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| Thread: Heroes 6 Fortress? - Love it, hate it or discuss it! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV |
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted January 29, 2011 10:08 AM |
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Edited by Kenishi at 10:09, 29 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
7. Shifter/Verdoger: Does the shifter always appear as something else and doesn't have a form of its own in game? If not, what's the base unit's description? The idea is great though and I have been considering it too for some factions (Inferno, more likely), though I will tell you no lies: It still is a rank filler because it's hard to find something that fits.
I would see it aa creature of some sort with a humanoid shape that takes the form of the nearest unit but dose/t keep it just shifts between the humanoid shape and the mirrored shape, but since Zenofex imagined it he'll clear up the mystery.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 29, 2011 11:53 AM |
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I'm very impressed by your level of creativity, even if I don't agree with all the decisions you used as the base for your work on this faction. I don't agree in only one Dwarven unit, and for all the work you've put into writing this, this faction suffers the same problem as the Heroes 3 Dungeon: I'm not convinced why such a different set of creatures would join together as one faction. Just saying that 'they chose to do it to expel outsiders' seems unsatisfactory to me. But obviously, that's down to personal taste.
In an attempt to give you some creature feedback:
- Demolisher/Grenadier and Runic Manifestation/Incarnate: I really like the implementation of these two creatures. The Manifestation in particularly is a very creative invention, and I think this would make a brilliant addition to a Dwarf faction, because it beautifully closes the gap between "dwarf" and "none-dwarf" (even if you claim this is a none-dwarf unit). About the Demolisher - I don't know if I particularly like the use you've made of the Cobolt race here, but the unit itself would work fine.
- Snow Sylph/Grye Ranger ... Meh, I'm afraid this will end up too close to the Radiant Glory and the River Spirit. Sorry, but we already have too many of these female spirit-like things.
- Faruku: I guess I'm with Kodial here; I don't buy this creature. It's intelligence evolution seems unlikely to me, and the whole "creature that lives apart and only comes through magical portals and joins factions for reasons that nobody knows" seems both sought after and unsupportive for the general credibility of the faction. I may sound a bit hard here, but for me this looks plainly like a stretch in an attempt to come up with something in order to fulfill the "only 1 dwarf" faction - i.e. a creature that's made to fill the gap rather than invented because the creature is actually a particularly good idea.
- Shifter: I'm a bit ambivalent on this creature. It's a solid creature, can't fault the story, abilities are good and fitting - I'm just not sure I would put it in this faction. Again, the factions points in too many directions for my taste, but that's just my taste.
- Dwarf Soldier/Royal Guardsman: This is the perfect dwarven concept - for a core unit. Good work on everything, but I second Kodial: This is not an elite unit. It's way too plain to make a good elite. It's abilities are underwhelming for an elite - in fact, I wouldn't have any trouble with seing a core unit with exactly these abilities. Again, I think the unit has been molded a bit too much to fit the concept for what is actually a good idea.
- Warmonger/Devastator: I love this creature. The concept is a very nice re-take on the Dragon Golem, and the description is excellent. A champion? Well yes it could be, I would probably make it elite, but then I'm oldfashioned and liked the Magma Dragon / Salamander / whatever name one prefers.
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 29, 2011 01:29 PM |
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You made some good work there Zenofex. No doubt about that. Some Ideas are rely nice.
I really like the Kobold concept. Even thou I don't want to add more and more races to the world this one is the insane type of race I have a passion for.
I also very much like the shifter idea. Even though it would be better as an neutral but I know it was functional i Disciples and it could work. (It would be terefic as a neutral demon) But Like we have said here, if you make it fit the Lore, then why not? And you did. it does so only plus.
What I don't like is the stereotypical only Dwarven warrior. For one I love the rune priest for second I think this concept should have one more Dwarve to sat free from the stereotype.
Another plus is the alternative for the runic Armor.
What i don't like is the Mechanic Champion. I know It is one of only a few options for the Champion, but for me, it doesn't suite the heroes dwarves.
But all in all. great peace of work
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted January 29, 2011 05:25 PM |
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Quote:
I would like to see Kobolds as spirits of the earth and deep underground, not like some future-based weapon holding granade launchers/stuff.
I really don't think exploding mines is something for HOMM games, exploding runes would suit it better, or magical earth based bombs.
Hmm to cut out the use of the of explosive and use magic, something like a rune cast(carved) on small projectile that the kobold activates with a catalyst (magically imbued liquid) and then they throw it, well I don't rely se the point of cutting out a mineral (sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate) based bomb after all they would have to rely on something more than pick axe to carve the huge caverns they make home of, and the existence of alchemy would be plausible.
So I guess both could work depends only on a person's taste what suits better for him.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 29, 2011 08:36 PM |
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Quote:
I would like to see Kobolds as spirits of the earth and deep underground, not like some future-based weapon holding granade launchers/stuff.
Gods, sound the alarms, NT and I agree on something for once.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 29, 2011 09:23 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:45, 29 Jan 2011.
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Thanks for all the feedback first.
