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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2011 09:30 PM |
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Yes JJ I have no arguments in the form you want them. You want a single word defining the feeling of abhorrence, but then you will want to discuss that word and so on. For two people which do not have same moral standards or sensitivity it is impossible to discuss the "why".
I feel repulsion towards porn/prostitution because they hurt my sensitivity. Such thing is at the complete opposite side of how I see man-woman relationship, this union being the backbone of mankind future and past. Their relation is the most rich and intimate state of grace existing, exposing and shattering it publicly as it was meat consummation only comforts me on the idea that the occident lost any healthy values and is on perdition. Spiritually speaking.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 09:39 PM |
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Quote:
I feel repulsion towards porn/prostitution because they hurt my sensitivity. Such thing is at the complete opposite side of how I see man-woman relationship, this union being the backbone of mankind future and past. Their relation is the most rich and intimate state of grace existing, exposing and shattering it publicly as it was meat consummation only comforts me on the idea that the occident lost any healthy values and is on perdition. Morally speaking.
You can have your opinion, and you can set standards for yourself. But in this casem since there is no damage, you have no right to judge.
Example: Say, you think that a meal is something quite special and should be cherished. Relished bit for bit and piece for piece, best taken with candles and your beloved one, never eat too much, never too fast.
That's completely ok, but there aree still people who just like a burger. Or eat fast, while going, in plain view.
In Jancient apan prostitution was an art, and prostitutes were well respected, their services considered art.
Sexual satisfaction is a good in itself - what are ugly people or disfigured or handicapped people supposed to do, for example? Why should they be ashamed to PAY for something nice no one may give to them freely? Why judge and condemn those who deliver those services? They were well respected in ancient days, because they served a very important social function: even the worst-off could experience a moment of happiness.
And that is supposed to be bad?
Sorry, pal, I can't follow you. You have your high views on men and women and what their union is supposed to be. But imagine you were ugly or disfigured or handicapped... then what?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 10, 2011 10:03 PM |
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Not to mention - prostitutes were very valued during wartime to take care of soldiers far away from home.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted December 10, 2011 10:10 PM |
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And well, who knows what'd happen if some individuals couldn't get paid sex. Here's to these unsung heroes who allow grubby paws on their bodies for money.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 10, 2011 11:06 PM |
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Quote:
And well, who knows what'd happen if some individuals couldn't get paid sex. Here's to these unsung heroes who allow grubby paws on their bodies for money.
Well, it's a living 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2011 11:22 PM |
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Yeah, but assassin is a living as well.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted December 11, 2011 07:02 AM |
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Quote:
Yeah, but assassin is a living as well.
Hey, something wrong with my chosen profession? I'll have you know that I am paid well for my services, as is my father and as was his father before him. Trust me, this family is not one you wish to insult. Oh, and some of your greatest unknown heroes were assassins. Yes indeed, all those warlords that randomly died in "power struggles" and heartless dictators who "passed away in the night/ commited suicide" can be attributed to one assassin (with scruples) or another.
Good day to you sir.
*flees before being smote by Cor*
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted December 11, 2011 11:11 AM |
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What warlords? What power-struggles? Silly gnomes. Besides, credit for those goes to the secret services; not to some pesky newb assassins, who clearly do not know which way is up  .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 11, 2011 01:30 PM |
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Quote:
Jancient apan
This sounds so awesome it's instantly added to my dictionary.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 11, 2011 03:08 PM |
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JJ, can keep trying to twist things all you want. The fact is the Bible does not accept or approve of prostitution like you claimed.
The Bible says all prostitutes will burn in hell if they don't repent. The Bible says in Israel prostitutes were to be stoned.
Tamar lived before Israel was formed, before the Law of Moses was given, as I've said. The fact that Bible records people sinning does not mean that God approved of the sin. Nowhere in the text does it imply the Bible accepts or approves of prostitution.
When the Law of Moses was given it was spelled out that the only acceptable sex is sex between a husband and wife. All other sex is sin.
The Law of Moses specifically addressed prostitution, as I quoted, and forbade it.
Quote:
Lev 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a snow; lest the land fall to snowdom, and the land become full of wickedness.
No one can honestly say that verse means the Bible accepts or approves of prostitution, like you claimed the Bible does.
The New Covenant scriptures continued the condemnation of prostitution.
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Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No one can honestly say that that verse means the Bible accepts of approves of prostitution, like you claimed the Bible does. If prostitution were approved of prostitutes would not be cast into hell.
Quote:
Sexual satisfaction is a good in itself - what are ugly people or disfigured or handicapped people supposed to do, for example? Why should they be ashamed to PAY for something nice no one may give to them freely?
Why, handicapped and disfigured people are supposed to meet new people and find someone who is not so shallow that all they see is the disfigurement. Disfigured and handicapped people find love everyday. I'd think sex with someone who loves you and whom you love would be much more satisfying than paying someone to get you off.
