|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted September 15, 2010 01:07 PM |
|
|
This has NOTHING to do with the new law. It ONLY prohibits the covering of the face. That's all, so much smoke for nothing. It is a mutual respect thing, show who you are to those who show you who they are.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
|
posted September 15, 2010 01:28 PM |
|
|
Quote: In my opinion, France has taken another step away from liberty
No true liberty exists.
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
posted September 15, 2010 02:12 PM |
|
|
Pure political interest. The Frenchies are starting to get seriously spooked by the sh*tload of Muslims over there (and Muslims, no matter how many of them are perfectly great and normal, are - in numbers - always a bomb waiting to go off), so, since they can't get rid of them without concentration camps, they're desperately trying to assimilate them as much as - and however - possible.
On one hand, that's a bold move since they know they'll have to face the sh*tstorm about how fascist that is, and on the other, there's a reason why people will imply that move is fascist.
It's not about direct public security. I seriously can't tell how a burqa could harm anyone except if someone like smuggled drugs under it.
It's definitely not about decency in public places either. If it was about public decency they'd have banned gay parades a long time ago.
No, this is - like those mosques in Switzerland - simply about panic, induced by horrifying realization that they let millions of extraordinarily alien people, immune to any sort of assimilation, and in a lot of cases rather militant - I remember those protests in France some time ago, with those libraries burned and stuff - within their borders. Something they perceive, perhaps quite rationally, as a serious threat to their nation itself.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 03:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
But as I said - he would have to prove first, that wearing the burqa is in fact a RELIGIOUS demad and not an issue of female oppression based on a BIASSED interpretation of a religious writing that can be interpreted differently as well: Does ALLAH want women to go veiled or is this a male interpretation of the words of His Prophet?
Lol! Biased according to who? You? You have heard from Allah and you are his prophet? Prophet JJ has now come to tell us all what Allah requires and how to interpret the Qu'ran! Should your interpretation of the Qu'ran be forced on the woman who wants to wear a burqa? Should the French Parliament's interpretation of the Qu'ran be forced on the woman?
Who gets to decide the interpretation of a religious text? The government or the individual?
Bla bla bla. As usual you fail to see the point. If it's OPEN to interpretation, it means, that the meaning is not clear and contested. If it is contested, the question is what makes people interpret a writing in a certain way. Did Allah explicitely say via His Prophet, that women have to be veiled in public, while men do not have to be veiled?
If NOT, and as far as I know, he didn't, it's not Allah's law and therefore no religious demand. Instead it's the law of those who interpret it that way - the law of HUMANS.
|
|
Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
|
posted September 15, 2010 03:28 PM |
|
|
I for one wouldn't dare leave my apartment in a city with drivers wearing burqas.
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted September 15, 2010 04:15 PM |
|
|
All this started from minor things but, when added one to another, they looked as a real threat to modern society.
At first it was a small incident with a burka driver who crashed somewhere. They asked her to remove burka and identify, she refused, hence got arrested.
Then her husband came at rescue, followed by a horde of lawyers, but his identification papers were out of date. The police decided to investigate his case, and it found out that the guy had 6 wifes and cheated the social aid, by perceiving 6 times what he was allowed to. He had no job, but because 6 wifes and 18 kids he got about 18 000 euros every month for nothing.
This event got mediated a lot, people realized that their taxes are going to snowload, thus the general opinion asked for a fix, in a way or another. Because the guy was only one case among hundred thousand others.
That was the trigger of the law. It is reduced to only burka wearing for now, but it is a clear signal to those trying to cheat the society, when covered under "religious" reasons. Religion here is only a provocation, one more sign of a massive invasion.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
posted September 15, 2010 04:39 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 16:41, 15 Sep 2010.
|
Quote:
Bla bla bla. As usual you fail to see the point. If it's OPEN to interpretation, it means, that the meaning is not clear and contested. If it is contested, the question is what makes people interpret a writing in a certain way. Did Allah explicitely say via His Prophet, that women have to be veiled in public, while men do not have to be veiled?
If NOT, and as far as I know, he didn't, it's not Allah's law and therefore no religious demand. Instead it's the law of those who interpret it that way - the law of HUMANS.
Generally people interpret things differently because: 1) They are ignorant of the meaning of a word or sentence in the sentence/passage in question; 2) They are ignorant of the context of the sentence/passage; 3) They fail to understand how the passage interrelates with other passages; 4) they don't want to understand the passage; or 5) other reasons. Both secular and religious writings can be misinterpreted.
If two people interepet something differently that does not mean that one interpretaation is not correct. Just because one person interprets something wrongly does not mean there is no obligation to keep. If a woman understands the Qu'ran to say that she must wear a burqu, who are you to forbid her from wearing a burqa? Who is the French Parliament that it puts itself in the place of her god to tell the woman what relious practices she can't observe as long as she is not harming someone?
