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Beowolf
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 02:04 PM |
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As for creeping casters, Alastor's speciality can be of much help. However, he needs to be at least at level 8 when fighting druids/edruids to disable their spells, 11 when facing magi and 16 if we dont want archmagi to wax us with fireball. Too bad he starts with sorcery and not dark magic...
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
As for creeping casters, Alastor's speciality can be of much help. However, he needs to be at least at level 8 when fighting druids/edruids to disable their spells, 11 when facing magi and 16 if we dont want archmagi to wax us with fireball. Too bad he starts with sorcery and not dark magic...
That is the major reason why he is not popular among players...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 02:39 PM |
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Yeah , the truth is that wrong starting skill disqualifies a hero , even if he has good special. Sorcery is obviously wrong skill for demonlord.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted April 16, 2007 02:50 PM |
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Aye, it would be nice if they made the campaign hero with the same special - but starting with dark magic - available normally. Or just change Alastors starting skill to dark magic.
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 16, 2007 07:57 PM |
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IN some cases players don't allow hero choice. I usually prefer to take random heroes in my games. Under these conditions it is nessecary to take war machines on a hero starting with logs, luck, attack or something similar.. and yes sadly the heroes who start with sorcery in inferno are somewhat useless. The war machines are not nesecity for creeping early in the match, but they are nessecary to minimize loses in major battles week 2-3 for major treasures, artifacts, breaking ect.
Ballista is a big bonus for any hero with a high attack skill, I don't find it nessecary for creeping with inferno though, nor for later game battles. I do require a tent for some battles though, especially when risking an early utopia to find it full.
I don't think anyone mentioned Nymus.. this is another top notch hero for inferno creeping and end games. Skill start with luck is good. As is his special in the late game. I know the math doesn't claim it is. But with Luck ---> Swarming Gate, I will often take leadership and logs with this hero to provide swift gating and gate master. I've gated some stacks 2x the size of the original stack with this set up at about lv23-24, this is using 2x gating structure in town and the 2 gate perks. Hes good for creeping just due to easy access to exp luck. Lucky stack of 50-75 familiars will wreck stuff.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 08:04 PM |
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Nymus adds a little; +8% at level 20 or so.. someone counted it in some topic and it looked extremely weak. Nymus sucks; Luck is very common for demonlords, too. Ok, it's good that it's available from the beginning, but having teleport&logistics from the beginning like grok does seems much, much better.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 16, 2007 08:19 PM |
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Certainly it does, and I would never pick nymus over grok, nebiros, or deleb. Just saying if you are going random, hes a playable hero. And can be built for some power gating later on.
I also have a feeling that his % increase to gating is not based off the initial skill, nor is it a linear gating at level 10 = gating skill +10%.
The Number of creatures summoned through gating is increased 1% per level.
I have a feeling that with abilities like swarming gate your additional gated troops are factored in after the gate, not before. Its really the only thing that can explain some of the ridiculous stacks I have gated with him.
Imagine your gating a stack of 200 Familiars. Lets assume no buildings or gate master has been taken. At exp gating you will hit 35% of the stack size, so 70 familiars. If your swarming gate triggers your going to get 140 + 20% at around level 20 so thats about 168 familiars total. +28 is alot from a gating.
With the gating structures and gate master this number increases significantly. Again I don't feel he is a first pick hero. Hes probably my 4th pick overall though.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2007 09:40 PM |
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The math of Nymus special is like Destro23 mentioned, i never calculate it, but from my experience, it's like what Destro23 says.
About Nymus special, Doomforge is right about one thing, his special sucks, but, as Destro23 said, it's different if you have infernal loom, gate master also a big boost (but the chance is slim, about 2% to get leadership).
But, in overall view about Nymus, he is one of the best hero besides deleb, grok, nebiros. If i randomed inferno hero, i don't mind if i get grok, nebiros, deleb, nymus, and marbas, yes, marbas is also one of the best hero, not because of his special, but fast access to exp defend, vitality, evasion and protection is a big help to kill master hunter, druid elder, and archmage early, and it's far easily than with nymus (grok and nebiros are tie with marbas, deleb is the crazy winner). No hellwrath, unless hellfire is reworked to do much more dmg, i will never pick hellwrath.
