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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 17, 2010 05:07 PM |
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Quote:
You seem to be frustrated by the facts. But throwing personal insults my way will not change the facts.
That wasn't a personal insult but a personal belief. I strongly and sincerely believe you are the most embarrassing thing to happen to Christianity since the Catholic Church.
I see you call for others to respect others' beliefs, but you are hypocritically intolerant of mine.
In fact you are heavily provoking my religion and attitudes and calling them insults. You also repeatedly blaspheme and demean my deity, the State-God. I must ask you to stop or I will call for a moderator to take action. I never said anything about your God, or your beliefs. You, therefore, have no right to attack the State-God, may he tax us for eternity. Act within your boundaries.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted September 17, 2010 10:07 PM |
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Of course some atheists call belief in anything by the material superstition but that is only because they are ignorant of spiritual things.
So I can lock you in a room and wait for you to run out of air? Nice.
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Doctors are only supposed to offer medical ADVICE. They can't dictate that a procedure be done. And doctors make mistakes and sometimes think procedures are necessary when they are not.
Well, there is a difference of "advice" in advanced and subjective situations, and somebody who just got it after loosing so much blood they are on the verge of death due some random situation.
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I had an uncle who had cancer. The doctors told him unless he had an operation he would be dead within a year. If he had the lung removed he might survive a few years. My uncle refused the operation and lived another 20 years. If some liberal loon had forced the operation on my uncle he would have been murdering him. There are cases of doctors advising a woman to have an abortion because they said the baby would be born dead in which the mother did not heed the advice of the doctor and the baby was born healthy.
Remember: You are in a country with crappy moral standards regarding health care.
The hospitals and doctors wants MONEY, they get money via surgery and similar. Insurance companies profits from being dieing before getting expensive.
Do I need more argument?
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Unfortunately it seems many liberal politicians and judges are control freaks with delusions of grandeur..
I might ask: Do you have a mirror?
You do not even need a view to be batsnow insane, you however lack anything beyond the fact you belive something.
You are not "sane", simply because you are incapable of thinking about what you are saying and why, in contrast to someone like Binabik.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 17, 2010 11:58 PM |
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@Elo:
Quote:
Children are not inanimate extensions of the State. Children who are mature enough to make their own medical decisions should do so. Otherwise a family member (the parents if available) should be the ones making the decision, not some politician. It is a family matter and the family may see the situation as involving more than just a medical decision.
Although the State still has constitutional authority to stop a murder from occurring, regardless if the family has noble intentions or not, I would like to note that it extends beyond that as well. Doctors take a pledge to preserve to life, and in as much as a family may be bound by their conscious to let their child die, most doctors are likewise bound by their conscious to save the child. I know personally that if I had the means and the knowledge to save a child with a blood transfusion, I would do so, and if I had to fight off and possibly kill their parents in order to do that, then I would do so, and I would sleep soundly at night.
There is no flawless method of determining whether a child - or anybody - is emotionally and mentally capable of making a serious decision concerning their life. There are some 14 year olds that are more mature than 40 year olds, but generally speaking, children have an inadequate amount of judgment over such things, which is why adults make decisions for them in various affairs beyond just medical decisions.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 18, 2010 12:12 AM |
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Elodin I don't know why you have "In the back of the bus" in your custom status. You're Mr. Popular 
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 18, 2010 01:22 AM |
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Quote:
Doctors take a pledge to preserve to life
No they don't. They take a pledge to "above all else, do no harm". Sometimes keeping someone alive is doing more harm.
Just wanted to correct that common misconception about the Hippocratic Oath.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted September 18, 2010 03:06 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Doctors take a pledge to preserve to life
No they don't. They take a pledge to "above all else, do no harm". Sometimes keeping someone alive is doing more harm.
Just wanted to correct that common misconception about the Hippocratic Oath.
"Primum non nocere" is not part of the hippocratic oath...
But yeah, here's the relevant parts of the oath:
"...
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug...
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
..."
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted September 20, 2010 03:30 PM |
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By the way, will the police raid the church and bust the minister if there's an illegal gay wedding going on?
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 20, 2010 05:39 PM |
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The parents have the duty, responsibility, and right to raise their children. Such rights existed before the existence of the State...
Weak argument Elodin. There have been a lot of rights existed before there wasa state, and we can be glad they do not exist anymore. Example? The right of the stronger. The decision made by the stronger one was always the right one, no matter what. You also think's ok nowadays?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2010 06:27 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:29, 20 Sep 2010.
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yeah, read that, in europe they made people fight to determine the issue of a trial. or they injured them and if they took too long to recover they were considered guilty
and darwin wasn't born yet.
also read that until recently, people made children mainly so they had more arms to do the work, or so that their properties stayed in the family for example (that one seems to still be very true today). children weren't considered as important and cared for as they are today. I think that less than a century ago, very young children still worked in factories or mines.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 20, 2010 07:48 PM |
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Quote:
I think that less than a century ago, very young children still worked in factories or mines.
They still do. Slavery still exists also. Both are still very common.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2010 10:48 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 22:48, 20 Sep 2010.
