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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 06, 2012 02:34 AM |
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Quote:
But it's clear that POTENTIALLY HoMM 6 has every chance to beat all others in every respect, depending on what will happen in the future, exceept for those who already have given up due to "having only 4 resources".
The lack of randomization means it pretty much sucks from the single player aspect of the game for replayability. And it also makes it pretty much suck for the multiplayer aspect for me as well.
The decrease to only 4 resources was only one of the poor "streamlinging" decisions.
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 06, 2012 03:35 AM |
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I'm not really sure what "potential" has to do with anything. If you want to talk potential - H3 can be balanced with WoG however you want it to be, so it is "potentially" the best multiplayer and singleplayer experience there is... provided someone is willing to do the scripting.
In any case, for me the quality of an HoMM scales directly with the editor capabilities. Insofar as H3 had BY FAR the best, most accessible editor, and, not coincidentally, BY FAR the best, most diverse and extensive selection of custom maps, it is, BY FAR, for me, the best HoMM game there is.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 05:11 AM |
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I hate Wog because people tend to mod ugly creatures and towns and stuff into that really DOESN'T FIT IN.
I visit the WoG forum and then I look at some screenshots and see that somebody ported in Warcraft 3 Night Elves into HoMM3 and it just looks really, really, really, reallly, really bad and out of place.
Ruins the H3 atmosphere for me. H3 is a game that you do not touch.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 06, 2012 05:14 AM |
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Quote:
Does heroes game need to change or to improve? Im for improvements, not change.
Both, if possible. Change and improvement are only natural, and if a change happens and that makes a better game then all the power to you! Only problem comes in when change is too radical or is just plain strange... Fewer resources is fine, the new creature pool system is fine (we still have 7 creatures of varying power, right?). The part that annoys me is the absolute and utter predictability and clear-cutness of the skill system. I liked that chaos that was in H3,4 and 5, thank-you-very-little.
Quote:
need to rotate the camera every few seconds to see every resource on map or to move underground.
Not if you're doing it right  , but seriously, even from the standard viewing position (which I rarely, if ever, move from), you can get to all of the pic-ups on any map. You just have to shift the camera a little or put your mouse around that rather large, glowing aura that surrounds every item on the map...
Quote:
Nope, they are not cartoony, but if you cant see that, I cant argue with you then. Heroes 5 looks like warcraft, look on peasant, zombie, gargoyl, skeletons, and almost all units, you will see the direction they choose for units. Fat, with lot of different contrast colors. Cartoony units had heroes 2, heroes 3 didnt had them.
Agreed, the creatures in H3 looked more like a "Gothic" style of cartoony than anything, not realistic but also a little too dark and stark for a children's cartoon. And you forgot the imp (Just Look at that head!). But then, you look at the rest of each of the factions, and I must say that "Cartoony" does not describe them. "Blocky" or "In-depth" maybe, but tell me that the Pit Spawn looks like it would appear in a child's cartoon. I dare you to tell me that.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted January 06, 2012 05:26 AM |
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I dont understand this "H6 is potentially the best"
well it can be "potentially the worst" as well..
so what??? just nonsense!!!
As for now the state of Heroes 6 is absolutely disgusting,
unless its changed to better (much much much better),
it cant be called "best" in any way
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 06, 2012 07:27 AM |
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Quote:
Heroes V admittedly improved a lot of things over Heroes III but just by saying that you are not yet proving that it's a better game overall.
Agree with your statement, even if I may not agree with your conclusion.
Quote:
For me, the greatest failures of Heroes V were this idiotic + up to 2.5 additional Initiative at the beginning of the battle which could ruin good several hours of playing just like that, the totally unbalanced Luck, the return to the one-hero-per-faction model and the major reduction of each faction's flexibility via the fixed very high or very low likelihood for hero X to receive skill Y (yes, I know that you can build a Demon Lord with Light Magic but no, you won't be able to do it in 95% of the games).