It seems that even grawl is tied with another inferno heroes except deleb, alastor, and jezebeth. I have to admit that early access to searing fire and master of fire are also a big help than sorcery thing. Maybe jezebeth and alastor are hellfire hero, with double mana regeneration, they can take advantage of hellfire more often than other inferno heroes.
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blink
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 02:06 PM |
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Just wanted to correct a misperception here. People are saying that Vittorio increases the ballista's attack by 1 every 2 levels. In fact, he increases it by 1 every single level. His ballista is flat out stronger than Deleb's.
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 02:41 PM |
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Quote:
Just wanted to correct a misperception here. People are saying that Vittorio increases the ballista's attack by 1 every 2 levels. In fact, he increases it by 1 every single level. His ballista is flat out stronger than Deleb's.
I don't know about the 1 every ? levels but what I do know is that it is much more damaging than Deleb's ballista. Much more damaging.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 03:18 PM |
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Yeah, the dmg of deleb balista is not that high compared to vittorio, because all war machines except vittorio's never get increased atk, i think in previous heroes, all war machines get +atk skill from hero atk. But it doesn't matter because deleb balista deals aoe damage.
Now back to topic, is horned demon worth upged asap? (cerberi is enough, besides upg cerberi to cerberus asap will delay the development of inferno town, especially on heroic difficulty)
Somehow, i find that explosion is useful for early creeping if you can position well your creatures and the gated ones, besides by using explosion horned overseer is not countered.
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, the dmg of deleb balista is not that high compared to vittorio, because all war machines except vittorio's never get increased atk, i think in previous heroes, all war machines get +atk skill from hero atk. But it doesn't matter because deleb balista deals aoe damage.
Now back to topic, is horned demon worth upged asap? (cerberi is enough, besides upg cerberi to cerberus asap will delay the development of inferno town, especially on heroic difficulty)
Somehow, i find that explosion is useful for early creeping if you can position well your creatures and the gated ones, besides by using explosion horned overseer is not countered.
Horned demons are much better too when upgraded. I don't know why many would advise against it. And yes, explosion rocks, especially with Grok.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, the dmg of deleb balista is not that high compared to vittorio, because all war machines except vittorio's never get increased atk, i think in previous heroes, all war machines get +atk skill from hero atk. But it doesn't matter because deleb balista deals aoe damage.
Now back to topic, is horned demon worth upged asap? (cerberi is enough, besides upg cerberi to cerberus asap will delay the development of inferno town, especially on heroic difficulty)
Somehow, i find that explosion is useful for early creeping if you can position well your creatures and the gated ones, besides by using explosion horned overseer is not countered.
If your going for grok, yes! Definitely. Horned overseers all the way. For nebiros, I wouldn't be so quick to upgrade them.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 11:40 PM |
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Yeah, because nebiros is better with cerberus, with that, shooter can be killed early. Still i always too lazy to upg hell hound to cerberus asap even with nebiros, because cerberus don't do that much dmg, their dmg output only 1/2 of familiar, and 15 wood is too damn crazy, imo hell hound is enough, but if cerberus is needed asap to take very important thing, then i have no choice.
About overseer, yup, i agree with Sanyu, overseer and familiar is worth upg-ed, especially familiar, imp to familiar and demon to overseer is very huge boost, especially dmg and survivability. But, upg-ing overseer too early often delay town development, as long as there are no dangerous shooter that must be killed asap, i won't upg my demon to overseer, it's the same for hell hound, but if there are too many shooter guarding very important things, based on my experience, it's better to upg demon to overseer than hell hound to cerberus (even with nebiros), because overseer deals more dmg than cerberus, even after the shooters reduce their number, besides, cerberus is too precious too be sacrificed, but if a little necessary sacrifice is required to take important thing asap, sigh, no choice then.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 10:29 AM |
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umm, cerberus is a singular form of "cerberi"  Like in latin second declension, "-us" ending indicates that the plural form will have "-i" ending. Quite confusing  Magi, cerberi, succubi etc.
