|
| Thread: Heroes 6 Fortress? - Love it, hate it or discuss it! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
|
posted January 23, 2011 01:57 PM |
|
|
Many monsters are not similar with the original ones but they do have a good story behind them to fit in, and anyway, they don't stray too far off, more or less.
Fire Toads: Story is ok, but why toads? I mean, really, anything else would be better!
Fenrir: You're not very familiar with Norse mythology, it seems. Let me give you an example: Putting Fenrir as a core, is like putting a Dragon as a core. You just might wanna drop the name 'Fenrir' but then it's even worse, cause you're gonna have a common wolf.
Runic Armor: Still unimaginative, and too similar to Golems as noted. Besides the Defender is the perfect melee walker defensive unit. No need for another.
Valkyrie: If you don't like this unit because it's tied up to North climates then why do you like Fenrir? Valkyrie and Fenrir come from the same environment.
Thunderbird: That was is not any more fitting than the Roc. Roc upgrading to Thunderbird on the North American style desert located Strongholds, was very fitting. That's where the Thunderbird came from anyway. The Dwarves won't live in Arizona like deserts though, right?
____________
Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted January 23, 2011 02:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Many monsters are not similar with the original ones but they do have a good story behind them to fit in, and anyway, they don't stray too far off, more or less.
Fire Toads: Story is ok, but why toads? I mean, really, anything else would be better!
Fenrir: You're not very familiar with Norse mythology, it seems. Let me give you an example: Putting Fenrir as a core, is like putting a Dragon as a core. You just might wanna drop the name 'Fenrir' but then it's even worse, cause you're gonna have a common wolf.
Runic Armor: Still unimaginative, and too similar to Golems as noted. Besides the Defender is the perfect melee walker defensive unit. No need for another.
Valkyrie: If you don't like this unit because it's tied up to North climates then why do you like Fenrir? Valkyrie and Fenrir come from the same environment.
Thunderbird: That was is not any more fitting than the Roc. Roc upgrading to Thunderbird on the North American style desert located Strongholds, was very fitting. That's where the Thunderbird came from anyway. The Dwarves won't live in Arizona like deserts though, right?
Fire lizards, Salamanders. Naming is a mater of compromision. I could generally call it "Fire spitting animal living near lava rivers".
I would not drop the Idea of wolves. Fenrir may be a little overdone but the Idea of some wolf based unit should IMHO by kept.
In a faction such as Dwarves I would like to see more slow defensive unites. Defense is there core characteristic that should not by pushed behind 2 or 3 defensive unites would by fine. (ex. in Heroes V there were 2 such unites, Defender and Dragon.)
Valkiery: Its due to the fact that if you see a big wolf, people will say "oh mountains, cold" but when you see a valkiary, it screams "Nordic". Wolves live everyvare, but Valkiery is a "local" creature like the Naga or Minotaur.
Roc/Thunderbird. As I said. It is not meant to connect to North america region, but underline the mountanios terrain ant the connection to thunder. And if I'm not mistaking, Arizona is in an mountainios ares
Also, I looked, and failed to find your own perposel for a Dvarwen faction. Could you give me an example how do you imagine our prefect Fortress
Just so you don't have to look, I will rewrite my own
Core
Defender/Stalwart (slow defender)
Fire toad/Salamander (shooter)
Wolf type unit (fast attacker)
Elite
Runic Armor(slow resistant defender)
Rune priest (Rage spellcaster)
Thunderbird (Fast Flayer)
Champion
Mountain giant (slow offensive)
Alternative:
Exchange the Wolf for Bear or Bear rider
Exchange the Salamander for A dwarven shooter
Exchange the Thunderbird for Thane
Exchange the Giant for Fire wyrm
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted January 23, 2011 05:45 PM |
|
|
I kind of agree with both on you on the Bear subject - on one hand, I think the bear should loose the rider, as I think he looks unnatural balancing on the back of the bear, and as noted, bear behaviour during combat doesn't exactly encourage mounting him. Plus, all the special abilities were related to the bear anyway, not the rider.
On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree that plain animals in combats are boring. Make that bears, dogs, birds, or whatever else people have suggested - I find it unlikely to have them fight in combat on their own. Like we discussed in the other thread, I find the idea of a "Spirit Bear" a really good compromise, because one could make this a magical beast (similar to Unicorn, Griffin, etc.), it has a really cool name, and it has a real-world counterpart with a distinctive look.
