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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 08:23 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 20:24, 14 Apr 2011.
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Claiming in retrospective that the problem shouldnt have been allowed in the first place sounds brilliant and indeed solves the problem at hand (sarcasm detector reaching critical level).
@vlaad... You have gotta be kidding me ???? 
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Vlaad
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Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 14, 2011 08:28 PM |
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@vlaad... You have gotta be kidding me ????
No. Those were national conflicts. Additionaly, the Muslim population was indigenous to the region.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 08:32 PM |
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National LOL, aren'r you the funny one, muslims were never indigenous in bosnia, they came to be during ottoman occupation...
Bosnia is now a muslim country, it wasn't one, kosovo was a part of Yugoslavia, the border with albania was opened, so albanians immigrated... 40 yrs later there were more albanians in kosovo than serbs... kosovo after a conflict, mislim country
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bLiZzArdbOY
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Nerf Herder
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posted April 14, 2011 08:34 PM |
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That's stretching back pretty far in time. Are modern Israelis not nationals either?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted April 14, 2011 08:35 PM |
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I wonder why the burqa is even called a RELIGIOUS thing.
It's not.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 08:37 PM |
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That's stretching back pretty far in time. Are modern Israelis not nationals either?
Jews did the same thing in israel, they immigrated, had kids... got a country which wasnt there before, the only difference is that there was no country there of any kind to begin with
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 14, 2011 08:40 PM |
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christain wearing cross = muslim wearing that moon thingy
muslim wearing vail = christian wearing kkk hood thingy on, both having masked faces
Yeah, except that the kkk hood thingy clearly states "go kill the Others" while the Muslim moon thingy doesn't.
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immigrants see a country, decide they want to live there hence accept the culture of the place they're moving to, immigrants should want to become a part of the new society and not work to make it a new society withing the society, otherwise we get another "NEW muslim country" like bosnia, kosovo as well as civil war within the country....
have you ever been to france, germany ? muslims live in a closed society, dont marry outside their religion, make 3 babies while germans and others make one, while germans work hard to pay taxes to support those babies, as long as muslims want a country within country instead of being a part of the new society they've chosen to move to there will be nothing but conflict... no more bending over, in france there were never women with vails nor fully clothed girls in the swimming pool, thats the way it should be, whoever doesnt like it, move the hell out...
should i be allowed to walk around with a mask on ?
can i have a machete as well and sacrifice animals on the street because I do voodoo ?
In amsterdam you can smoke weed, do so in asia pacific and you might get a death penalty... each country with their own law, respect it or dont go there, simple enough to me
If you think that this is so simple, then you don't live in the same world as me. People emigrate for hundreds of reasons and none of them is because they don't like the culture where they come from (maybe with some theoretical exceptions). Hence, in the vast number of cases they bring this culture with them. Forcing them to disregard it will only alienate them even more from the host society and in the end you'll have this society within society, but faster and with some greater stress on the aggression.
Bosnia and Kosovo are hugely complex topics but if you think that they are "Muslim states" - especially Bosnia - then you clearly haven't done your homework.
I haven't been in France and Germany but in my own country we have two large minorities which are quite closed as societies themselves so I think I have first hand observations on the matter.
As for the "move the hell out" part - that's incredibly simplistic. How, for starters? And where? And moreover - why? In Germany's case these Muslims are the gastarbeiters and their children which (Western) Germany itself summoned roughly two decades ago to improve its economy. How do you imagine to get rid of them - "OK guys, nice job before but now you are a burden so off to the airports, schnell!" That's not how it works, sorry.
I don't think practising voodoo is legal in the first place.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 14, 2011 08:43 PM |
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Except that 2nd and 3rd generation German muslims don't even know what a burqa is.
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Zenofex
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posted April 14, 2011 08:45 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:49, 14 Apr 2011.
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Like the first generation which came from Ataturk-shaped Turkey was all about the burqa.
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smithey
Promising
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
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christain wearing cross = muslim wearing that moon thingy
muslim wearing vail = christian wearing kkk hood thingy on, both having masked faces
Yeah, except that the kkk hood thingy clearly states "go kill the Others" while the Muslim moon thingy doesn't.