I guess you've meant the hellhounds?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 11:15 AM |
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Oops, yes, i mean hell hound, not cerberi. I will edit it to avoid confusion.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 20, 2007 08:43 PM |
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Edited by Destro23 at 20:44, 20 Apr 2007.
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Something I tried last night on a random map which seems to be working very very well for me.
I started the game with Jezzebelle /uggg in tavern was an equally garbage hero, day 2 another garbage hero, day 3 I saw Marbas there which was ok, but now Jezebelle was already level 4 and so I decided to just continue with her.
Now Level 1 I took Hellfire, level 2 I took mana regeneration, level 3 I was offered destructive magic and I took it. I started the creeping very slowly as the map was very difficult. By the end of week 1 I was level 8 respectable. I had taken 2x succubus dwellings, and 3x horned demon dwellings. So I neglected all other armies in my town for the time being. I left town on day 2 week 2 with 22 succubus mistress and 100 horned demons (give or take).
Troop placement for all combats was 1, 1, 1, 1
0, 96, 0, 22 ( succubus here) These were placed in the bottom corner of the field. IN the first round of combat succubus gated tot he empty square beside her, the 1 stacks gated to apprpriate places on the map to hinder enemy movement, and the 96 stack gated into the center of the map to provide a nice lure for the comp. This strategy worked very very well.
By the end of week 2 I was focusing fire on single stacks ( by now I have hellfire, and searing fires.) Then using soulfire to explode the corpses to regain mana. I was creeping extremely fast. I wish I had taken some screenshots. Some week 2 battles included 42 Silver Unicorns, 28 wights, 13 collosus, 83 Earth Elementals, and some other very large very large fights. I took dark magic and mass slow shortly after week 3 started and the slaughter continued.
By the end of week 4 I had 58 succubus mistress, 250 horned demons and took a utopia which was the black, shadow, and spectral dragon variety. I lost 30 horned demons here and got the best utopia spoils I have seen yet.
Staff of the netherworld, ring of speed, dragon bone greaves. With the money I saved by not recruiting any of the other creatures to fight with I fully upgraded all my dwellings, week 5 purchased all my creatures, and broke into my opponents land through 49 Paladins, this combat killed 3 nightmares. 3 days later I arrived at my opponents Haven town and attacked him inside his walls. All the light magic in the world was no use against the army. He had a stack of 57 paladins, a handful of inquisitors, 6 Angels ( non upgraded ), and throngs of other creatures, griffons was a mere 90+. Sporting a unicorn horn bow my succubus tore his forces to shreds, while taking a move to dodge the battle dive ability. After the griffons landed nightmares, cerberi, and arch devils made short work of them as the stacks from swarming gate started dropping behind his walls.
Oddly enough my hero in this game developed very differently then a normal demon lord will.. But I don't see the stat differences as a major complication to this strategy. At the final I was level 22 with 16 att, 10 def, 8 spell power, and 16 knowledge. The defense was augmented by a shield of crystal ice taken from the collosus week 2.
All in all this was a great game against a skilled haven player, which on the first week I was sure I was doomed. My heroes and army looked weak. But I decided to try for the alternate mana regen and hellfire game and it worked really well.
The only shortcoming here is that I think the 2 succubus dwellings were a very very nessecary peice of the pie. As was taking them week 1 very shorthanded.
Anyway.. just another strat that can be used if need be.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 20, 2007 08:47 PM |
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I also thought about Jezebeth or however it's spelled and succubi+hellfire, but I guess it wouldn't be that powerful without all of those external dwellings.
Anyway, gj.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 20, 2007 08:51 PM |
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What's wrong with Jezebeth? Creature specialists are amongst my favorites for any faction.
oh yeah I know, because she starts with Magic Insight 
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2007 09:36 PM |
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Yeah, she is just incomplete without phantom forces. That would really rock with all those succubi..
A bit unlucky for haven at the end(castle walls = no jousting) but overall a really good game.
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