What is important is not who is right about whether or not Allah requires a woman to wear a burqa, from a legal standpoint. What is important is can a person follow their religious convictions or not, as long as those convictions don't hurt others.
Also, you did not answer my question. "Who gets to decide the interpretation of a religious text? The government or the individual?"
Is the French government now the official source of religious dogma in France? Should they rule on the official method of communion and the method of baptism that Christians must observe? There are differences in Buddhism. Should the Parliament declare which tenents are correct and which ones must not be observed?
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted September 15, 2010 04:59 PM |
|
|
Elodin, stop playing Don Quichote. The real facts are about covering face in public places, and not about the government deciding how religion must be interpreted. Everyone is free to practice any religion he desires, as long as the others are not feeling it is a provocation. Practicing religion in public places is a provocation, not an act of faith. The faith teaches us to respect others as well. And here the majority does not want to see religion outside the private context. As it should be.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 05:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What is important is not who is right about whether or not Allah requires a woman to wear a burqa, from a legal standpoint. What is important is can a person follow their religious convictions or not, as long as those convictions don't hurt others.
Also, you did not answer my question. "Who gets to decide the interpretation of a religious text? The government or the individual?"
The question is, whether in this case it's indeed the religious convictions of the individual or whether it's an expression of FORCED INEGALITY.
A community has EVERY right to forbid explicitely and by law everything undermining the worldly rights of the individual.
OBVIOUSLY, a community that propagates equal rights between men and women, has the right to take measures against the effects of any ideology, that teaches otherwise, religious or not, and whether you like that or not. Religion cannot be tolerated as an excuse to undermine the individual rights, general laws and so on.
Again, OBVIOUSLY, there wouldn't be such a law in France, if indeed the wearing of the burqua was an individual decision of each woman, which would be respected by family and other muslims as her own (which is the point where it becomes important that it IS open to interpretation, whether a woman has to veil her face or not) and had no repercussions.
For most, however, it is not a voluntary decision - eating with a burqua is, for example, rather cumbersome. However, since a restaurant is a public place, a fundamental muslimic woman has to wear it in a restaurant and a lot of them would rather eat without them, if given the choice.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
posted September 15, 2010 06:52 PM |
|
|
Quote: Also, you did not answer my question. "Who gets to decide the interpretation of a religious text? The government or the individual?"
The government of course. They make the laws, because laws have to be equal to ANY kind fo people, no matter what kind of religion they follow. In opposit to some religious tendencies
If everybody could say and act how HIS religion tells him, we would have an interesting world sooner or later.
My religion tells me to slap everybody's face if he is overweight, because gluttony is one of the 7 deadly sins.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 07:06 PM |
|
|
Why ban these things? Because they're oppressive to women? But oppressing women is already illegal. We don't need these kinds of laws to address that.
JJ:
Regarding the discrimination issue - it's not religious discrimination not to hire people who wear burqas, because you're not refusing to hire them because of their religion. You're merely trying to get the best people for the job, and if wearing a burqa inhibits that, then it's not discriminating against religion. After all, you wouldn't hire someone who wears a burqa for non-religious reasons (for fun?) either.
And wearing the burqa is a voluntary thing because being a Muslim is voluntary.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
posted September 15, 2010 07:35 PM |
|
|
Good points, Mvass.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 08:19 PM |
|
|
Not really. This is true only when the job explicitely needs people NOT to wear anything veiling - if it would be impossible to do the job with a burqua.
However, lots of jobs CAN be done wearing a burqua - say receptionist.
Obviously, that job can be done wearing a burqua - however, every non-muslim would say that a receptionist with an unveiled face would make a better impression. However, that's not a proper reason to decline a job application, if the person is otherwise splendidly qualified - you could say the same about a turban.
Which means, there is one hell of a grey area where it's clear that you can claim discrimination - you are discriminated because of your religious customs, not because of your qualification.
Besides, that was only a side avenue.
The main point is, that it's the religious doctrine which is at fault. People interpret writings and sell them as the only truth, when in fact they shouldn't, but leave these things to the individual.
The prophet only says that people should clad themselves in a decent way and cover their private parts. Religion should leave the actual, practical interpretation to the individual, but instead they dictate people their interpretations as the only truth. That's the problem.
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
posted September 15, 2010 08:31 PM |
|
|
Just for clarification, are we talking public or private employment?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
posted September 15, 2010 08:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The main point is, that it's the religious doctrine which is at fault. People interpret writings and sell them as the only truth, when in fact they shouldn't, but leave these things to the individual.
The prophet only says that people should clad themselves in a decent way and cover their private parts. Religion should leave the actual, practical interpretation to the individual, but instead they dictate people their interpretations as the only truth. That's the problem.