@ your concerns:
- Initiative: Easily fixable. Initiative was a great addition (imo.), numbers needed tweaking for balance (like the Sylvan issue).
- Luck: Easily fixable.
- One hero per faction: Arguably one of the shortcomings of Heroes 5. That's just a question of adding it, however.
- Skill chances: This one deserves a longer comment:
I don't agree with you on this conclusion. First of all, Heroes 3 had many similar restrictions (in fact, several classes were barred completely from some skills, which imo. is worse than a low chance), and I think the skill bias was a part of making the factions diverse.
Furthermore, if secondary hero classes had been added, this would have helped on this problem a lot, as the two classes could compliment each other - for instance, Wizard has low chance for Logistics and Leadership, Alchymist would have high(er) chance for these skills, but lower chance on some magic skills. This would make each faction less fixed in their template.
____________
What will happen now?
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Dark-Whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 06, 2012 08:15 AM |
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Quote:
I'm not really sure what "potential" has to do with anything. If you want to talk potential - H3 can be balanced with WoG however you want it to be, so it is "potentially" the best multiplayer and singleplayer experience there is... provided someone is willing to do the scripting.
So after 12 years and 2 expansions H:III needs fan made mode to make it playable in MP. And just to play an MP match you need external programs unless you still have dial up modem.
H:V after almost 6 years and 2 expansions needs fan made AI mode to make it playable against computer guided opponent on larger maps. MP was (didn't play it recently) so buggy that I had to quit countless matches due to sync problems.
So many people says that we must consider that H:III was released so many years ago and that THEN it had very good graphic or that BACK THEN it was best strategic game.
Why should anybody cut some slacks to the ancient game just because it was great long time ago when we are judging them today.
As someone already said you should treat it as you have never played it and saw it for the first time NOW. But there is no place for objectivity on online forums as we all know.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 06, 2012 09:10 AM |
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So, if you want to play a GOOD singleplayer game, you play H3.
If you want to play a GOOD multiplayer game, you play H6.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 09:34 AM |
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It's true that HoMM 3 had the best editor - but only after the second expansion, a stansdalone addon that was sold FULL PRICE, milking the customers far more than Ubi ever did.
That second expansion editor made sure, some people did create maps that would make the game REALLY good.
Vanilla Homm 3 was a good game, mostly because it was MORE game than HoMM 2 (2 and later 3 more factions, waiting order, one more creature, 2 more BF slots, Tactics, more interesting abilities, more and individualized heroes), but it had its flaws as well (no balance between might and magic, imbalanced spell system, sucky skills as opposed to great ones, unbalanced hero specials, more boring campaigns, an idiotic AI when it comes to building heroes and spellcasting...).
So HoMM 5 loses the editor competition. CURRENTLY HoMM 6 loses it as well: while from a gaming point of view HoMM 6 is definitely the best MP Heroes game ever, it's wasted due to the fact that you cannot play custom made maps in MP mode.
That, however, is something that can (und must) be rectified.
For randomization - I don't think that brings a replayability problem. Randomization in hero development just means that you are forced to find the best possible way through a set of constraints. If you are free ion your choices you must find the best possible way according to the game conditions. Currently the ability trees are not optimal; a couple of things are not quite right, but in general there are a lot of possible ways to go at things. The key here is to experiment with different hero builds.
Anyway. Since this is a thread "Worst Heroes game", my point is, that if you INCLUDE HoMM 6 in the poll, it's either not fair or you have to compare VANILLA versions, and when it comes to a comparison of VANILLA HoMM versions, there can be no doubt that it's a tight decision between 4 and 5. 4 came without ANY MP capabilities, a braindead AI that was simply not existing when playing on difficulty levels above Advanced or in sieges and only a handful of maps. I also made the mistake to start with the Nature campaign which proved to be insanely boring. It also cut things back from 8(9) to 6 factions and both addons were milking customers in an unparalleled way.