Clearly stated that cross = moon thingy, while hood = vail, both associated with a more radical way of thinking and both serving as masks
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Bosnia and Kosovo are hugely complex topics but if you think that they  are "Muslim states" - especially Bosnia - then you clearly haven't done your homework.
I was born in sarajevo which is the capital of bosnia, I visited last year during the film festival in july, I think I have a bit more info than you, and I havent said muslim state, I said a muslim country, there is a difference between the two, however soon enough the differnce will grow smaller, just like it does in turkey.
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I haven't been in France and Germany but in my own country we have two large minorities which are quite closed as societies themselves so I think I have first hand observations on the matter.
Where are you from and what are you talkin about ? Is it religious
minorities ?
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As for the "move the hell out" part - that's incredibly simplistic. How, for starters? And where? And moreover - why? In Germany's case these Muslims are the gastarbeiters and their children which (Western) Germany itself summoned roughly two decades ago to improve its economy. How do you imagine to get rid of them - "OK guys, nice job before but now you are a burden so off to the airports, schnell!" That's not how it works, sorry.
Indeed they were, germans wanted cheap labor, it's biting them in the ass now, now they need to find a way to solve the problem and problem is when I was in turkish part of berlin people didnt know to speak german.... If in berlin there is a large portion of people who dont speak german, you have a problem 
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I don't think practising voodoo is legal in the first place.
the same way walkin around the city in a mask isn't, that was kind of my point from the beginning 
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JollyJoker
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posted April 14, 2011 08:57 PM |
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As I said, prove that the burqa is a religious thing first. The Quoran doesn't say anything about it.
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Vlaad
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ghost of the past
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posted April 14, 2011 09:06 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 02:20, 15 Apr 2011.
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National LOL, aren'r you the funny one, muslims were never indigenous in bosnia, they came to be during ottoman occupation...
Bosnian Muslims didn't come from anywhere, it was the local population that converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation.Quote:
Bosnia is now a muslim country, it wasn't one
Bosnia is not a Muslim country. According to the 2000 estimate, there are as many Christians as Muslims.Quote:
kosovo was a part of Yugoslavia, the border with albania was opened, so albanians immigrated... 40 yrs later there were more albanians in kosovo than serbs... kosovo after a conflict, mislim country
The immigration from Albania was only part of the problem. The high birth rate was more of an issue. In addition, the Albanians lived in Kosovo for hundreds of years and were majority in Kosovo way before WW2. So the problem is nothing like the one in France. Finally, the wars in former Yugoslavia were not religious.
This is getting off topic though.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 14, 2011 09:12 PM |
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christain wearing cross = muslim wearing that moon thingy
muslim wearing vail = christian wearing kkk hood thingy on, both having masked faces
Some atheists might decide to wear KKK hoods, but not Chrisitans. The KKK is about hate and intimidation. All true followers of Jesus follow his teaching to love, do good to, and pray even for their enemies.
Oh, some Christians and Jewish women also wear veils and different sorts of head coverings.
Clicky
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I wonder why the burqa is even called a RELIGIOUS thing.
It's not.
You are wrong. Your interpretation of the Qu'ran it that it is not required. The interpretation of the women who wear the burqa is that it is required. They should have the freedom to practice their own religion rather than being required to practice your religion. If your wife believes it pleases God for her to wear a burqa she should be allowed to. If she does not want to wear a burqq she should not be forced to.
It is about respect, tolerance, and freedom.
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Zenofex
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posted April 14, 2011 09:12 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:36, 14 Apr 2011.
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while hood = vail, both associated with a more radical way of thinking and both serving as masks
Their function is totally different, I don't know on what ground are you comparing them.
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I was born in sarajevo which is the capital of bosnia, I visited last year during the film festival in july, I think I have a bit more info than you, and I havent said muslim state, I said a muslim country, there is a difference between the two, however soon enough the differnce will grow smaller, just like it does in turkey.