The problem is the French government does not respect the right of women to freely worship their god in the manner that they see fit. France has proven to have no respect for women's rights, no respect for freedom of religion.
A woman should be allowed to wear a burqa if she so chooses. It is not the right of the French government to tell people that they can't freely worship their god.
France is now an opprressor of women.
The law making burqas illegal in public was driven by xenophobia. In their desire to maintain a "pure" French culture they were willing to oppress women and cast aside freedom of religion.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/aug/26/france-ban-islamic-veil
Quote: If there were any doubt about the motivation for the ban on Islamic face coverings passed by the French national assembly in July, the Sarkozy government's actions in August have laid them to rest.
The issue isn't women's emancipation, for all the pious rhetoric we've heard about equality being a "primordial value" of the French nation. It isn't the danger that terrorists and robbers will hide behind burqas in order to blow up buildings or rob banks – the exemptions in the law for motorcycle helmets, fencing and ski masks, and carnival costumes quickly dispel that argument. And it isn't about enforcing openness and transparency as an aspect of French culture.
Outlawing what the French call "le voile intégral" is part of a campaign to purify and protect national identity, purging so-called foreign elements – although many of these "foreigners" are actually French citizens – from membership in the nation. It is part of a cynical bid by Sarkozy and his party to capture the anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim animus that has brought electoral gains to the rightwing National Front party and to disarm the Socialist opposition, which has so far offered little resistance to the xenophobic campaign.
The national assembly's action came on July 13, as the country prepared to celebrate the birth of republican democracy in the revolution of 1789. Banning the burqa on the eve of the Fête Nationale provided a clear affirmation of true Frenchness.
It followed a year in which President Sarkozy included a minister of immigration and national identity in his cabinet. The title of the new post conveyed the message that if national identity were in trouble immigrants were the source. The president and his minister called for a countrywide conversation on the meanings of national identity. There were to be contests and town-hall meetings to articulate what it meant to be truly French. When that effort fizzled, they came up with more draconian measures. Sarkozy proposed, this month, to take away the citizenship of foreign-born French citizens if they were convicted of crimes such as threatening the life of a police officer. Children born in France to foreign parents (once presumed to automatically qualify for citizenship) would be denied citizenship if there were any evidence of juvenile delinquency.
This month, too, began the expulsion of the Roma, said to be illegally camped throughout the country and responsible for all manner of crimes. Despite an outcry from those who denounced the expulsions as echoes of Vichy (the government that collaborated with the Nazis in the 1940s), these activities have made "security" a prime focus for politicians and public opinion pollsters. Whether it will deliver another term to Sarkozy in 2012 remains to be seen.
The immediate effect is to conjure a fantasy spectre in which foreigners endanger France and are made to take the blame for all its economic, social and political problems. Instead of real solutions to economic stagnation, high unemployment, discrimination against minorities, violence in the banlieue, and a deteriorating educational system, to name a few, the country is offered a nightmare vision of veiled women and their male handlers, an enemy within the borders who must be uncovered and, in this way, disarmed.
That only a few thousand women wear face coverings in a country that has 4-6 million people from Muslim countries in its population raises the question of why this issue has become the focus of nationalist campaigns, not only in France, but in other western European countries as well. What is it about covered women that so draws the ire and fear of so many, some western feminists included? How have politicians, many of whom have worked hard to keep women out of political office, been able to use feminist themes of emancipation and equality in the politics of the "clash of civilisations"? Why has it been so easy to identify the veil as an instrument only of oppression, even when ethnographers and historians tell us it has multiple meanings, and when some women who wear it insist that they have chosen it because it positively signifies their femininity and their devotion to God?
One answer – and there are many more to be explored – is that the focus on Muslim women's rights covers over some of the dangerous elements of the "security state". The claim to be protecting women justifies state intervention in religious, family, and public life that would otherwise be unacceptable.
The same politicians who have long resisted laws on sexual harassment and the punishment of domestic violence become advocates for women when these are identified as Muslim offences. This puts aside the continuing issue of gender inequality as a national problem. And politicians demonstrate their prowess to their national constituencies by acting to protect these supposedly vulnerable women from the men who are said to violate their rights: the proposed law levies a small fine of €150 on a woman wearing a burqa in public, while the men presumed to have forced her compliance get a year in prison and a fine of €30,000.
The state's role is figured as the protection of its citizens (the analogy is to gallant men protecting the weaker sex), even if that requires the suspension of liberties in the name of security – now the country's highest priority.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
posted September 15, 2010 09:13 PM |
|
|
Quote: Obviously, that job can be done wearing a burqua - however, every non-muslim would say that a receptionist with an unveiled face would make a better impression. However, that's not a proper reason to decline a job application, if the person is otherwise splendidly qualified - you could say the same about a turban.
