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Dark-Whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 04, 2012 12:46 PM |
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How can we compare a game that was released 4 months ago against fully patched games with expansions.
If you don't remember how H:V looked at release, or that whole community had to force UBI to postpone release after disastrous demo, I do.
I still remember how disappointed I was when I fired up H:IV for the first time.
And H:I, II and III were released so long ago that everyone gives them now to much credit on the count they are still playing it after 12 or more years.
For me, worst was H:IV. For H:VI I will have to wait few years for that last patch and expansion to make my judgement, but so far it looks very promising.
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Leonhart
Hired Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 12:59 PM |
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Quote:
One thing I like about H6 is the fact that there are cases when it is more profitable for you "NOT" to upgrade a unite.
No it's not profitable to leave creature dwelling unupgraded because it increases unit's growth a lot and you can still buy the unupgraded versions of the units.
I do see your point, but more often than not the upgraded units are by far more useful. If some of their predecesors have skill that is better in some situations they still lack the stats.
I'd like to choose between alternate upgrades instead of unupgraded and upgraded unit.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 04, 2012 01:30 PM |
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Quote:
I have spent the past 30 minutes trying to imagine that people still play h3 but have been unable to. I loved H3 Back in the days when it was still new or atleast not ancient. and hell it was an awesome game for its time but. if it where to be released now it would barely score a 30%. wheras H6 got pretty decent reviews. and after playing H6 alot of H3 functions feel sluggish and annoying while not adding anything besides out dated but ugly graphics.
in my oppinion the worst thing you can do is play games you played when you were young. the magic is just gone once you look at it from a new perspective and it wont even come close to the sensation you felt when you played it back then. leaving it with nothing but a dissapointment.
so if we review all games right now. the best will ether be H5 or H6.
I'm not even that much of a Heroes 3 lover, but I don't agree with your points here. First of all, it doesn't make sense to imagine Heroes 3 released today with its original graphics; graphic capabilities evolve, and if you had released H3 with contemporary graphics - and I'm not talking 3D, but something that's not more or less crude pixelart - I think it would have scored pretty well. Notice that I'm not talking about a re-release of H3 (as I know some people opt for) but if H3 had been released as an original game today.
So H6 scored decent reviews - maybe that's true. But when I read half of those reviews, I wonder if the reviewers even went beyond playing 5 minutes and thinking - hey, the graphics are nice, and then scoring a 8/10. Probably they didn't, because a bug made the game colapse ... But then again, to be fair, I'm biased by my knowledge of the previous game chapters, I guess if seen out of that context, H6 is indeed a decent game, if nothing more. But I think a game with H3's layout and H6's graphics would have scored at least as good.
On a side-note, it's not too long that I got one of my favorite old games - Indiana Jones & the Fate of Atlantis - and played it again. It's still one of the greatest adventure games I ever tried - even if the graphics are a joke by today's standard.
____________
What will happen now?
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 01:37 PM |
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@evenin
Good post i whole heartedly agree with most of your points.
Quote:
@avalon00x
While I find it true that some games which were magical back then will not create the same impression nowadays, I don't think it's correct to compare them one next to another. Context must be taken into account. Technically, H5 ToE is far better than H3, however if we take the context into account things turn in favor of H3. It's not about nostalgia, but the state-of-art for games in a particular period. H3 was closer to the state-of-the-art in its time than H5 was in 2006.
You are completely correct about H3 being closer to state-of-the-art in its time as ether Hv or H6.
But the poll asks us wich is the worst. and when we put all things on a line for things right now. The only reason H3 is even playable on new machines is becouse of mods. im not even joking it littraly crashes within 5 minutes. The company is bankrupt so there is zero official support for problems with the game.
if you willing to ignore that and ignore the obvious difference in graphics. there are very few ( atleast that i can name) things that were done BETTER in H 3. (or 1,2 ) for that matter.
when you are willing to ignore the above the only thing that can differete for you are oppinions
-wich factions you prefer
- the strength of magic
- town screens
- tier system
- 4 or 7 resources
- chaining 7 heroes
- seperate resource pool
- town conversion
- wich units do you like better
Then the above things are the real reason one likes or dislike a game
and nether of those are good or bad they are simply prefferences.
i voted H 3 as worst not becouse i think it is bad i simply think that it is the most over rated one.