About the other creatures: I don't see the point of the Runic Armor as a creature. It could be a nice spell or even special ability for Dwarves under Summoning Magic, but as a creature in the line-up, I also think it's too close to the Golem.
The Fenrir ... perhaps I have to bodge to the people saying it's too much against the mythology. It's a cool creature and an obvious choice, but on the other hand, it's hard to imagine such a beastly creature naturally appearing in a 'good' lineup.
The Valkyrie ... this could definitely work. I think this creature could be twisted to fit the world of Ashan nicely, and could be a good way to introduce a female Dwarven unit as well as a flying one - depending on how one envisions this (I would think something similar to the Pegasus from H3).
Giants of various sorts - obviously an easy pick, but not one I'm too excited about. First off, we have a Giant already in Academy (Cloud Giant), so unless one will implement some sort of elemental pattern between the factions (which could work), I think there's an issue of repetition here. Also, in many mythologies, Dwarves and Giants are enemies which makes an issue of credibility depending on how you form the lore.
Magma Toad etc. ... I think the picture of the Magma Toad someone posted was epic.  However, I would rather stick to something similar to the Magma Dragon of H5 which I found an excellent unit in terms of both looks and game mechanics (super tank = perfect champion for this faction). Call it Salamander to fix the 'Dragon' issue if you prefer.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Meherunes
Adventuring Hero
Daedra Summoner
|
|
posted January 23, 2011 06:11 PM |
|
|
I agree, Spirit Bear would be awesome. Though the magma dragon didn't really do it for me. Sure, call it Salamander, but it's the abilities I didn't like; or maybe it was the whole creature...
Valkyrie would work if it had some good abilities, I wouldn't want it to end up as a failiure...
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2011 10:42 PM |
|
|
Under most circumstances I'd agree that normal animals in combat are boring, but I would not apply that to bears, because frankly, those Kodiaks are bloody huge, up to 10' tall and up to more than half-a-ton. Dogs and wolfs aren't that boring either, I mean dogs had and have a solid basis in the army, albeit no longer as attack animals.
Oh, and the issue with Thunderbirds, and indeed any other sort of bird is that they wouldn't work brilliantly underground
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 04:21 PM |
|
|
So, Firbolg -> Fomorian?
Eh, true dwarves originated from maggots that dwelt within the dead giant Ymir's flesh (hence their fondness for digging). Methinks the Fortress Champion should be a gigantic maggot, Dune style.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 05:47 PM |
|
|
I for one, defintly think they should go for a Norse theme instead of the old, boring "dwarves living on snowy mountainsides and underground mines" approach. In H5, Fortress had pretty much the exact same architecture as the Dwarves in LOTR.
I have never really liked snow myself so I would give the dwarves an icelandic terrain (icelandic grass plains, with some imaginary trees added). The adventure map could be beautiful with geysers and FJORDS. Like how you see these huge jungle basins in H6 on the adventure map, there could be big fjords filling parts of the map on their terrain.
The theme of the creatures would be the balance between fire and frost or a combination of them (frostfire).
I would keep 2-3 Dwarves. H5 Fortress was a good town in many ways with an excellent and fun racial skill which should not be removed but the enormous flaws with it was its super-boring line-up.
I would keep the Defender, as they represent the military branch of the Dwarves very well to me.
The Spearwielder would go, as I always thought it felt very out of place. I didnt like the Bear rider either so adiós to you. Normal bears as creatures would be even worse. I am totally against having normal, boring animals as creatures.
Berserkers would appear in a new, more epic shape. They could easily be combined with Einherjar in Norse mythology. I would avoid using super complicated norse-names though.
I thought the Rune priest was a good unit and as the Defender to me represents the military branch of the dwarves, I would use the Rune-Priest to represent the religious branch.
I thought the Thane was really cool but then, they could easily have made a Giant instead. Finally, while the Fire dragon design was certainly original - it was still yet another dragon and would fit perfectly as a boss instead.
Also I have to stay that I LOVE the idea of the fire-toad! Awesome idea! Much better than the old boring salamander concepts.
So this is my basic line-up:
Core
Defender -> Shield Guard
Rune Monk -> Rune Ascendant
Lava Toad -> Ashback Toad
Elite
Ice Troll -> Glacial Troll
Berserker -> Einherjar
Ember Maiden -> Valkyrie
Champion
Giant -> Volcanic Giant
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 07:18 PM |
|
|
Don't we have enough generic maidens as it is?
