|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
posted April 15, 2007 10:40 PM |
|
|
I think we should make hellfire is based on knowledge, not changing demon lord high KN to SP, if hellfire is changed to be based on KN, high knowlege means helfire will deal higher damage, and for the damage, it should like hellfire + fiery wrath dmg (this thing has very good bonus dmg when i have great number of stacks), also, with exp destructive+master of fire+exp gating, make searing fire add about 15 % chance hellfire will deal 3x3 aoe or add a 15% chance hellfire will do 200% damage instead of only 50% damage boost, i think we should make some use of destructive magic, not for their destructive spells, but to modify hellfire or something like this, because demon lord chance to get destructive is higher than dark magic (not sure, but often offered destructive instead of dark), besides, demon lord has very low SP, and changing to high SP instead of knowledge will drain demon lord mana to cast destructive magic, not only that, high SP demon lord and destructive magic is a pushover, because dungeon is far better.
For now, the only use of destructive magic for demon lord is the armor reduction effect from master of fire, with demon lord very high atk, and 1/2 enemies defense, it would means that all demon lords creatures deal double damage, i've tried that once, and it deliver so much destruction, even if your creatures number is reduced to 1/3, with lucky atk, it will deal an almost one hit kill blow to low def faction (like warlock and inferno). But, picking destructive won't allow inferno player to take down massive number of high level tier as easy as witk dark (ex: 40 lv 7 on dragon pass map), however, some lv 7 creatures at that map can be defeated with destructive easier than with dark.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 15, 2007 10:45 PM |
|
|
great post Destro23  Obviously coming from experience, not theory-crafting.. I like it 
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 15, 2007 10:53 PM |
|
|
Yeah, Destro23, Doomforge and Sanyu, i learn many things from them, very good post indeed
Almost forgot, about pit lords farming Destro23 mentioned above, how can we do this?
|
|
Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
|
|
posted April 15, 2007 11:44 PM |
|
|
Well to be fair, I havn't tried it much.. it has been a plan for games that have ended earlier than I have been able to start it.
I am certainly hoping they are not unsummoned after battle, it seems a useless ability if they are. I'll test it out a bit tonight. Hopefully I won't be disappointed.
Thanks for the compliments. I think I have 20+ games now playing inferno vs humans on toh. And 20 more playing either necro or dungeon.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 12:11 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I am certainly hoping they are not unsummoned after battle, it seems a useless ability if they are. I'll test it out a bit tonight. Hopefully I won't be disappointed.
They are! Any creatures rased as Pit Lords during battle by Arch Devils are unsummoned after combat.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 12:43 AM |
|
Edited by dschingi at 00:45, 16 Apr 2007.
|
Excellent posts Sanyu, Doomforge and Destro23! Such tips are always welcome. Like most here I'm not really a fan of Inferno... I guess their lack of shooters and strong magic in early game just makes creeping a bit difficult for people who don't play Inferno excessively, and if you don't succeed with something you try to go other ways (i.e. other factions) 
One thing I found useful is to build the upgrade for getting Cerberi as soon as possible. Combined with Gating and Hellfire (which can be improved by splitting them) they have a quite good damage output. Against creatures with low initiative they can easily play hit&run, too, and use gated troops as cannon fodder. However this drains your mana extremely fast at the beginning, so you should check before every battle if you still have enough for some hellfire.
Doomforge, you see Deleb as the ne plus ultra, but remember that other heroes can get War machines, too They won't get Deleb's fireball but the ballista will still do much damage and the tent is useful as well. I understand that having the skill on the first day is a great advantage for Deleb, but that doesn't mean it won't be useful if another hero gets after a few level ups.
Apart from what Destro and Sanyu said, I don't really know many ways to counter Dark magic with Inferno. Try to get Resistance ability (15% is quite good) and artifacts of course. There is also Marbas with his specialty. I think he can be very annoying for Destructive and Dark casters...
However, having Dark yourself should be similarly annoying to your opponent as well. It depends on each faction of course, but not all of them have a counter to it. For those who rely on Cleaning, they may not have enough mana to cast it multiple times after your familiars drained their mana.
@Destro23
Unfortunately you will be disappointed about the Pit Lords...
____________
open source for an open mind
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 07:26 AM |
|
|
I find that cerberi to cerberus is not that needed asap, sure it's very good, but you should scout the map first, if most important guard are slow creeps, familiar+demons are enough, and with pack or lots of cerberi (not cerberus) for some fast unit and lv 2 or lv 3 creeps, last night i try heroic difficulty with grok as main hero and marbas as second hero in map heritage, familiar and demons was enough to creep mostly minotaur, zombie, cerberi, and some cerberus, yeah i was lucky that all the guardian of my mines are mostly minotaur (and their upg), zombie (and their upg), and cerberi (also cerberus), it seems i was lucky after all, because of that creeps, i can creep everyday after having familiar upg and demons building, also cerberi is very useful even if not upged.