Quote:
Quote:
One thing I like about H6 is the fact that there are cases when it is more profitable for you "NOT" to upgrade a unite.
No it's not profitable to leave creature dwelling unupgraded because it increases unit's growth a lot and you can still buy the unupgraded versions of the units.
I do see your point, but more often than not the upgraded units are by far more useful. If some of their predecesors have skill that is better in some situations they still lack the stats.
I'd like to choose between alternate upgrades instead of unupgraded and upgraded unit.
He said units not dwellings. 
edit:
@alcibiades
sorry i did not see your post when i was typing.
i think some of the points i have described above.
a h3 released at this day would indeed be verry interesting.
but when we take in consideration that H6 can be modded. it is quite possible. but mods dont make a game a good game.
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leonhart
Hired Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
He said units not dwellings.
That changes everything. My bad.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 04, 2012 01:55 PM |
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Quote:
I have spent the past 30 minutes trying to imagine that people still play h3 but have been unable to. I loved H3 Back in the days when it was still new or atleast not ancient. and hell it was an awesome game for its time but. if it where to be released now it would barely score a 30%. wheras H6 got pretty decent reviews. and after playing H6 alot of H3 functions feel sluggish and annoying while not adding anything besides out dated but ugly graphics.
This just proves that you are limiting your thinking a bit too much. Heroes III still has - by far - the largest playing community in the series and this doesn't seem likely to change any time soon with Ubisoft's notoriously rubbish stance towards the franchise. Maybe you have to play as much as an active HoMM III player to understand why, maybe it's too much a matter of personal opinion but the fact is that, in terms of playability and replayability, Heroes III is not yet surpassed nearly 13 years later. Like it or hate it, that's how it is. And that's by the way one of the most important things that Ubisoft are too ignorant and short-sighted (or just as likely - greedy) to notice - that a good strategy game is a game that can be replayed over and over again without getting boring. I know I'm bored of Heroes VI after no more than a month of somewhat active playing.
And I'm also seriously tired of the "wait for them them to make the game good after 10 patches and 2-3 expansions" attitude displayed by certain so-called fans. Here's another thing that you don't seem to understand - having a full game that can be played well from a scratch without irritating you with bugs, balance insanity, bad design decisions, etc. is one of the most important things that determines whether you'll like the game or not. A game is something that's supposed to entertain you, not to get on your nerves. If it has many flaws, it should at least have just as many or more good sides to increase your flaw-tolerance until the flaws are disposed of. As obsolete as some things in Heroes III might be, it has NEVER, not for a single moment, made me want to turn it off because something in it was screamingly incomplete - technically or gameplay-wise. The rest is subjective, I can point you 50 things which I consider better in Heroes III than in Heroes V and VI but what's the point, that's my opinion and you are not obligated to care about it. Neither I should care about yours. So, in short, you may like or dislike whatever you want and that's your right but if you are trying to show your subjective point of view as something objective, you will mess up.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 02:14 PM |
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@zenoflex
The only thing that you named that is a fact is that H6 has bugs.
other then that all that you have given me to discuss with are your opppinions.
and as far as balance go h6 is oen of the most balanced heroes out there or well atleast in my oppinion.
You can't blame them for the unit choice you can however blame H6 for:
Town screens ( arguably on this list )
No Sim-turns
Bad Communications
Bugs
Unable to multiplay custom maps.
But then again we can blame H3/4 for.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns. ( H5 would like a word with this too)
pixel graphics
Unstability
Zero communications.
Zero support
no sim-turns
Out dated Graphics.
You accuse me of limiting my thinking wheras i am looking at the facts.
I am not trying to turn H3 into cinder i love all the games from H3 till h6.
but in this day and age h6 has h3 beat.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 04, 2012 02:25 PM |
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Quote:
outdated graphics
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 02:31 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
outdated graphics
Seeing as you have problems with reading here i will help you a bit.
Townscreens != graphics it is part of presentation however wich is why i placed it on the list.
