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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 08:46 PM |
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Because 3D serves no functional purpose - it's mere distracting eye candy, put in there because there's the expectation that modern games need to be 3D. It's superfluous and unnecessary. Functionally, what does 3D add to the game? If it adds nothing, why is it there? The game can still be beautifully rendered in 2D, so the aesthetic argument isn't really tenable.
+1
One of the minor problems with heroes 6 and heroes 5 was that i couldn't see very good the adventure map and all the objects on it.
I would love to see what could they do if they made a hero game in 2d.
With today's technology they could make great looking game. But unfortunately it won't happen  .
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
Because 3D serves no functional purpose - it's mere distracting eye candy, put in there because there's the expectation that modern games need to be 3D. It's superfluous and unnecessary. Functionally, what does 3D add to the game? If it adds nothing, why is it there? The game can still be beautifully rendered in 2D, so the aesthetic argument isn't really tenable.
Well, if you are talking about the 3D video games in general, imagine Half-Life 2 in 2D. It would be ridiculous.
But I'm turning back to just Heroes. First of all, The thing you call "eye candy" is what seperates home games from video games. "Video" games.
And how does it add nothing? It adds reality. The difference between 2D and 3D is depth. And how does depth, the third dimension, have no function in a game you can move anywhere you like and is played and designed like you have "depth"?
Think it this way. There is a huge building on the map and in 2D the area behind it must totally empty, cause it cannot be seen by the player. But in 3D, as all the map is just like it is in real life and according to the physics rules, no empty areas are necessary. You turn the camera and you see the things behind that building, because they can be put there now.
Space becomes important and convenient with 3D. The crab-like side-walking units and heroes in H3 are funny at this age, and it is absurd to prefer them whereas you have units, objects, heroes, that are seen just like they should and were intended to be.
You have creautures that are 3D, because "creatures" are 3D things. Objects that are 3D, because that object in reality is a three dimensional one. Just look at a H3 adventure map, all the map is like Ottoman miniatures, all contradicting to physics rules, every seperate item is posed from front but put next to each other as if they are above each other on that ground. That is why when you walk in a direct line towards or backwards to the screen in H3, your hero seems like he walked much less than he does when you make him walk sideway. And now open H6 and walk "into" the forest. Cause now you can.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2012 09:21 PM |
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Quote:
Ehm ... ISN'T the view from your car 3D? The world I live in certainly seems to be 3D. 
Nope, your vision is 2D.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 04, 2012 09:31 PM |
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3D maps looks smaller to me than 2D maps, for some reason.
It's like they lose their epicness once they allow me to zoom in on every little detail.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 04, 2012 09:34 PM |
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Not me. 3D all the way! 
(for video games at least)
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 09:45 PM |
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Give me a good looking modern 2D game and I'll be all in on it.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 09:56 PM |
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Edited by somi at 21:59, 04 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
Quote:
Because 3D serves no functional purpose - it's mere distracting eye candy, put in there because there's the expectation that modern games need to be 3D. It's superfluous and unnecessary. Functionally, what does 3D add to the game? If it adds nothing, why is it there? The game can still be beautifully rendered in 2D, so the aesthetic argument isn't really tenable.
Well, if you are talking about the 3D video games in general, imagine Half-Life 2 in 2D. It would be ridiculous.
But I'm turning back to just Heroes. First of all, The thing you call "eye candy" is what seperates home games from video games. "Video" games.
And how does it add nothing? It adds reality. The difference between 2D and 3D is depth. And how does depth, the third dimension, have no function in a game you can move anywhere you like and is played and designed like you have "depth"?
Think it this way. There is a huge building on the map and in 2D the area behind it must totally empty, cause it cannot be seen by the player. But in 3D, as all the map is just like it is in real life and according to the physics rules, no empty areas are necessary. You turn the camera and you see the things behind that building, because they can be put there now.
Space becomes important and convenient with 3D. The crab-like side-walking units and heroes in H3 are funny at this age, and it is absurd to prefer them whereas you have units, objects, heroes, that are seen just like they should and were intended to be.
You have creautures that are 3D, because "creatures" are 3D things. Objects that are 3D, because that object in reality is a three dimensional one. Just look at a H3 adventure map, all the map is like Ottoman miniatures, all contradicting to physics rules, every seperate item is posed from front but put next to each other as if they are above each other on that ground. That is why when you walk in a direct line towards or backwards to the screen in H3, your hero seems like he walked much less than he does when you make him walk sideway. And now open H6 and walk "into" the forest. Cause now you can.
