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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 28, 2002 04:25 AM |
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ahhh i lost everything i just wrote ... grrr... lol.
ok to surmise a 3 page letter:: 
Thank you camelnor for the kinds words, however as we are a team I cannot accept all of the credit, alkis does a whole lot for us, as does doc when healthy, or not on vacation
as for the maps that are not all that aestheticaly pleasing, or realistic..well we are in the begining stages of the great maps.
Unknown lands is hands down my favorite map, but if you have a 56k modem you can delete it from your computer until you are able to upgrade. I have played a lot of this game now, and it takes 5-8 minutes to load if both have cable+.
Someone hit Jaws with a ugly stick as well lol, but it is a fun map to play there is so much to do...as it should be on a lg map. This is a fun map to play with a friend, and it had better be a friend because u may save several times lol.
Dunworld is also a fun map although it is not the most realistic map, it is a good challenge map. I have played it with other people ( I don't test maps with others unless it gets to that stage) and it is FUN TO PLAY! Now I can hear ya before it happens jinxer...fun is not everything however in a rare couple cases i thnk it outweighs aesthetics. We had a bit of controversy over whether or not to accept the map, but in the non-response from anyone on this one, I took the inititive and had it posted, although not realistic, it is challenging, fun and fair.
Realism is going to end up being the key mapmakers...right now I am struggling because this 'job' gets a lot of flak, if we don't accept any then we are lazy, if we accept too many we are too lax, and need to be more stringent. I am not stressed I laugh at both sides and tell them both we are doing the best we can. THERE ARE NO PERFECT MAPS COMING IN.
Boring mountain alkis is taking the lead on this one...I can't stand the map myself, so am very very grateful he is ensuring the map is fair, as I am not generally a open map player, and do not always understand the tiny details of what makes it fair or not...he does.
round the world is also not the prettiest, but it is fun and fair.
@Rob 1) I am not a boy 2)phhhhhhhhhtttt hehe
in conclusion no matter what we do as a council, it is too much or not enough, I haven't seen many people offering their help...minus people already ToH volunteers, and if they did I don't think they know how much time we all spend on this every day. Yes as my dear freind alkis pointed out I tend to try and please people, but as every map maker that has had contact with me knows....i send them back and ask for certain things...often. We do not accept every map, by my calculations we accept about 1:4 submitted.
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god please spare me from my contribulations
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted October 28, 2002 06:30 AM |
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a wise move
I think I will have a permanent link on the maps page main, going to a thread I will set up here where players can rate maps.
I will set it up sometime soon.
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flipmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 28, 2002 05:06 PM |
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Crimson&clover...blue and orange have major...the others nada de nada...(minor)
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted October 28, 2002 08:00 PM |
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Well... I made C&C 5 days after H4 came out, and it was a STRAIGHT REMAKE... but if there is demand, I can make an updated version which would be a lot prettier and better in general. Although im not aware of any balance issues
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 29, 2002 03:30 AM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 28 Oct 2002
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curious
Gee, I'm dyin' to know what the actual conversation was that determined Dunwold is unrealistic. But, before I get my feelings hurt on that one (cuz I've seen a lot of really _unrealistic_ maps, and I go out of my way to make mine as realistic as possible, as well as beautiful), let me admit that Dunwold was my first H4 map, and that, if one wants to berate it, one ought to say it's incredibly _rich_. Mines inside the city walls? Two gold mines? Ridiculous! I know. But I wanted to create some incentive for people to try to hold the walls. I wanted a player to be able to survive inside the walls, even if all the other towns on the map are owned by an opponent or opponents. Unrealistic, perhaps, but I'm betting that's not what jinxer was saying was unrealistic. What was it?
By the way, what happened to Dark Son? Still testing? That map is _much_ more fun. My testing buddy, Sha'plet, and I played a 36-hour-straight game on that one. We just couldn't quit it. I figured map council would give that one the thumbs up before Dunwold.
Shows what I know.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 29, 2002 03:43 AM |
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bobntamr1,
Let me also add that I appreciate what you do, know that it's time-consuming and thankless work, and know that you're bound to take some flak for whatever you do.
camelnor,
While a lot of H3 maps are/were ugly, there wasn't much one could do with that editor. Straight lines were inevitable. Repeated terrain objects were too. One did the best one could, and that had to be enough. In my opinion, however, there's no excuse for an ugly map with this editor (except laziness). There's enough variety in landscape objects to create very realistic-looking and beautiful worlds. Besides, unless I'm mistaken, ToH lists aesthetically-pleasing as one of its criteria for posting maps for tournament play.
all,
Personally, I look at the size of the file when determining which maps I might want to download. A big file means lots of terrain detail--i.e., realistic-looking. "Unknown Lands," for example, is a 150K. That's a big file for a med. with underground map, and while there's a lot of script, there's a ton of terrain detail too. Dunwold, for example, is 81K, a med. no underground map. Again, lots of detail. That, I think, is a good indicator of which maps out to be considered (just a hint bobntamr, as you search those 200 plus files on that Russian site).