There is reason to not upg cerberi asap, not upg ing cerberi asap make me easy to lure any neural creeps to my trap, because their main focus only familiar, but if you upg to creberus, the good point is blood fury tactic can be applied, yet it's sometimes ruined your battlefield plan because enemies will focus familiar and cerberus at 60-40 or 50-50 when you make one wrong move, it's different with cerberi, they will focus on familiar 80%, this make them easy to be lured with gated familiar, or gated cerberi, adv gating is a must, if not, build infernal loom, +10% gating bonus is good, because this make neutral creeps focus their atk on gated stacks, and if you can lure them far away yet reachable by your original familiar, when in one turn your familiar can act twice, strike them with full force. Inferno creeping key only lie on how good you posisition your creatures in atacking, waiting or defending, and taking advantage of atb bar, it's not that hard to creep very fast with inferno (no deleb). Inferno problem is only if they fight dark magic user.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 08:14 AM |
|
|
I guess I must say something about Deleb. I would use her even if she didn't have her fireball because war machines corresponds good with demonlords stats. I can assure you that results would be the same with and without fireball. All creeps dead and 0 losses. If somebody says Deleb is overpowered i suggest him to look at Havez and Vittorio. Those 2 are as strong as Deleb and people don't whine when somebody uses them. I just don't know why people make a big deal when deleb wants to see some action. I know it might be boring to kill everything without any thinking but how much do you think when you use autocombat only when creeping with academy?
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 08:25 AM |
|
|
Not exactly. I've played both of them and they cannot reach Deleb's damage. It is especially surprising for Vittorio who can get triple ballista AND adds attack every two levels...
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 10:16 AM |
|
|
Deleb also starts with advanced machines, which allows you to reach tent and ballista BOTH at level 4 at the latest. Since you need both with inferno, this is a huge advantage.. heroes like, say, havez, need some time to get both of those skills, since they start with basic w-machines, and deleb is certain to have them very fast..
of course playing Deleb is nothing wrong, but it's sooo boring 
|
|
sdfx
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 10:37 AM |
|
|
What counts is the demonlord's attack stat. If it is high enough creeps will attack a war machine instead of main familiar stack. Then familiars can go away from war machines and watch the sweet picture of AI whacking a poor tent while ballista finishes everything off. Also a demonlord can get a lot of distracting fodder by gating which will easily give ballista enough time to do its job.
Vittorio has ~2x less fodder and do almost the same damage:
45%*3(triple ballista) vs 75%*2 -> 135% < 150%
Deleb gets 20/5 = 4 damage more per level but Vittorio gets *(1+2.5%) damage boost per level so let's assume they deal equal ballista damage but Deleb is better creeper because she has more fodder thanks to gating.
Havez is way different than those 2 because it's a magic hero. Anyway, he is overall a better creeper than Deleb or Vittorio but it's not because of war machines only. His gremlin's repair, flaming arrows and spells are all a huge factor here.
____________
|
|
Sanyu
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 11:28 AM |
|
|
I never used Deleb since the forum started discussing things like she has too good a speciality...
@Chaosdragon
I like your idea of master of fire -50% defense trick. I should apply this as one of my strategies against Fortress/Sylvan.
@dschingi
Upgrading to cerberi is nice but 15 wood!?!?! Also, while hellfire drains quite a lot of mana, I find Inferno's mana pool nearly infinite...And while Marbas could be a counter against dark magic or magic factions, we surely do not want to depend on just one inferno hero when fighting them...
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 11:43 AM |
|
|
Quote:
@Chaosdragon
I like your idea of master of fire -50% defense trick. I should apply this as one of my strategies against Fortress/Sylvan.
It's a good one alright!  However you must build mage guild 3 to make sure you have the fireball plus these factions are a bit tricky:
Sylvan may resist as it always gets luck plus it has the unicorns' aura. On the other hand fortress has some armoured units for which the effect does not work, the shieldguards and the blackbear riders. Not that it won't be useful, I'm just saying that you may be tricked into fireballing them to no effect 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Sanyu
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 11:47 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
@Chaosdragon
I like your idea of master of fire -50% defense trick. I should apply this as one of my strategies against Fortress/Sylvan.
It's a good one alright! However you must build mage guild 3 to make sure you have the fireball plus these factions are a bit tricky:
Sylvan may resist as it always gets luck plus it has the unicorns' aura. On the other hand fortress has some armoured units for which the effect does not work, the shieldguards and the blackbear riders. Not that it won't be useful, I'm just saying that you may be tricked into fireballing them to no effect
Thanks for alerting me to that.
|
|
sdfx
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 12:13 PM |
|
|
I don't like the fact that war machines, log, attack, dark and luck are almost ALWAYS obvious picks for a demonlord. The only exception is enlightenment and maybe light can replace attack sometimes but that's it. It's quite annoying.. I like the idea of 50% def reduction but it's really not an option when you have to drop one of the "main" demonlord's skills.