Homm 5 vanilla was a bug-fest with a couple of broken features and heroes (Deleb, for example; Blood Rage in general). It was also the first game with an unusable editor and to change a major game mechanism (Necromancy) with a patch.
Seeing, though, what Ubival did with H5 in the course of 18 months after release there is no reason to assume that Ubihole won't do the same thing with 6.
As a comparison of vanilla games it makes not much sense, though, since times have changed so much. Of course games published in the 90s were better on release in so many respects, that's a general trend.
As a last note, it is true that Single and Multi Player have different aspects to compare.
Both need the editor.
Single Player needs a good AI, replayability of campaigns, diversity in factions, short AI turns...
MP needs balance, connectivity, maybe a ranking system, a minimum in random game-breakers...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 10:06 AM |
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Other than duels, the H6 multiplayer is awful and tedious without sim turns.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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odium
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 10:19 AM |
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Edited by odium at 10:20, 06 Jan 2012.
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With virtually no MP happening I can't see how one can deem H6 as the best in that regard. What about boring and unbalanced skill trees, no replays, no sim turns, no fan made maps, split servers?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 06, 2012 10:24 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:25, 06 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
- Initiative: Easily fixable. Initiative was a great addition (imo.), numbers needed tweaking for balance (like the Sylvan issue).
- Luck: Easily fixable.
- One hero per faction: Arguably one of the shortcomings of Heroes 5. That's just a question of adding it, however.
The point is that they were not fixed. We can talk about "what if" ad infinitum but this will not change the facts. As stated above, the vast majority of the issues which Heroes III has can also be fixed via modding - and unlike Heroes V they have actually been fixed at some point. The problem is that the 10k versions of WoG + other mods are not really suitable for multi-player.
Quote:
- Skill chances: This one deserves a longer comment:
I don't agree with you on this conclusion. First of all, Heroes 3 had many similar restrictions (in fact, several classes were barred completely from some skills, which imo. is worse than a low chance), and I think the skill bias was a part of making the factions diverse.
The thing is that in Heroes III you are not so dependent on your skills because there are 2 additional skill slots and you can compensate for something that's not given to you with something else that's universally accessible. For example - in Heroes V your hero can learn 2 magic schools easily (save Academy which has access to more) and has a very low chance to learn the other 2. Your Mage Guild gives you almost exclusively spells for the schools which are "native" for you. So even if you somehow get one of the "difficult" schools for your faction, you still have to find some external source for the spells. In Heroes III most spells - the ones you really need at least - are available for you in your own Mage Guild and even if you don't have expertise at the respective school, you can still learn them and make a good use of them in quite many cases. Of course it's much better to have Slow with Expert Earth than Slow with nothing but Blind works very well even without Expert Fire - just for example. So the restrictions in Heroes III are neither so severe, nor they have such a big impact on your planning. In Heroes V I've often had a "tunnel" feeling when designing my hero.
Quote:
Furthermore, if secondary hero classes had been added, this would have helped on this problem a lot
Yes, but they were not added.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 11:26 AM |
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Quote:
With virtually no MP happening I can't see how one can deem H6 as the best in that regard. What about boring and unbalanced skill trees, no replays, no sim turns, no fan made maps, split servers?
Skill trees are not boring.
It's true, there could be more interesting skills - in fact the whole skill tree is somewhat ill-designed, and given the clumsy interface this aspect is somewhat in need of betterment.
What do you mean with "unbalanced skill trees", though?
I mean, if every faction had something like an individual skill tree this might be a point, but since everyone has access to more or less the same skills... I mean, sure, Stronghold has access to one more magic school, but Stronghold is also the weakest magic faction and misses Prime, the only one that might boost that. Those who miss Light have Dark, and those who miss Water have Fire and vice versa, with Earth and Air being available for everyone.
Or do you mean the inferiority of destructive spells? That's in fact true only for the MASS or AREA spells which clearly ARE too weak. However, with the classic MAGIC/Destructive factions still absent, damage spells are not supposed to be so strong that they will be a superior or even valid pick in every situation.