Best,
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 29, 2002 04:29 AM |
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russian map site
I have looked at it and am picking through it as we speak to send off to the rest of the map council for review. Then the fun starts with attempting to find the maker and ask their permission to post it. I do not think that is necessary to but polite to do so.
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god please spare me from my contribulations
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Sir_Alkis
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 29, 2002 01:12 PM |
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A wise move
Thank you Vesuvius for your excellent idea. Let's have the players rate the maps. I' m sure someone will call me meticulous but make sure only registered players may vote and have only one vote.
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted October 30, 2002 02:01 AM |
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Quote:
camelnor,
While a lot of H3 maps are/were ugly, there wasn't much one could do with that editor. Straight lines were inevitable. Repeated terrain objects were too. One did the best one could, and that had to be enough. In my opinion, however, there's no excuse for an ugly map with this editor (except laziness). There's enough variety in landscape objects to create very realistic-looking and beautiful worlds. Besides, unless I'm mistaken, ToH lists aesthetically-pleasing as one of its criteria for posting maps for tournament play.
I completely disagree. There were many many beautiful H3 maps. Granted, you can make h4 maps more beautiful than h3 maps, but you could still make h3 maps quite lovely.
And if aesthetically-pleasing is a criterion, then how did CaC (I could name several others as well...) get up there??? lolll 
(p.s. - if CaC will be taken down as it is, then i will make an updated and much prettier version to keep it there )
Quote:
Personally, I look at the size of the file when determining which maps I might want to download. A big file means lots of terrain detail--i.e., realistic-looking. "Unknown Lands," for example, is a 150K. That's a big file for a med. with underground map, and while there's a lot of script, there's a ton of terrain detail too. Dunwold, for example, is 81K, a med. no underground map. Again, lots of detail. That, I think, is a good indicator of which maps out to be considered (just a hint bobntamr, as you search those 200 plus files on that Russian site).
Eh, I guess that could work, although I know of some good maps which arent big at all... but anyway, that's quite unnecessary, as you can just look at the mini-map(most map sites have a screenshot of this beside the map) to tell if it has detail. If you look closely at the picture, you can see mountains, trees, etc. by very slightly darkened areas. (i.e. a lot of trees on grass will make the green on the mini-map slightly darker). A map where there are a lot of darkened areas splattered all over the place mean's it has lots of trees, mountains, etc. which means it's at least solidly detailed. (granted, there is no way to see flowers and such on the mini-map)
Anyway, this way seems quicker and more fool-proof to me.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 30, 2002 11:57 PM |
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The Russian site bobntamr1 is sifting through does have the mini-map feature, and it is useful, but I've been fooled by it before. Elevation changes show up as different colors too, for example. I downloaded one map (I can't remember the name) that looked really good in mini-map--lots of varied terrain in a somewhat natural-looking pattern, but when I opened it, I found it had very few landscape objects on it, and it looked really bad. The map's author spent a lot of time sculpting the land with the terrain editor and the elevation tool, but spent too little time placing landscape objects to make the map look really good. I was disappointed, and that's when I switched to the file-size guage. File size does not lie. Big files mean lots of detail.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 31, 2002 12:48 AM |
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blah the maps i found were just as you say lalth but, if a mapmaker were to use these as templates to make other maps?? I dont think there would be anything wrong with that .. or would there? yes this is a question for clarification.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 31, 2002 01:16 AM |
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Quote:
blah the maps i found were just as you say lalth but, if a mapmaker were to use these as templates to make other maps?? I dont think there would be anything wrong with that .. or would there? yes this is a question for clarification.
I don't know, bobntamr1. As an academic, I'm pretty sensitive about intellectual property issues, and I wouldn't want to use anybody else's work in any way without permission. Now, could it be done? Probably, and probably without legal repercussions, but is it ethical? That's another issue altogether.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 31, 2002 01:25 AM |
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hence the question... because i am not sure. I dont want to take the credit from someone else... thats for sure.
My primary thinking was this::
find a couple of them that are good templates for terrain but not so good for play...like the ones with no monsters or treasure boxes.
then ask the creator (if they can speak english or the web site owner) permission to use it as a template to rearrange and use...
I dont really know, I don't think it ethical to "steal" someones work, but terrain is 3/4 of the battle for me in making a map. And if someone cannot make a map that is good for play...realisticaly...then whjy not use it to add all of the regular stuff we are used to? with permission.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 31, 2002 01:44 AM |
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With permission, of course, you could do whatever the author allowed.
Are you being hammered so hard for new maps, bobntamr1, that you're gonna get back into the mapmaking business? If so, I'm a little surprised that you find the land sculpting to be the hardest part of the process. For me, it's placing the landscape objects that takes so much time. Of course, that's because I'm ridiculously meticulous about it, but I think that's what it takes to get a truly realistic look with this editor.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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japjer
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 31, 2002 03:26 AM |
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some comments on dunwold
well i played this one against bob, so bob, you know my opinion about it, and for 2-players this opinion stands, just not for the 3-way.
the person in the middle imo has a disadvantage of being able to get stormed 2 ways and 3 ways if you count the middle entrance.
my suggestion: make the guards between guards stronger (i played it on intermediate where they are VERY weak, but even on advanced it'd too easy to get to the middle player), also work something out so the others can't run to the opponents in 5 turns. blocking would give the middle player no access to the territory around the town especcially the part in the north-east, maybe placing a teleporter that leads to that place makes things better (it would double the distance between players and make dunwold more important).
i like the map in general, and would love to play it in a 3-way, but it isn't possible at this point. with a few small adjustments it could be one of my favorite maps (not that i would make it 'my dog days' or anything  ).
uhmm, that's it!