____________
|
|
Sanyu
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 12:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I don't like the fact that war machines, log, attack, dark and luck are almost ALWAYS obvious picks for a demonlord. The only exception is enlightenment and maybe light can replace attack sometimes but that's it. It's quite annoying.. I like the idea of 50% def reduction but it's really not an option when you have to drop one of the "main" demonlord's skills.
Not really. War machines is usually not mandatory if you already picked logistics since both skills are not supportive of each other. Attack and luck are to be picked together. Dark or destructive depends on the player's tactics. And if you are offered light, don't pick another magic skill, since demonlords aren't supposed to concentrate so much on magic; with enlightenment, you can skip attack skill. In fact, Defense is a good skill. At least you won't have 2-3 defense endgame...
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 12:47 PM |
|
|
I agree with felun, deleb is useful even without fireball
Sure, not only fireball that will keep no loses, almost forgot, when i try heroic mode with grok, i also got adv war machines, balista and tent at lv 5, this makes even in heroic i suffer no loses, my only problem is gold.
It's true that vittorio and havez are the same, they can't match deleb damage, yes, but with their war machines even no fireball + tent, it's the same with deleb, they can creeps everyday with no loses in heroic at map heritage, so deleb even without fireball is powerful, same for vittorio and havez.
Quote:
@Chaosdragon
I like your idea of master of fire -50% defense trick. I should apply this as one of my strategies against Fortress/Sylvan.
It work well againts any faction, unlike dark, vs necro it's useless. Besides those armor reducing effect and searing fires, destructive has no other use for demonlord, however, i admit that it's most useful againts sylvan and necro. Anyone here ever try haven's fiery wrath? at late game it's far more powerful than hellfire.
Quote:
Not really. War machines is usually not mandatory if you already picked logistics since both skills are not supportive of each other. Attack and luck are to be picked together. Dark or destructive depends on the player's tactics. And if you are offered light, don't pick another magic skill, since demonlords aren't supposed to concentrate so much on magic; with enlightenment, you can skip attack skill. In fact, Defense is a good skill. At least you won't have 2-3 defense endgame...
Agreed, demon lord is one of the most flexible hero, their build is so varied, it depends on which skill offered, besides demon lord has almost same chance to get 80% of the skills, except enlightment , light magic, summoning magic, and leadership (2% for them).
|
|
sdfx
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 01:01 PM |
|
|
Without war machines inferno can be almost unplayable - there are fights(Elders, Mages, shooters) when I place fodder only and 1 main fodder stack(demons), gate them all and let ballista do the trick.
Log -> swift gating is always important against shooters. TA is excellent too, +30% movement points is always great, so again absolutely no way to drop it.
Dark with frenzy and master of mind is extremly powerful creeper. Mass slow initiative reduction is so huge and mass confusion allows attacking with no retal and it simply owns shooters. But yes, light can be better overall - it gives so much needed dark protection and the best late game mass spells: mass haste, mass endurance.. and has resurrection.
So maybe in some scenario it would be ok to take log, light, luck, war machines. Defense would still be the 6th skill and only if enlightenment wasn't offered.
____________
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 01:38 PM |
|
|
|
Agreed. But without war machines, inferno is still okay againts elder and archie, because you have dark magic. Besides, even with war machines at early and mid game, druid elder and arhcmages will destroy you easily (except deleb), avoid them until you have big stack of nightmare and cerberus + tactic, or have pit lords and TA, however if you want to kill those anoying stacks asap, there is another way, it is to use hellfire + 4-6 sucubus mistress split to 1 each + full stacks of demons, with those, druid elder and archmage will fall easily, but this strategy will easily drain your gold. Another way is to use horde (80-100+) stacks of horned overseer + TA, that thing also work againts druid elder and archmage problems, but you need high atk stat, better if you have atk and battlefrenzy and hellfire (optional), with this, you can kill elder and archie early. But, i suggest to avoid them, unless they guard very important thing for you.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 01:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
t's true that vittorio and havez are the same, they can't match deleb damage, yes, but with their war machines even no fireball + tent, it's the same with deleb, they can creeps everyday with no loses in heroic at map heritage, so deleb even without fireball is powerful, same for vittorio and havez.
Thats exactly what i ment when i was saying that they are equally strong with Vittorio and Havez
Taking War machines with other hero has a major disadvantage. You have too many skills and you cant get expert war machines + ballista + tent as fast as you can with those other heroes. And you need them ASAP so whats the point in taking other hero if you want those war machines anyway?
____________
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