Heh, great. So please explain - how come the Muslim part of the Bosnian population makes the country Muslim while at the same time they struggle to keep the Serbs and the Croatians within the same state in order to prevent its future economical collapse? Why are they against the separation of Republika Srpska which has predominantly non-Muslim population? If you are from there, you should have some knowledge regarding the situation after the war.
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Where are you from and what are you talkin about ? Is it religious
minorities ?
Bulgaria. One of these minorities are the Turks which are about 10% of the total population. The division isn't strictly religious but there are attempts in the recent years to be represented as such.
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Indeed they were, germans wanted cheap labor, it's biting them in the ass now, now they need to find a way to solve the problem and problem is when I was in turkish part of berlin people didnt know to speak german.... If in berlin there is a large portion of people who dont speak german, you have a problem
That's a problem indeed but has nothing to do with the cultural heritage. Teaching these people the language of the country where they live is not the same as forbidding them to have their own culture.
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the same way walkin around the city in a mask isn't, that was kind of my point from the beginning
Well, then obviously what "mask" is has to be more strictly defined. But I doubt that the problem is that the burqa covers the entire body of the woman or most of it or that it has anything to do with the "mask" part.
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As I said, prove that the burqa is a religious thing first. The Quoran doesn't say anything about it.
I never said that it is religious, I'm talking about culture which is distinguishably broader term. The burqa wasn't even invented by Muslims.
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smithey
Promising
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 09:27 PM |
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Bosnian Muslims didn't "come" from anywhere, it was the local population that converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation.
Maybe you dont really understand the concept of "Came to be muslims", during 500 yrs bosnia was under ottoman occupation, during that time it was convert to islam or suffer from various laws and other cool stuff including rape and murder, thats how bosnian came to be muslims
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Bosnia is not a Muslim country. According to the 2000 estimate, there are as many Christians as Muslims.
Bosnia has two parts one called republic serbia where majority of christains are, Bosnia is a muslim country, there are aprox 200 mosques in the capital city alone, as opposed to 5 more or less churhces, the gov is mainly muslim, the news have muslim propaganda, the only countries bosnians can visit without a visa are muslim countries
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The immigration from Albania was only part of the problem. The high birth rate was more of an issue. In addition, the Albanians lived in Kosovo for hundreds of years and were majority in Kosovo way before WW2. So the problem is nothing like the one in France. Finally, the wars in former Yugoslavia were not religious.
in france birth rate is 3 muslim babies to one french one, thats the main problem that follows immigration and the main problem taht can cause the future conflict and a country within country.
Finally the wars in former yugoslavia were indeed religious ones as it wasn't serbians against bosnians but serbians against muslims.
You forgot to say where are you from and which minorities you're talking about, considering you claimed first hand religious conflicts ?
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Jabanoss
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Property of Nightterror™
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posted April 14, 2011 09:29 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 21:29, 14 Apr 2011.
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A question for Mvass.
I just wonder, do you think there should be a limit on how people should be allowed to be dressed? Should they be allowed to be naked in public as well for example?
(just wondering, not taking a side in this issue...)
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Zenofex
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posted April 14, 2011 09:34 PM |
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Finally the wars in former yugoslavia were indeed religious ones as it wasn't serbians against bosnians but serbians against muslims.
No. It was Serbs against Bosnian Muslims against Croatian Christians. There were points during the war when all of them were fighting each other. And there were points when The Muslims united with the Catholic Croatians against the Serbs. Either way, the religion wasn't really in the centre of the events.
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Vlaad
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posted April 14, 2011 09:42 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:48, 14 Apr 2011.
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Maybe you dont really understand the concept of "Came to be muslims", during 500 yrs bosnia was under ottoman occupation, during that time it was convert to islam or suffer from various laws and other cool stuff including rape and murder, thats how bosnian came to be muslims
I didn't claim otherwise. Still, it was conversion not immigration. The topic is immigration.