But what do you get from 3d in hero game? New strategy? New gameplay? You can rotate around, and thats nice, but you dont get a thing that is diffrent in the game.I think the point he was trying to make is that game would be the same in 2d or 3d.
Quote:
Give me a good looking modern 2D game and I'll be all in on it.
Bastion, shank, space pirates and zombies, starfarer. I can give you more if i remeber the names
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 04, 2012 10:08 PM |
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But what do you get from 3d in hero game? New strategy? New gameplay? You can rotate around, and thats nice, but you dont get a thing that is diffrent in the game.I think the point he was trying to make is that game would be the same in 2d or 3d.
Graphics, buddy, graphics. It looks better (if done properly) in 3D as opposed to 2D. And for a lot of people (me being one of them  ) a game's appearance is every important. Because, for me, no matter how good a game is, I wouldn't like it as much as a mediocre game with better graphics. Of course; tastes differ, and as such, there really isn't any point for us to debate this if you think graphics aren't as important.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2012 10:12 PM |
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Rotating cameras ... That's a different story. Keep them fixed, if you don't like it.
It is not about keeping fixed but about the team spending 3/4 of production time to render everything in 3D, while this adds zero to the playability. By that time they could test and retest the mechanics and probably release a bug free game.
Quote:
Graphics, buddy, graphics. It looks better (if done properly) in 3D as opposed to 2D.
Why? So 3D photography or movies look better than a master painting? I see no reason to think 3D "looks" better than 2D. Design is art, seeing it from all sides is a technical thing.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 04, 2012 10:20 PM |
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Well, if you are talking about the 3D video games in general, imagine Half-Life 2 in 2D. It would be ridiculous.
Completely different kind of game than HoMM. I'm referring to HoMM in specific, not games in general - although my point remains that there's a perception that modern games MUST be 3D in order to sell, even if the 3D format doesn't particularly suit the game in question. Just because you CAN translate a game to 3D doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Quote:
But I'm turning back to just Heroes. First of all, The thing you call "eye candy" is what seperates home games from video games.
Disagree. I don't think a game has to LOOK great to BE great. I'm more interesting in how a game plays than how it looks.
Quote:
And how does it add nothing? It adds reality.
The TBS game is, by definition, an abstract concept. Consider: if "reality" (whatever that means) is important, than why does not HoMM abandon the turn-based format for real time combat and exploration? Why doesn't it abandon creature stacks? Seven day build cycles? Instant building of town structures? And so on. None of these features is particularly "realistic".
In my opinion, the translation to 3D in H5 added nothing functional at all. It didn't change the core game mechanic, or what HoMM was. It still was, fundamentally, the same kind of game. It certainly didn't make anything, functionally, easier. It doesn't enhance strategic options. All it did was add a lot of zooming and rotating and losing objects behind trees and buildings. It also, for me, made the game feel a lot less large and a lot more claustrophobic. It was harder to appreciate the big strategic picture and made it feel less like a strategy game and more like an RPG - and as RPGs go there are far better ones out there.
Well that's just my opinion. I just think game developers (like movie developers now) all rush into the 3D thing because they think it's what consumers want or expect, without pausing to consider whether it actually benefits the kind of game they're trying to make. From a business persective, this admittedly probably makes sense. But I maintain that H3 will long outlast H5 not because it's necessarily a better game, but because it's a lot easier to play - and the conventional 2D presentation has a lot to do with it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 04, 2012 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
Rotating cameras ... That's a different story. Keep them fixed, if you don't like it.
It is not about keeping fixed but about the team spending 3/4 of production time to render everything in 3D, while this adds zero to the playability. By that time they could test and retest the mechanics and probably release a bug free game.
Actually, I recall reading - and don't hold me responsible on the truthfulness of this - that 3D was in many ways cheaper than 2D, because you only needed to do one model of each creature. So I'm not convinced that going 3D was what consumed the big bucks compared to staying 2D.
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What will happen now?
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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 10:27 PM |
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Quote:
But what do you get from 3d in hero game? New strategy? New gameplay? You can rotate around, and thats nice, but you dont get a thing that is diffrent in the game.I think the point he was trying to make is that game would be the same in 2d or 3d.