The names, I mean, not the creatures.
And I don't see that much of a difference between a flame-spouting reptilian and a fire-belching amphibian.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 07:39 PM |
|
|
Meh, I came up with the names in 5 min so nothing serious with that, I just couldn't come up with a better name at the time.
I think a ranged Toad that uses its long tongue for a ranged attack would be cooler than some red lizard that spits fire.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 08:00 PM |
|
Edited by kodial79 at 20:03, 24 Jan 2011.
|
Quote:
Fire lizards, Salamanders. Naming is a mater of compromision. I could generally call it "Fire spitting animal living near lava rivers".
I would not drop the Idea of wolves. Fenrir may be a little overdone but the Idea of some wolf based unit should IMHO by kept.
In a faction such as Dwarves I would like to see more slow defensive unites. Defense is there core characteristic that should not by pushed behind 2 or 3 defensive unites would by fine. (ex. in Heroes V there were 2 such unites, Defender and Dragon.)
Valkiery: Its due to the fact that if you see a big wolf, people will say "oh mountains, cold" but when you see a valkiary, it screams "Nordic". Wolves live everyvare, but Valkiery is a "local" creature like the Naga or Minotaur.
Roc/Thunderbird. As I said. It is not meant to connect to North america region, but underline the mountanios terrain ant the connection to thunder. And if I'm not mistaking, Arizona is in an mountainios ares
Also, I looked, and failed to find your own perposel for a Dvarwen faction. Could you give me an example how do you imagine our prefect Fortress
Just so you don't have to look, I will rewrite my own
Core
Defender/Stalwart (slow defender)
Fire toad/Salamander (shooter)
Wolf type unit (fast attacker)
Elite
Runic Armor(slow resistant defender)
Rune priest (Rage spellcaster)
Thunderbird (Fast Flayer)
Champion
Mountain giant (slow offensive)
Alternative:
Exchange the Wolf for Bear or Bear rider
Exchange the Salamander for A dwarven shooter
Exchange the Thunderbird for Thane
Exchange the Giant for Fire wyrm
Salamanders would work much better than Toads, in this one. If Rakshasa being evil spirits in actual mythology did fit so well with Academy in H5, then given a good story, Salamander would go along nicely in a dwarven faction. Much better than toads. Make them shooters and replace Spearwielders with them.
Well, we're going to disagree about wolves then. Since you're offering as an alternative the Bear Riders, I would so much preffer to have them.
Now, if you do drop the Fenrir name, then I guess you could drop Valkyrie too, for being Nordic. Alright, although my personal opinion is that she could easily be added in the mix.
Probably Arizona has a few mountains too but it's most famous for its deserts, I suppose. They look pretty much like the one in H3 Stronghold's Town Screen background. Anyway, like MattII pointed out, with the Dwarves being big on mining and Kingdoms Under the Mountain and their fabled Stone Halls, and all that, the Thunderbird would get a little claustrophobic... 
Really, you should know better than to ask me what I would wanna have for a Fortress line-up. But since you did:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_fortress_creatures.shtml
How's this?! 
____________
Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2011 08:06 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 20:07, 24 Jan 2011.
|
Quote:
So this is my basic line-up:
Core
Defender -> Shield Guard
Rune Monk -> Rune Ascendant
Lava Toad -> Ashback Toad
Elite
Ice Troll -> Glacial Troll
Berserker -> Einherjar
Ember Maiden -> Valkyrie
Champion
Giant -> Volcanic Giant
Oh right, let's stick a bunch of Norse creatures together and hope no-one notices when we put the equivalents of demons and barbarians in the same lineup as priests and angels.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 05:14 AM |
|
|
|
Actually H5 had two dragons two many, Fire/Magma and Green/Emerald.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 07:28 AM |
|
|
No, it made perfect sense to include Green/Gold/Emerald dragons as a counterweight to the Dungeon's dragons.
I don't think people would've had any problems with the H5 Fortress' top unit if only the dragon name had been avoided.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 08:05 AM |
|
Edited by MattII at 08:07, 25 Jan 2011.
|
Quote:
No, it made perfect sense to include Green/Gold/Emerald dragons as a counterweight to the Dungeon's dragons.