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Bosnia has two parts one called republic serbia where majority of christains are, Bosnia is a muslim country
You mean Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's not a country. Bosnia as a whole is not Muslim.Quote:
Finally the wars in former yugoslavia were indeed religious ones as it wasn't serbians against bosnians but serbians against muslims.
It was also Serbs vs Croats and both are Christian. There were even conflicts between Bosnian Muslims. But that's beside the point. Like Zenofex wrote, religion was not the issue. The differences didn't help though.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted April 14, 2011 09:47 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 21:59, 14 Apr 2011.
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@ Elodin
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Some atheists might decide to wear KKK hoods, but not Chrisitans. The KKK is about hate and intimidation. All true followers of Jesus follow his teaching to love, do good to, and pray even for their enemies.
False, KKK was a protestant christian group not atheistic one, spanish inquisition and christian wars against islam were not really that much about spreading love and praying for enemies...
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Oh, some Christians and Jewish women also wear veils and different sorts of head coverings.
head covering one thing, mask over face other, christains and jews shouldnt be allowed to walk around with masks on as well, this is not muslim only law
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You are wrong. Your interpretation of the Qu'ran it that it is not required. The interpretation of the women who wear the burqa is that it is required. They should have the freedom to practice their own religion rather than being required to practice your religion. If your wife believes it pleases God for her to wear a burqa she should be allowed to. If she does not want to wear a burqq she should not be forced to.
Maybe you have misreaad the Qu'ran, as burqas only purpose is - to stop guys from raping women (loosing themselves to needs of flesh), it's not a religious requirement at all, and considering religious is such a strong thing I was silly enough to believe a person who has faith in god will be strong enough to resist raping women... I know its so hard to resist raping someone (oops sarcasm again)
@Zenofex
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Their function is totally different, I don't know on what ground are you comparing them.
On the basic function it has, to reveal someones face
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Heh, great. So please explain - how come the Muslim part of the Bosnian population makes the country Muslim while at the same time they struggle to keep the Serbs and the Croatians within the same state in order to prevent its future economical collapse? Why are they against the separation of Republika Srpska which has predominantly non-Muslim population? If you are from there, you should have some knowledge regarding the situation after the war.
Im from there, yet I dont live there, and yes Republika Srpska is trying to seperate itself, matter of fact they have different ID's, different TV, even different money... Why the Muslim part doenst want to loose half of the country with its resources ? sorry was that a serious question ? maybe you should try and reconsider that one again, Why wouldn;t a country want to loose large parts of its territory ? Puzzle indeed
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Bulgaria. One of these minorities are the Turks which are about 10% of the total population. The division isn't strictly religious but there are attempts in the recent years to be represented as such.
And you dont think a better solution would be if turks became bulgarian, started mixing marriages, would do things for bulgaria instead of for further seperation of bulgaria ?
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That's a problem indeed but has nothing to do with the cultural heritage. Teaching these people the language of the country where they live is not the same as forbidding them to have their own culture.
The point is they don't want to learn the language, they dont want to be a part of german society
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Well, then obviously what "mask" is has to be more strictly defined. But I doubt that the problem is that the burqa covers the entire body of the woman or most of it or that it has anything to do with the "mask" part.
to not cover someones face - defined easy...
Edit : No zeno, religion was a big part, as in the center of warfare churches and mosques were burnt down and opposites built on the ashes, serbians butchered muslims and muslims buthcered serbains, serbians never once butchered bosnian serbs and there were plenty of villages of those, croatians also had a small part and the only reason they never fought muslims is because muslims were never a treat to them. Once again if it were a national conflict serbs would butcher bosnian serbs however they never did so, and considering the war never spread into serbia whoever bosnian muslims butchered were actual bosnian serbs, meaning had the same nationality... bosnians
Edit 2: @ vlaad nope, havent talked of the federation and yes buddy, bosnia is a muslim country, feel free to visit it if you dont believe me
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mvassilev
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posted April 14, 2011 09:48 PM |
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I just wonder, do you think there should be a limit on how people should be allowed to be dressed? Should they be allowed to be naked in public as well for example?
I don't know what the limit should be, but public nudity should not be allowed on public property.
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