And no, sexual satisfaction is not always good in itself. Pedophiles find satisfaction in molesting children. Flashers find sexual satisfaction in flashing. Rapists find sexual satisfaction in raping. Not all forms of sexual satisfaction are good.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 03:47 PM |
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I didn't claim, the Bible APPROVES it.
I said, that the Bible makes a difference between RITUAL harlotry (tenple prostitution), and monetary postitution.
If you read the Bible text correctly, you will seem that there is obviously a codex: Judah knows sje is a harlot, FOR she covered her face.
So, it was probably like in the US: forbidden by law, but tolerated. And I repeat, Judah and Tarim are listed with Jesus's ancestors, so their sin can't have been too big.
For the rest - how about leaving these things to the disfigured and handicapped instead of parenting them?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 11, 2011 05:34 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:38, 11 Dec 2011.
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Quote:
I didn't claim, the Bible APPROVES it.
I said, that the Bible makes a difference between RITUAL harlotry (tenple prostitution), and monetary postitution.
To quote you, from page 35, "THE BIBLE (OT) makes a difference between temple prostitution (which is considered bad (for obvious reasons) and not allowed) and prostitution for money, which not only was allowed, but even accepted - how, for example, would a widowed man have sex, otherwise?"
Now, in the above you appear to be saying the Bible allows and accepts prostitution as long it is not ritual prostitution. If that is not what you intended to say you picked a poor way of wording your thoughts. And if that is not the case, you have no points to make. Some people in Israel obviously went to prostitutes. So what? That does not mean God, the Bible, or Israel in general allowed or accepted prostitution. In fact, I proved the Bible forbids prostitution.
The only difference in ritual prostitution and prostitution where a customer buys sex is that the ritual prostitute gets paid by the pagan temple and often the sex is seen as worship to the false pagan gods. Both kinds of prostitution involve sex the Bible forbids.
Quote:
If you read the Bible text correctly, you will seem that there is obviously a codex: Judah knows sje is a harlot, FOR she covered her face.
So, it was probably like in the US: forbidden by law, but tolerated. And I repeat, Judah and Tarim are listed with Jesus's ancestors, so their sin can't have been too big.
Sure, Juda knew the woman was a harlot. It is not hard to discern who is a street walker in modern times either. I can go to any major city in the US and find hookers walking the street. That does not mean US law tolerates prostitution. Hookers get arrested every day.
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For the rest - how about leaving these things to the disfigured and handicapped instead of parenting them?
You asked what the handicapped are supposed to do if they can't buy a hooker. I told you their time would be better spent meeting new people and thus possibly finding someone who is not so shallow that they can't overlook imperfections, and actually find someone who will love them instead of buying sex. Disfigured and handicapped people find people to love them all the time.
Most of US society finds prostitution to be detrimental enough or immoral enough to outlaw (parts of Nevada being the exception.) Society making laws is not "parenting." If you or anyone else wants to buy a hooker knock yourself out as far as I am concerned. I am perplexed about anyone who wants to buy sex instead of sharing sex with someone who gives a **** about them, however. And yeah, I do think prostitution should remain illegal not only for handicapped people but for the population in general.
Quote:
And I repeat, Judah and Tarim are listed with Jesus's ancestors, so their sin can't have been too big.
News flash. Everyone in Jesus' ancestry was a sinner. The Bible does not sugar coat or white wash what anyone did. David committed adultery and murder. The Bible did not cover it up. The fact that a prostitute was listed in his ancestry does not imply the Bible tolerates, allows, or accepts prostitution. The fact that David is listed in the ancestry does not mean that murder or adultery is not a "big sin."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 11, 2011 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
what are ugly people or disfigured or handicapped people supposed to do
There is always someone who will love you here down. Just oink for it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 07:15 PM |
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Elodin, you just try to coveer up what is actually important here. This passage of the Bible, the way things are recounted, all this means, that prostitution have been a NORMAL, REGULAR occurence. Judah knew his way around, and HE initiated the deal. He knew what he wanted. It's obvious, that he was a regular with the harlots. There is no guilt, no excuse, no repenting, no nothing. He did yomething completely "ok."
The difference to temple or ritual prostitution is that this had been done in the name of one or another goddess of fertility, so this couldn't be accepted with Jahve being the only god.
Quote:
You asked what the handicapped are supposed to do if they can't buy a hooker. I told you their time would be better spent meeting new people and thus possibly finding someone who is not so shallow that they can't overlook imperfections, and actually find someone who will love them instead of buying sex. Disfigured and handicapped people find people to love them all the time.
You shouldn't tell others who don't have your options how to spend their time. And that disfigured and handicapped people find people to love them all the time - yeah, sure. In Hollywood, maybe.
Quote:
Most of US society finds prostitution to be detrimental enough or immoral enough to outlaw (parts of Nevada being the exception.) Society making laws is not "parenting."
That's however, not your point when talking about abortion. I don't think that "most of US society finds prostitution detrimental. It's a joke, that prosstitution is illegal.
Quote:
If you or anyone else wants to buy a hooker knock yourself out as far as I am concerned. I am perplexed about anyone who wants to buy sex instead of sharing sex with someone who gives a **** about them, however. And yeah, I do think prostitution should remain illegal not only for handicapped people but for the population in general.