So sure, there IS still room to change things - but if I compare this with HoMM 3, where would that be better? Or even with HoMM 5 - where would THAT be better? HoMM 5 is hopelessly imba: Luck, Enlightenment plus assorted stuff, Attack, Logistics, Mass spells...
And Sim turns, I don't find them a big deal. Sure, they help a lot, when playing a BIG map. But on a really playable MP map, they are also a spoiler as soon as they suddenly stop. In all other respects 6 runs a lot faster then the others - and I've played a couple of MP games, and I have more fun with it than with 3 and 5.
I mentioned the fact that you can play only a dozen maps currently. If that would keep that way it would mean game over for HoMM 6, but I can't really imagine that. It would be absolutely inexcusable and would kill the game for MP purposes, making it the worst complete game of the series alright.
But it isn't complete right now. For the time being, though, it's not like you can breeze through all the maps in no time, MPing.
Which means, comparison with the complete games is STILL unfair.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 01:05 PM |
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Quote:
Skill trees are not boring.
It's true, there could be more interesting skills - in fact the whole skill tree is somewhat ill-designed, and given the clumsy interface this aspect is somewhat in need of betterment.
What do you mean with "unbalanced skill trees", though?
I mean, if every faction had something like an individual skill tree this might be a point, but since everyone has access to more or less the same skills... I mean, sure, Stronghold has access to one more magic school, but Stronghold is also the weakest magic faction and misses Prime, the only one that might boost that. Those who miss Light have Dark, and those who miss Water have Fire and vice versa, with Earth and Air being available for everyone.
Or do you mean the inferiority of destructive spells? That's in fact true only for the MASS or AREA spells which clearly ARE too weak. However, with the classic MAGIC/Destructive factions still absent, damage spells are not supposed to be so strong that they will be a superior or even valid pick in every situation.
I was not referring at balance between factions (btw you emphasized many good points for which H6 is not good for MP from this point of view). I was looking at the imbalance between skills (for example how can you compare Destiny's ChosenIII with Cleave which are both tier 3 skills? ). Most of the times you will chose the same set of skills and this is boring. Even if your are free to choose from everywhere in reality it's not true.
Quote:
And Sim turns, I don't find them a big deal. Sure, they help a lot, when playing a BIG map. But on a really playable MP map, they are also a spoiler as soon as they suddenly stop. In all other respects 6 runs a lot faster then the others - and I've played a couple of MP games, and I have more fun with it than with 3 and 5.
In most of the games when you meet it's not long before the game is over. It's not something I won't play Heroes 6 for but it's a clear improvement. And btw, why remove a feature which was there before and it was OK? Maybe because of laziness, lack of skill, lack of financial resources?
Quote:
I mentioned the fact that you can play only a dozen maps currently. If that would keep that way it would mean game over for HoMM 6, but I can't really imagine that. It would be absolutely inexcusable and would kill the game for MP purposes, making it the worst complete game of the series alright.
But it isn't complete right now. For the time being, though, it's not like you can breeze through all the maps in no time, MPing.
Ok I take your word that it WILL BE implemented. So, for the moment it is not so MP is severely limited to say the least.
And what about splitting the servers? You said nothing about this. An important part of the good players come from Russia for example and I won't be able to play agains them. Why cannot members play with each other freely. This is not Starcraft2 to have thousands of concurrent games...
You talk about Heroes 6 as being the best for MP but in your argumentation you refer to an idealized version of Heroes 6 which we don't have. What WE HAVE is crap for MP. Don't trust me? You can see for yourself the amount of games available to join. And as somebody said, idealized version of H6 can be good but H6 can also remain an utter failure. Fans are very vocal since at the moment it is a failure even after 2 patches.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted January 06, 2012 02:27 PM |
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Edited by somi at 14:29, 06 Jan 2012.
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I hate Wog because people tend to mod ugly creatures and towns and stuff into that really DOESN'T FIT IN.