Quote:
You can't blame them for the unit choice you can however blame H6 for:
Town screens ( arguably on this list )
and besides the townscreen of h6 of your example looks muuch better ingame. i will post you a better one when i get home.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 04, 2012 02:41 PM |
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Just tell me why I should 'blame' H3 for having 'pixel graphics'.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 04, 2012 02:43 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
outdated graphics
Paper cutouts vs. 3D imaging (sure, Warcraft cartoony style but...) Generally, the 3D is considered better, unless we are looking for a nostalgia game. Silly Avi.
Also,
Quote:
and besides the townscreen of h6 of your example looks muuch better ingame.
This.
Edit:
Quote:
Just tell me why I should 'blame' H3 for having 'pixel graphics'.
You shouldn't. It was a great game for its time, but you should not bring up its graphics/ art style as a strong point either. Leave older graphics to an older generation.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 04, 2012 02:53 PM |
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Quote:
H3 (...) Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns.
What
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 02:58 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
H3 (...) Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns.
What
on huge maps and since h3 its gotten worce with h4 and h5 made it even worse. H6 put an end to that nonsence.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 04, 2012 03:00 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:02, 04 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
and as far as balance go h6 is oen of the most balanced heroes out there or well atleast in my oppinion.
That's right, in your opinion. In my opinion if you have only 5 factions and only 3 of them are somewhat balanced (although not completely), then you've messed up a lot. And let's not talk about the spells and skills.
Quote:
You can't blame them for the unit choice
What is "unit choice"?
Quote:
But then again we can blame H3/4 for.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns.
Sorry, what? Are we talking about 300 Mhz processor with 32-64 MB RAM? Because pretty much everything above that will get all 7 AIs play their turn in a minute at most. A regular PC from 2005 will see them done in even less. So if you've only played Heroes III in a mid-90s config, you should refresh your experience before claiming something ridiculous.
Quote:
pixel graphics
Uh?
Quote:
Unstability
What? I'm beginning to wonder if you've played the game at all.
Quote:
Zero communications.
What do you mean by "communications"?
Quote:
Zero support
I'm more and more convinced that you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Out dated Graphics.
... which some of us like more than the shiny manga snowe that's being enforced on the series since Heroes V.
Quote:
You accuse me of limiting my thinking wheras i am looking at the facts.
No sir, you should check what a "fact" means in the dictionary and then edit your post.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 03:04 PM |
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Now Avirosb, if you want to compare the graphics of H3 and H6, I suggest choosing units' apperances next  You have just chosen the worst thing intentionally. H6 doesn't even have town screens yet.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 03:13 PM |
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I chose heroes 6, because i played it less than other games, some of the reasons why, I said in my previus post).
-Heroes 4 played 2 to 3 months,
-Heroes 5 (with no expansions) also 2 to 3 months (with expansions i played even more, maybe a year in total),
-Heroes 3 played 6 years (started to play again 3 years ago when found about wog, and other mods).
-h6 1 month.
While technically heroes 5 are better than heroes 3 in almost evry aspect, I am still playing heroes 3. Why? Simple, beaucse its more fun for me and my friends to play it. If we need to choose on what heroes game we will spend oure time, we always choose h3 in the end.
For all people that think that heroes 3 are not played anymore, can go and check gameranger, or tungle, or some other similar program. Everyday there are more than 20 matches going on at any given time.
Quote:
@avalon00x
- the strength of magic
- town screens
- tier system
- 4 or 7 resources
- chaining 7 heroes
- seperate resource pool
- town conversion
Then the above things are the real reason one likes or dislike a game
and nether of those are good or bad they are simply prefferences.
Exactly, all hero games are good games. Someone likes the changes more, someone don't, and in the end that's what will decide will heroes 6 be successful. While i liked the changes (or better said improvements, except the caroony art style)) in heroes 5 in almost all aspects of game, heroes 6 did not improved, but changed. The changes they made i don't like.
Quote:
@zenoflex
You can't blame them for the unit choice you can however blame H6 for:
Town screens ( arguably on this list )
No Sim-turns
Bad Communications
Bugs
Unable to multiplay custom maps.
Let me add few thing on the list:
-bad Ai
-5 factions
-4 resources (someone likes that, someone doesn't)
-shared pool for regruting
-no magic guild (spells should not be like skills)
-low number of map objects
Quote:
@zenoflexBut then again we can blame H3/4 for.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns. ( H5 would like a word with this too)
pixel graphics
Unstability
Zero communications.