No, the counterweight to Black Dragons has always been Titans.
Quote:
I don't think people would've had any problems with the H5 Fortress' top unit if only the dragon name had been avoided.
A dragon by any other name is still a dragon.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 09:08 AM |
|
|
Quote:
No, the counterweight to Black Dragons has always been Titans.
Only since H2, and not in terms of morality.
Quote:
A dragon by any other name is still a dragon.
All lizards are dragons. Gotcha.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 09:42 AM |
|
Edited by MattII at 09:44, 25 Jan 2011.
|
Quote:
Only since H2, and not in terms of morality.
Um, Green Dragons have been in exactly two games, and if you're looking at it that way, it's the Angels who are the Black Dragons' prime opponents, Sylanna opposed Sylath, and Elrath, Malassa.
Quote:
All lizards are dragons. Gotcha.
No, but any reptile with 4 legs and 2 or more wings is a dragon.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 11:58 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Um, Green Dragons have been in exactly two games, and if you're looking at it that way, it's the Angels who are the Black Dragons' prime opponents, Sylanna opposed Sylath, and Elrath, Malassa.
Wrong agein my frend. Green dragons have been in 3 games (H2. H3 and H4). And the oposiet of angels are the Faceless. Ylath, Shallasa, Sylanna and Arketh are elemental dragons and therfor Equile.
The original conterpart to Titans is the Bone dragone. Because Nwcromancers were ment as the oposite of Wizards
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 12:30 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 12:31, 25 Jan 2011.
|
Quote:
Wrong agein my frend. Green dragons have been in 3 games (H2. H3 and H4).
Meh, the greens of H2 aren't the same as the greens of H3/5.
Quote:
And the oposiet of angels are the Faceless.
The Faceless are pretty much dead, the Black Dragons are the level 7 in Dungeon.
Quote:
Ylath, Shallasa, Sylanna and Arketh are elemental dragons and therfor Equile.
So you're telling me that 'Elemental Chains' never existed?
Quote:
The original conterpart to Titans is the Bone dragone. Because Nwcromancers were ment as the oposite of Wizards
lore-wise maybe, but the Titan/BDragon rivalry showed up almost immediately, continued with the Hate relationship in H3, were on opposing sides in H4 (Order and Chaos respectively), and by the time H5 rolled around, it was embedded.
Quote:
Really you should stop "attacking"/"having teaching attitude toward" members because you think they ruin human-mythology.
Ah, shut your trap, if there's anyone here who needs to tone down their preaching it's you.
Quote:
Humans are just humans and they made up that stuff to begin with, why can't the new humans make things up different?
And some people prefer to respect tradition, and they shouldn't be shouted down for having such opinions.
Quote:
The minotaur for example was a bull version of the centaur, no humanoid bullman, that is wrong, this is just a small example.
I don't think so, not according to the people whose story it is.
Quote:
Really, even a medusa has ties to a dwarf town, stone is their binding element, dwarf runemages animate the statues the medusa's create with their gaze for example, fabricating golem-like creatures from animated statues, you can really make up everything you like, don't let the "true" stories and mythology limit your own fantasy so bad.
So how do the Runemages resist the Medusas' gaze?
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 12:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Meh, the greens of H2 aren't the same as the greens of H3/5.
Why? It is a green dragon. fallowing your logic the Black dragon in H5 would not by the same Black dragon as in H3, because it doesn't have a red dragon as an un-upgraded model
Quote:
The Faceless are pretty much dead, the Black Dragons are the level 7 in Dungeon.
Lore wise add1: Dragons are children of the gods, Faceless are creations. add2: The opposite of Darkleves are Sylvan, opposite of Wizards are necromancers.
Quote:
So you're telling me that 'Elemental Chains' never existed?
As a skill? yes id did? Did it work the way it supposed to? no it didn't Elemental chain was an unfinished feature that Nival didn't manage to create. It was basicly a Pair of elements. Originally it spoused to by a linked fixed chain. Didn't happen. And basing your statement on game skills is irrelevant. I don't think golem are living creatures just because one Skill allowed them to have moral bonuses.
Quote:
lore-wise maybe, but the Titan/BDragon rivalry showed up almost immediately, continued with the Hate relationship in H3, were on opposing sides in H4 (Order and Chaos respectively), and by the time H5 rolled around, it was embedded.