I visit the WoG forum and then I look at some screenshots and see that somebody ported in Warcraft 3 Night Elves into HoMM3 and it just looks really, really, really, reallly, really bad and out of place.
Ruins the H3 atmosphere for me. H3 is a game that you do not touch.
Ohh man, you don't know what you're missing. Instal WoG now. It is the best thing that happened to heroes game ever. And the best about it, all the changes are optional, you can disable them if you don't like some. You can play the same old heroes 3 if you like, but there are tons of options and possibilities.
Quote:
Quote:
Does heroes game need to change or to improve? Im for improvements, not change.
Both, if possible. Change and improvement are only natural, and if a change happens and that makes a better game then all the power to you! Only problem comes in when change is too radical or is just plain strange... Fewer resources is fine, the new creature pool system is fine (we still have 7 creatures of varying power, right?). The part that annoys me is the absolute and utter predictability and clear-cutness of the skill system. I liked that chaos that was in H3,4 and 5, thank-you-very-little.
4 resources are not fine, here are the reasons. By removing resources you remove building planning and unique feel when building for different factions. You remove a part of unique feel of every faction, because you need same resource.
You know, that you can have 1 resource, that will make it even more important. Would you like that?
But the most important thing is that even if you had 7 resorces, you can still make them matter more, just by making so that units need more resources by buying them (elite units need 1 resorce, champion needs 2 or 3 different resources). They chose the most simplest solution, becose they are trying to make a fast multiplayer experience. All things like shared pool, town portals, free and momentum change of town race, removing town screens, and other choices are to make faster multiplayer.
Multiplayer is not better, it is just faster.And I hate them for trying to create a fast multiplayer game, and because of that other parts of game surfer.
Quote:
Nope, they are not cartoony, but if you cant see that, I cant argue with you then. Heroes 5 looks like warcraft, look on peasant, zombie, gargoyl, skeletons, and almost all units, you will see the direction they choose for units. Fat, with lot of different contrast colors. Cartoony units had heroes 2, heroes 3 didnt had them.
Agreed, the creatures in H3 looked more like a "Gothic" style of cartoony than anything, not realistic but also a little too dark and stark for a children's cartoon. And you forgot the imp (Just Look at that head!). But then, you look at the rest of each of the factions, and I must say that "Cartoony" does not describe them. "Blocky" or "In-depth" maybe, but tell me that the Pit Spawn looks like it would appear in a child's cartoon. I dare you to tell me that.
Hey, i said most of units are cartony =). Pit Spawn looks ok, but 90% of others dont =). Also i talk about art style, not grafic that looked good for its time.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted January 06, 2012 02:47 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 18:05, 06 Jan 2012.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 06, 2012 03:16 PM |
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____________
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 06, 2012 03:41 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:43, 06 Jan 2012.
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disturbed-Gnu
Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
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posted January 06, 2012 03:57 PM |
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Haha, cool 
Why do you hate H6 that much? I mean:
H6's skill system is awesome! Waaay better than before..
H6's Resource cut down is great  It gives the game balance when in multiplayer.
H6's Dynasty Artifacts and Standard Artifacts is waaay better than before!
H6's Creature "Tiers" is waaay better than Tier 1 to 7..
H6's Blood and Tears is fantastic
H6's Editor, is better than H5's in every way, and better than H1 to H3 in some ways, but it cannot beat H4's editor (Unfortunatly)
EDIT: Its funny how the most crappy heroes game can have the best editor.. Its not fair
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 06, 2012 04:51 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:53, 06 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
Why do you hate H6 that much?
I'm pretty superficial when it comes to Heroes games, and I'm not a strategist nor a tactician, so I tend to value stuff like story,
ambience/atmosphere, music, art style and stuff like that.
It's not that I don't care about the gameplay, I just haven't had a reason to complain about it yet (until now).
That, and I also don't give a flying eff about multiplayer (online, hot-seat is fun but I don't play to win. Same with Super Smash Bros [the unpredictable is part of the fun IMO]).
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