Zero support
no sim-turns
Out dated Graphics.
Few things here also, but that are good =)
-good Ai
-small system requirements
-8 factions
-lot of neutrals
-lot of map objects
-great music
-little number of bugs
-7 resorces (maps are full)
Unstability? What unstability? I dont understand this? stable from the first release. Maybe they are unstable on vista or windows 7, but back then, there were stable as rock.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns? Compared to h5 they were fast as lightning, and smart as Einshtain.
Out dated Graphics? The graphic was best for that time, and had much better art style then heroes 6 (but this is a matter of taste).
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You can't blame them for the unit choice
What is "unit choice"?
The kind of units they have used in the game. rather obvious no?
[qupte]Quote:
But then again we can blame H3/4 for.
Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ai turns.
Sorry, what? Are we talking about 300 Mhz processor with 32-64 MB RAM? Because pretty much everything above that will get all 7 AIs play their turn in a minute at most. A regular PC from 2005 will see them done in even less. So if you've only played Heroes III in a mid-90s config,Quote:
this has gotten progressively worce with h4 and h5. besides if you run it on a new rig it crashes. maybe you would not know seeing as you have to compare to pre 2005 machines.
Quote:
you should refresh your experience before claiming something ridiculous.
i claim nothing rediculous stop making rediculous accusations against me.
Quote:
Quote:
pixel graphics
Uh?
take a look at the screenshot.
Quote:
Quote:
Unstability
What? I'm beginning to wonder if you've played the game at all.
on new machines with windows 7 this game dous not run stable at all i hope even you realise this.
Quote:
Quote:
Zero communications.
What do you mean by "communications"?
dosu the company still post things about h3 or anything? or communicate with the community? i think you know the answer.
Quote:
Quote:
Zero support
I'm more and more convinced that you don't know what you're talking about. Quote:
what is it with you and strawmanning. becouse to all my valid points you have said nothing besides strawman or bs arguments.
Quote:
Quote:
Out dated Graphics.
... which some of us like more than the shiny manga snowe that's being enforced on the series since Heroes V.
out dated graphics are not good. maybe you dont like the new Style. But that is entirely your problem.
Quote:
Quote:
You accuse me of limiting my thinking wheras i am looking at the facts.
No sir, you should check what a "fact" means in the dictionary and then edit your post.
this is getting rediculous i posted facts whethever you like it or not and mo amount of strawmaning will change that if you do not see these as facts you are the blind one.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 04, 2012 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
dosu the company still post things about h3 or anything? or communicate with the community? i think you know the answer.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted January 04, 2012 03:53 PM |
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Going back to upgrades:
What really bothers me about upgrading is with how poor most non-upgraded units are, you are pretty much forced into the upgrade. Look at the aforementioned harpy of Heroes 6. Without the "no retaliation" ability of the upgrade, their use is greatly diminished. They are incredibly fragile and a liability if used for anything other than a follow-up attack. There is never any reason to use the regular version over the upgraded version. That does not add depth.
The Heroes 5 route of giving us multiple options is the only way upgrades add depth. In Heroes 5, choosing between skeleton warriors and skeleton archers changed your tactics. In Heroes 6, choosing between skeletons and skeleton spearmen (or whatever they are called) does not change anything.
As to the argument it comes down to whether or not to purchase an upgrade or get a new dwelling, there is some merit to that argument. In the older games, you are more than likely always going to purchase a new ranged or no-retaliation unit over upgrading a walker, because they were likely to survive. No point in buying a new dwelling just to get your units killed, right? Heroes 6 is similar with an important difference, that being the tier system. Now you have 3 dwellings to choose from. While that does offer some depth, if you can afford all three, chances are you still going to choose the Snow Maiden/Centaur/Lich/Blazing Glory/Breeder first due to caution, tactical advantage, and previous Heroes experience. Even if you do not pick those units, it doesn't really matter given Heroes 6 extreme leniency on tactical errors with abundant healing.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 04, 2012 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
Just tell me why I should 'blame' H3 for having 'pixel graphics'.
The point I wanted to make was that Heroes 3 was made for monitors that was, at best 600 x 800 pixels. With today's monitors, that makes many things look a bit crude.
____________
What will happen now?
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