have to deal with what you are given by default + some of the skills have a very low chance to be learned by certain factions. I'll agree a bit more with a Heroes IV-type of spell system with 1 predominant and 2 support spell schools per faction with all the other skills being universally available but even this is sub-optimal. The easiest way to balance the things out is to keep most of the skills/spells available to everybody and diversify the factions via different means - for example skill specializations (in universally available skills) unique for each faction, unique skills and spells, etc.
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This thread is pages long: 