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted October 31, 2002 11:43 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 31 Oct 2002
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Thanks for the suggestions on Dunwold. I could easily close off the boundary between territories-eliminate the blue/purple bridge, place one tree to close off the teal-purple pass. Or, as you suggest, I could strengthen the border guardians. I'm partial to the second idea because I prefer for each player's home territory to be vulnerable from at least two directions (or 3, in the case of the purple player). I tried to compensate purple by giving them the quickest and fastest access to the gates of the city of Dunwold. Blue & Teal have to travel nearly twice as far to get there.
BTW, it's my understanding that most ToH players prefer to play 2 player games only, and in the 2 player version, purple is eliminated as a choice for a starting town. Is that one adequately balanced in your opinion?
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted November 01, 2002 12:17 AM |
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Well, before going any further, you'll just have to ask the makers of those maps. If they agree, then of course we can use them. If not, I still suggest we pursue it.
My idea is - there are a lot of mapmakers out there, but only a few actually make good maps. The others either can decorate well but can't make the map fun, or can make the map decent in fun-level but can't decorate worth snow. So I suggest maybe we hire some people to simply make map templates, and then some other people can make maps out of the templates. This way we can maybe make the ratio of good maps to snowty maps higher in ToH, by getting people who are good at specific things to do those things and not the whole map. Obviously, people who can make an entire map well wont hafto be involved in this, but I think that this will be good for those who have trouble making a map good by themselves, and it will keep ToH maps fresh, thus preventing the oh-so-dreaded "hex memorization" mentioned by h3 vets in numerous other threads.
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted November 01, 2002 01:22 AM |
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very good points and I like the idea i think this is a avenue we SHOULD definatly persue.
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Prince_Legolas
Bad-mannered
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posted November 01, 2002 04:21 PM |
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Quote:
Well as the first post of the new thread, I will go ahead and start off by giving you all some comments I have on maps:
Magic forest...my hat is always off to JB for his talent in maps, but I would like to say that it is a serious rush map.
I am not that worried about it as it is not one of my favorites, but other gamers may be.
Unknown lands....The map is one of the funnest I have played, but it takes a long time to load, and sometimes with a 56k impossible. Being patient (for a change) i waited with a 56ker for 25 minutes for the loadiong game status, then another 20 minutes for the script to work, it had not worked yet and I couldn't wait anymore. Too much for me. Anyways Doc is looking into the possibilities with some of the beggining script to quicken the set-up time. It may be the question of startign towns, i dont know, but I do love the map without question.
Chameleon...great map fun time with the portals hehe. No question this is one of the maps that I will play often.
Dark son...pretty good map, but i think a objective isn't quite right for ToH? The objective for those who dont know is to knock out a computer emporer/emporess. And killing your opponent doesn't win the game.
which brings up the next question do we accept ANY maps that have a objective other than annialation?
emp game...same thing
clash of the titans...too much for ground cover, i think.
(my dictionary need some glue and tape still
I agree Magic Forest is a crappy map, Zagloba has 12 wins on that map thats really funny. On Chamelion map is no guards at all to your opponent i think it is no map for multiplayer if you can rush to your opponent, as you remember mostly playable and fun maps in homm 3 had strong guards and time to develop your hero and make good plan it is maps like Showdown, Giant War, Hg 2,3 , Battle of Bastards, those maps had always big randomness, and map like Desert War was playing only by players like Flamingo who like to take easy wins same thing i found now with homm 4 [AA]Flipmo[RO] played 21 games on Dog Days i think Dog Days is new prototype of Desert War and he gonna be like Flamingo who played 120+ games on Desert war in homm 3. The idea in homm 4 i think same like in homm 3 so i think maps should be always created for same idea, only different is Tactics and balance of skills,monsters,artefacts, economy and other things. For example zud have played on Giant War everytime and i am pretty sure it is his favourite map ask him i think he was never bored on that map it is show what good maps will be never bored. Some people saying what maps created by humans will be bored after some time, but thats not true they will be bored only for those who didnt found real fun or playing on maps what are not fun at all. It is like in chess some people bored after playing it for long time but some masters playing it for all they life and they write books about it. Heroes it is chess of 21 century
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Prince_Legolas
Bad-mannered
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posted November 01, 2002 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
the existence of this map is a bug itself..
.. could be saved alot of online hommers time and game appetite if some maps were mysteriously vaporise
Yeah i agree thats pretty Boring map, it is not for multiplayer, 2 towns at the starting and free way to enemy you will be bored very fast
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