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oh well, was thinking of my country.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 21, 2010 02:14 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The parents have the duty, responsibility, and right to raise their children. Such rights existed before the existence of the State...
Weak argument Elodin. ?
It is a whole lot stronger argument than saying the State-god has the right to dictate a child's medical care against the will of the child and the parents. If a loony-tunes lib wants some loony-tunes politician to make personal decisions for him and him family, that is all well and good. However, those of us who are not loony-tunes libs are quite capable of making our own decisions. I'd suggest that if someone doesn't feel capable of making decisions on behalf of his children that he should not have any more children and put up any children he has for adoption so that they can have competent parents.
There is no reason to think that some loony politician should have the right to determine medical care and religious beliefs for the children of everyone else.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2010 10:57 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 10:57, 21 Sep 2010.
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I guess most people are as capable to take decisions than those who decide to do what politicians tell them. if they don't follow politicians, they will just follow what the neighbour says, or someone else.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 21, 2010 11:10 AM |
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I have an interesting question for Elodin. Do you believe it is societies obligation to look after and protect children?
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 21, 2010 11:26 AM |
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Quote:
if they don't follow politicians, they will just follow what the neighbour says, or someone else.
Some people are actually capable of thinking for themselves. Every time people let the government do their thinking for them they becomes less capable of thinking for themselves. It's neglecting their own responsibility and giving it to the state. Every time they do that they become weaker and more dependent. Every time they do that they give away a portion of their independence and freedom. A dependent society can never be a free society.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 21, 2010 12:14 PM |
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Quote:
It is a whole lot stronger argument than saying the State-god has the right to dictate a child's medical care against the will of the child and the parents.
There you go demeaning the State-god again. He controls all our lives, and rightly so; you may not believe in him, but that will simply invoke his wrath and possibly get you into a lot of legal trouble.
For it has been typed,
And the State-god sayeth unto them:
"I am he who giveth thee roads
And like hospitals and public transportation and stuff
And who maintaineth the parks and plazas
For thee to walk thine dogs and children and whatnot;
And while we're at children
I feel the need to mentioneth this, though I sincerely hope none of thee is dumb enough to do it
(For there are limits to the usefulness of thy stupidity)
Do not
Please, do not
Stab, maim, rape, flay, bake or disallow medical treatment for your children
No, not even for religious reasons
(I know I'm not the only god around but it gets seriously annoying when the others don't even TRY to make sense sometimes)
And there shalt be trolls in sheep's clothing
And they shalt say unto thee that thine god is a cruel one
For not allowing you to kill your kids when you really want to
And they are indeed using every excuse to whine and provoke and generally act like imbeciles
So ignoreth them
And send thine children to the bloody hospital when they need it
Or I'll send them there
That's why I freaking built them
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 21, 2010 12:19 PM |
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Ok, think this is getting a bit out of hand. Lets get back on track, and reign it back a bit.
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Message received.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2010 12:35 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
if they don't follow politicians, they will just follow what the neighbour says, or someone else.
Some people are actually capable of thinking for themselves. Every time people let the government do their thinking for them they becomes less capable of thinking for themselves. It's neglecting their own responsibility and giving it to the state. Every time they do that they become weaker and more dependent. Every time they do that they give away a portion of their independence and freedom. A dependent society can never be a free society.
I said most people, not all of them. otherwise, I agree with you, that's also what I think.
I also wonder if laws are made because people don't want to think, or because the state don't want people to think. (or both)
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted September 21, 2010 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
There is no reason to think that some loony politician should have the right to determine medical care and religious beliefs for the children of everyone else.
This isn't about that. It's about blood transfusions.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 21, 2010 06:54 PM |
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Quote:
How much control do you think the government should have over what people religious articles of clothing or jewelry a person may wear or other practices that are not harmful to others?
I can understand a person being required to remove a covering of the face in a security sensitive area or in order for a law enforcement official to identify them. But not a general ban of such religous attire.
{The French it would seem have much to learn from America's founding fathers.}
To think how important they once were to us. Since nearly any Frenchman that would remember the two WWs are gone,<IMO> that country has contined on a slide when it comes to Liberty. But all of Europe is becoming more Anti-God (in any expression). Nutz-worldwide are the reason and they come from all places {god-stuff and man's-stuff}
Our Liberties are under fire here. Since the bombings everywhere global-panic w/o sense has dominated. I used to fly a bit (sitting on a plane) Watching the AP security frisk and strip down a 80+ year old granny just to prove they're not profiling? If a suspect matches me to a tee? I would expect and hope I would be looked over. Crazy world we have, TG for HoMM and I can escape a while. As Tolkien said; 'Consolation and Recovery'
<imp>Because of the Rads and 'our leveling system' things will get worse here in the good ol' U.S.A. Even our PCs are not really ours anymore.<L> Ah, the win-98 days when I had full-control. What do I have now? Win-back crashing a tense-battle-raise-dead-spell, even after I had shut the auto-crap off. Now there!,...is a serious problem<vbg>
Make a great day, Markkur
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