If you have an attribute that compromises a company's ability to attract customers (hurts business) - or, say, a competing applicant lacks this attribute - then you de facto are less qualified for the job. Put another way, if you are a bank teller, part of your job is customer relations, and if customers cannot relate to you, that makes you as much of a liability to the company as if you couldn't add. A bank teller with no arithmetic skills is probably just as bad of a hire (from a hiring manager's perspective) as a bank teller who is likely to scare away the clientele - for whatever reason. I mean, let's forget the baggage surrounding religious attire and get to the meat of the issue: is a pretty person more qualified than an ugly person for some jobs? I never understood why people cry "discrimination" when a TV company hires only young, hot women for news anchor positions, yet nobody seems to think it's wrong that the NBA only hires tall, athletic and muscular males as basketball players. Some people apparently think it's wrong for companies to use your religious attire as a means to weed out potential job applicants, but I don't really see it as any different than using any other attribute of a person. If you're determined to walk around society with a piece of black fabric covering your face, that's your choice. But people need to realize that choices have consequences, and if your choice is going to wig out the customers, then companies have every right to hire someone else who is willing to come to work with more than their eyes showing.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 09:35 PM |
|
Edited by Binabik at 21:40, 15 Sep 2010.
|
Quote: And wearing the burqa is a voluntary thing because being a Muslim is voluntary.
You could use that argument to exclude ALL religious practices. Yes, being religious is voluntary, but it's also a right. Freedom of speech is also voluntary. Will you argue that speech can be restricted because it's voluntary?
The way I see it is that freedom of religion comes in layers. At the very core freedom of religion says that a government can not force you to be a certain religion. They can not say that you must be catholic, or must be Anglican, or must be religious at all.
It's only a slight step away from that innermost core to say a person can choose their own religion.
The above two aspects are about religious beliefs. That is the core of religion, the beliefs that you hold. Do you believe there is a god? What is the nature of that god? Do you believe in reincarnation? Do you believe in prophets? These are all parts of a person's core religious beliefs.
The above are internal beliefs. They are things that you believe with your mind or soul. These are the things that are at the very core of freedom of religion.
When it comes to religious practices, you are getting away from the internal beliefs. It then becomes external. As soon as it becomes external it can potentially begin to affect other people. From the legal point of view it has been shown over and over that when religion becomes externalized and affects other people then there can be limitations placed on it.
Specifically those limitations say that you must obey the law even if it conflicts with your religion. However there are exceptions to that, where a law applies differently due to a person's religious beliefs. What this really boils down to is a question of the degree of religious freedom vs the degree of need for the law.
In the case of the burka, a prohibition on the burka does not affect the core religious belief. It only affects a specific externalized practice of that religion. This does not restrict a person's belief. It does not affect their belief in a god. It does not affect their belief in a prophet. It does not affect their belief in prayer, or belief in reincarnation. It does not affect their belief in anything. It only affects a specific *practice* that has been deemed by society and a rightful government to be illegal.
Personally I think a person should be able to wear whatever they want. That has nothing to do with religion. I just don't think it's the government's place to dictate what clothes a person wears. However, regardless of religion, I think if there is a good reason to restrict specific clothing in certain situations, then it's ok to restrict it. If a person gets a driver's license that requires a picture of their face, obviously they must show their face. If the police pull you over in a car or otherwise have need to identify you, then you must show your face.
In many places the tint on car windows is restricted for much the same reason. If the police pull you over they want to see who's in the car.
There are lots of examples when courts have ruled that specific practices can be restricted when they conflict with reasonable needs within a society. The two have to be weighed against each other. Again, restriction of a practice does not affect the core belief system of a religion.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 09:39 PM |
|
|
Quote: You could use that argument to exclude ALL religious practices.
Okay. It's the employer's choice.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
posted September 15, 2010 09:44 PM |
|
|
I haven't been following the employer argument, and don't even know how it started. However I think an employer can hire (or not hire) people for any reason they want. Although I make an exception with government jobs. And I MIGHT make an exception with publicly owned companies.
____________
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
posted September 15, 2010 10:01 PM |
|
|
Quote: I haven't been following the employer argument, and don't even know how it started. However I think an employer can hire (or not hire) people for any reason they want. Although I make an exception with government jobs. And I MIGHT make an exception with publicly owned companies.
AFAIK no they can't for public jobs. They can be charged if they don't hire somebody for any non-merit based reason (gender, race, blah blah blah). Of course, such laws are easy to avoid since there's almost always a reason you can come up with not to hire somebody and it's very doubtful the applicant will go to court over it.
You can fire somebody for whatever reason and you don't have to explain yourself, however they can collect unemployment compensation unless you can show that you fired them for a reason of severe neglect or incompetence on their part.
The former is a federal regulation so it applies anywhere in the US; the other is a law in Mass but I think it's fairly common in most states.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
|
|