I think the Game lore has more power than game mechanics.
I don't want to argue that the Black dragon and Titan are the Ultimate duo, They are. But please think twice before you write something like "Mages are the opposite of Warlocks and that is that" when it isn't true. The mages are power counterpart of warlocks in most games, but lore vise it is the sorcerer/elf who hates the Warlock and The necromancer who hates the Mage. Just because the Crusader i H2 has the "slay undead" ability, doesn't make the Knights the opoit of the necromancers.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
garnju
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2011 02:13 PM |
|
|
I would like to put my 2 cents on the table.
Sticking to actual/real mytology is mainly becaosue its easier to fill the holes in your fictional line-up/culture etc.
Do not want to spam the topic with another topic(s) discussion but for better understading i will wrote down my feelings/oppinions about previous Heroes games. (i do not played H1, H2)
Hero races in towns (H3-H4): it was quite funny that nearly in every town regardless from its creature line-up humans were there as heroes. I understand the reason "coz humans are so differrent they could fit in nearly every nation/culture etc" but for compare dwarves/elves could only wear one coat ? And what about humans who are sticked with the "non-human" factions and not heroes ? Never ever mentioned maybe in some campaign scenarios as a pop-up that "Xy encounters a group of villagers ....". You could figured out that i better like the H5 race based town style.
Creature line-ups/town (H3-H5):
Castle/Haven : 5 human, 2 non-humans. Its interesting that the main popularity of the forum members often get mad when one of the other towns get +1/-1 humanonoid creature but rarely argue about that this is the town line up what is the most .... unchanged. And when someone puts some change in it (warhound, bandit/freelancer type soldier, other beast (IMO good ideas) than griffin the people will start to argue with him/her pointing that : "haven is the refleciton of medieval europe and you can't add these creature ... just 'coz its not fitting enoguh. And they are the ones who always cry about "its not enough radical/new"
Conflux : its not a favourite faction, no real reason putting the creatures together never realy cared about its return.
Fortress (h3) : bunch of lizard like creatures with a mammal-humanoid (H5 term ->beastman) again some humans as heroes without real description (tammers of the beast yeah)
Inferno (H3) : demons called Kreegans --> a space race witch battled for centuries with the Ancients (high-tech space alliance) both sides crippled and the last stronghold of them is defeated by medieval man and magic ... again facepalm
Stronghold (H3) : bunch of goblins, orc, ogres as "bad nation" again with humans as heroes wihtout any description.
Dungeon (H3) : different beasts putted together and as someone mentioned its imaginable that they kill each other rather then living in a town/nation. Humans as heroes again. 
Btw i do not want to blame 3DO about this since their games gaved me hours of joy both in singleplayer and in hot seat mods. But i like better the "racional" fiction of the H5+H6 games.
One more thing about the units in H3 : every third creature was the king/queen/monarhc/chieftain/high lord/etc of their race. Nahh you are just kidding right ?
Back to the topic. For a race based town i think the ideal unit mix is like this --> 3 race unit and 4 other (i count riders as others not as race units).
About trolls *: someone remember the idea about trolls in Shadowrun ? When i first encountered with it, it was stunning but after that i really enjoyed it.
Pros-cons about H5 Fortress line-up : Defender, Runepriest good, harpooner/bear cavalry "iftheres nothing better", Brawler -> same porpuse but different background (animated statue, armor, elemental-type creature. Thane : the good old reason -> why dwarf in its name. Magma dragon - in its background not the creation of the dragon god Arktah but a "handmade elemental of his followers'.
About animals in fortress : do not ride the bear and/or the wolf. Why ? Both are carnivac more or less why should i ride something what is able to eat me ? And wolfs instead of bears since they are pack creatures so getting/gaining high number of them is easier than getting dozens/hundreds of a lonly hunter.
Steampunk line : its acceptable by me
My line up
Core :
-Defender,
-Wolf**
-animated armor/golem type creature even could be a weak shooter
Elite :
-Dwarf caster, (could be female)
-Troll*/OR Some "giant" (scale : horse/bull) owl/raven/hawk**
-The Role of Thanes a giant or a statue carved with runes chained to the souls of dead dwarf heroes/warlords
Champion :
-fire dragon (remain as the elemental creature like in H5)
- Mechanical/steampunk dragon without controller/rider
** : not the normal animal instead some "magical" type of them
|
| |
|
|