And I'm perplexed about people who constantly judge others and things which are not their business.
The illegal status of prostitution is just a heavy burden for society, nothing else.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2011 07:40 PM |
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Ok, here's something interesting I stumbled upon.
Look at this wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_therapy
Painfully short, right? Not much more, if you follow the two links, Sensate focusing and sex surrogate.
Now look at the German wiki article:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualtherapie
Strange discrepancy there, right?
We find this there:
Quote:
Für Klienten ohne Sexualpartner arbeiten einzelne Sexualtherapeuten mit Prostituierten mit therapeutischer Kompetenz als Ersatzpartner zusammen. Sexueller Kontakt zwischen Therapeut und Klient wird von den Standesorganisationen als Missbrauch verurteilt und ist in vielen Ländern strafbar (Schweiz: Art. 193 Abs. 1 StGB, Deutschland: § 174 c StGB).Nur wenige Therapeuten erfüllen gleichzeitig die Rolle als Therapeut, Lehrer und Übungspartner. Die Bedeutung körperlicher Erfahrung und körperlicher Begegnung in der Therapie wird aber zunehmend erkannt.
The main points translated: For clients without sexual partner therapists work with prostitutes as surrogate or Ersatz partner.
The closing sentence says, that the significance of real physical contact and action in therapy is more and more acknowledged.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 12, 2011 06:40 AM |
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Way off topic (and we have gotten way way off topic)..but I can not help but wonder what Jesus..a man who stood up for a prostitute, inviting those who were without sin to cast the first stone, and taught that ALL men and women were equal in the eyes of god would think of somebody who is casting stones at such professions, and considering those people to be 'lesser' (even if by only moral standards) *shrugs*
____________
Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 09, 2013 03:07 AM |
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I'm sure everyone's heard of the trolley problem. Here's a somewhat modified version of it (credit goes to Gen Urobuchi).
Suppose there are two cruise ships traveling close to each other, a larger one with 300 people on board, and a smaller one with 200 people on board (for simplicity, let's assume all 500 people are strangers). Both ships are almost full - each of them can only fit one more person, you. There are no lifeboats - only a small, leaky rowboat that you can use to transport yourself from one ship to another.
Suppose both ships simultaneously develop a leak and start sinking. Unless the leaks are fixed, both ships will capsize. You are the only person on either ship that is capable of fixing the leaks, but you only have time to fix one of them. No matter what you do, at least one of the ships will sink, killing everyone on board.
Part 1: What do you do? Do you
A) sit there and do nothing,
B) fix the leak on the 200-person ship (and let the 300-person ship capsize), or
C) fix the leak on the 300-person ship (and let the 200-person ship go under)?
Part 2: (If you answered A or B to Part 1, you can skip this part.) Suppose you decide to fix the leak on the 300-person ship and let the 200-person ship sink. But there's a problem - you're on the 200-person ship, and the 200 people on it found out you're the only person on either ship that can fix the leak. They tell you, "If you go to the 300-person ship and fix their leak, we'll die. We're not letting you leave, and every one of us is willing to fight for our lives. But we won't hurt you if you fix our ship." However, you are armed - you have an assault rifle, grenades, etc, and know how to use them. You can kill everyone on the 200-person ship, get to the 300-person ship, and fix their leak, but to do so you have to personally kill 200 people. Do you
A) stay on the 200-person ship and fix it, letting 300 people die, or
B) kill everyone on the 200-person ship to save 300 people?
Part 3: This time, no one is restraining you. The 300-person ship is still 300 strangers. However, the 200 passengers on the smaller ship are your family members, your significant other (if any), your children (if any), your friends (if any), and other people you know personally and like. Now, do you
A) save the ship with 200 people, some of whom you're close to, or
B) save the ship with 300 strangers?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 09, 2013 03:34 AM |
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Quote:
I'm sure everyone's heard of the trolley problem.
In fact, we discussed it (and several variations) for several pages in this very thread.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 09, 2013 04:24 AM |
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Quote:
Part 2: (If you answered A or B to Part 1, you can skip this part.) Suppose you decide to fix the leak on the 300-person ship and let the 200-person ship sink. But there's a problem - you're on the 200-person ship, and the 200 people on it found out you're the only person on either ship that can fix the leak. They tell you, "If you go to the 300-person ship and fix their leak, we'll die. We're not letting you leave, and every one of us is willing to fight for our lives. But we won't hurt you if you fix our ship." However, you are armed - you have an assault rifle, grenades, etc, and know how to use them. You can kill everyone on the 200-person ship, get to the 300-person ship, and fix their leak, but to do so you have to personally kill 200 people. Do you
A) stay on the 200-person ship and fix it, letting 300 people die, or
B) kill everyone on the 200-person ship to save 300 people?
if I have enough time to kill 200 people, then I certainly have enough time to fix both boats.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 09, 2013 04:48 AM |
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Part 1: C
Part 2: A
Part 3: A
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This thread is pages long: 