Graphics, buddy, graphics. It looks better (if done properly) in 3D as opposed to 2D. And for a lot of people (me being one of them ) a game's appearance is every important. Because, for me, no matter how good a game is, I wouldn't like it as much as a mediocre game with better graphics. Of course; tastes differ, and as such, there really isn't any point for us to debate this if you think graphics aren't as important.
Yup, i cant debate because i really don't care that much about graphic. As Salamandre said, the only improvements in games today are in graphic where most of there time (and money) goes. I know that im in miniority, but i would always play a good game with crappy grafic (dwarf fortress), then a bad game with good graphic.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 04, 2012 10:28 PM |
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Graphics, buddy, graphics. It looks better (if done properly) in 3D as opposed to 2D.
Why? So 3D photography or movies look better than a master painting? I see no reason to think 3D "looks" better than 2D. Design is art, seeing it from all sides is a technical thing.
To me, yes; I prefer 3D over 2D in everything except movies. I guess our tastes just differ in this area; nothing we can really do about it.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 10:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
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Rotating cameras ... That's a different story. Keep them fixed, if you don't like it.
It is not about keeping fixed but about the team spending 3/4 of production time to render everything in 3D, while this adds zero to the playability. By that time they could test and retest the mechanics and probably release a bug free game.
Actually, I recall reading - and don't hold me responsible on the truthfulness of this - that 3D was in many ways cheaper than 2D, because you only needed to do one model of each creature. So I'm not convinced that going 3D was what consumed the big bucks compared to staying 2D.
In 3d games, you will need a lot more details becose you need to rotate, zoom, and it must look good. Also there are 2 types of 2d games. Games where everything is drawn (like heroes 2 i think), and games where you create full 3d models, but convert them to sprites (or how its called in english, I don't know), like in diablo 2 game (and maybe heroes 3).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 04, 2012 10:41 PM |
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The graphics is the least important thing in a strategy game. Usually the greater the emphasis is on the appearance, the more shallow is the gameplay (except if we're talking about rich and dedicated developers like Creative Assembly for example). Heroes needs a good-looking battle map and town screens for atmosphere's sake and that's it - the rest of the game could be two-coloured for all I care.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 10:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And how does it add nothing? It adds reality.
The TBS game is, by definition, an abstract concept. Consider: if "reality" (whatever that means) is important, than why does not HoMM abandon the turn-based format for real time combat and exploration? Why doesn't it abandon creature stacks? Seven day build cycles? Instant building of town structures? And so on. None of these features is particularly "realistic".
By reality, I meant the game's reality. Meaning, a unit needs to walk, but in H3 it doesn't seem like it is walking, it is more like crab-walk like I said, two legs of the animation are going back and forth and the animation is floating over the background, whereas it is "really" walking in 3D. Or a building, as every building, has an arena behind it, but you have to walk around it in 2D. No item can be behind each other. That's why 2D lovers here said 3D made the maps smaller. Because 2D wastes lots of space. 3D makes use of every space in a map. I think that is functional.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted January 04, 2012 10:59 PM |
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For those of you arguing that 3D offers nothing, I ask you this: Why do you (and I) greatly want better Town Screens? IMMERSION.
Many people, but perhaps not all, feel a much greater sense of immersion into a fantasy game's adventure map when it is 3D. In Heroes 6 I love the steep cliffs, waterfalls, bridges, realistic trees, flowing lava, and mountain tops.
Town Screens don't affect gameplay in the way that you are arguing 3d doesn't. However, we can all agree that the game would feel better and be more enjoyable with them.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2012 11:09 PM |
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that 3D was in many ways cheaper than 2D, because you only needed to do one model of each creature.
Heroes 3 creatures were made with 3D software. Is the map objects which were with 2D. As one who worked with 3DS max for 2 years (still newbie but saw how it works) I know it takes 20 times longer to create a model in 3D, because you need to design each frame in several angles. I am convinced more than half production time went in 3D graphics. Not that I mind, if all the mechanics around are polished. I love great graphics, who doesn't. But also I played a lot online and there graphics do not count, game must be 100% functional and clear.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 04, 2012 11:21 PM |
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I see. Either way, I agree with whoever said above that the important part with Heroes graphics was never the adventure map graphics, but the town screens and battlefield.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2012 11:22 PM |
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I would have thought that designing in 3D was faster than in 2D. at least when it comes to animated models, since you do not have to draw as many models as there are animations.
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