I'm a bit surprised to see this many comments, my bold expectation was 3 at most. This is one of the reasons for the poorly described creatures and racial relations between the said alliance - I actually wanted to make the creature descriptions bigger, but they would have become too intimidating to read and on the other hand I don't know what is the limitation for a maximum amount of symbols per post in this forum - usually it equals about 20 standard MS Word pages on other boards. I also wanted to create a separate text with a detailed description of the Confederacy, the societies that form it (not only the creatures from the line-up, but the full picture) and how they formed the organization, plus of course their motivations to do it. I fully agree that the information provided via the creatures descriptions makes the whole structure seem artificial and built just for the sake of having more than 1 or 2 races in 1 faction and that it somewhat resembles the old Dungeon - which I like quite a lot nevertheless. However, I didn't have the time to create both the line-up and a detailed lore - these 14 creatures took me about two weeks because they were made during time stolen from some not-very-important-everyday-duties, which wasn't very much. It will take me at least two or even three more weeks to come up with the lore part and from what I see, the topic is dying already. So I ended up with the small text before the description of the Demolisher. If the popular demand is sufficient though, I'll consider expanding the thing.
Now, one by one:
@Kenishi:
Quote:
Personally I think that a lack of a representative for the clergy (Rune priest like unit) is the minus, if a may say so for me if the kobolds get cut replaced by shifters and put a Runepriest in is stead
The only "purely dwarven" unit is a warrior intentionally. The dwarves engaged with Rune Magic in the re-made faction are not staying behind the scenes at all, but they are mostly heroes, generals, creators of things like Runic Reflections, researchers and so on. I wanted them to be "too special for the front line", so to speak, i.e. to be the cherry of the entire race and explain its philosophy. Making them troops is a bit underwhelming for me.
@kodial - the Kobolds are too chaotic to be Elite, their attack has a good chance to harm the friendlies as much as the enemies and they can be disabled altogether with good troop arrangement. That's why I wanted to keep them Core.
The Snow Sylphs are a departure from the traditional (mythological) Sylph concept, I'm not following it closely. I wanted them to be (mostly) biological and to form a race, respectively a culture. That's a bit difficult if they are spirits like they are in the folklore. On the other hand, the approach with the male sylphs is a bit drastic indeed but I wanted to emphasize the difference between the Snow Sylph society and that of the Dark Elves which is usually the closest analogy when you think about matriarchy in a generic fantasy world, the one created with Heroes V in particular.
The Runic Reflection has nothing to do with a "summoned ancestor" or anything like it. And yeah, it's not a dwarf either.  My initial idea was to make it something like that, but I thought it will be too similar to the concept of necromancy and... well, overexploited already. The Runic Reflection is - scientifically speaking  - a magically created semi-material robot. It uses information recorded in the fabric of the world, but it does not take it from one place and put it elsewhere, but copies and reproduces it. In plain language this would mean that the said "memories trapped in a force field" exist independently from the Runic Reflection - say, in the soul of the dead ancestor - and the Reflection itself is something like a portrait. How good it will be depends on the skill of the Rune Mage that "draws" it. Hope this is clearer. This is actually one of the creatures that I wanted to describe better.
The Faruku were not supposed to replace the abomination that the Bear Riders were, that thought never occurred to me. And they are not actually insectoids, but it's my fault that I didn't make this clear. I wanted to make a detailed description of their species, including the reasons from the unusual development cycle and their odd philosophy, but when the description of the Mercenary became one Word page long with only a few mentioned details, I decided not to scare the people away even more.
The Shifter normally resembles what it was before the transformation to what it is, but somewhat twisted. For game purposes, it could be described as a humanoid who poses in an very uncomfortable way for an ordinary creature and has some mutated limbs - not like the arm of the new orc shaman though, but too long or short arms, disproportional legs and so on.
The Dwarf Soldier is supposed to be an Elite fighter in the true sense of this notion - something roughly similar to a human Paladin. He is not a cannon-fodderish Shielguard, but more like a shorter and a little less powerful version of the Thane. And this is one more case where I intended to explain their presence better in a separate lore-dedicated text.
In general, I admit it was not easy to follow the core of the Heroes V lore and create the faction afresh but otherwise it would have been too alien and unrelated to the actual game.
@alcibiades, the Kobolds were a bit problematic for me as I wanted to include them in the line-up without making them just one more race that allies with the other races. It is not me to decide how successful the current "privileged prisoners" explanation is though.
Regarding the Snow Sylphs, I imagine them wearing heavy winter clothes, maybe even hats and showing only their faces, not "dressed" with only artistic bikini and bra or even worse - tattoos - just because some people will find it nice to have scantly clad chicks in the mountains where the cold could kill even well-equipped and experienced survivalists. I really don't like the Heroes V female Dark Elves in this regard, they look like graphical sex posters for kiddies and make zero sense to me.
The Faruku were supposed to have much more detailed description, especially given that they are not familiar to anyone but me. I agree that the current one is not very convincing. The same applies to the rest of the creatures actually.
@Dave_Jame, yes, I know that the Warmonger is a bit out of place, but I don't think it's completely impossible to have it in the line-up. The engineering skills of the dwarves are apparent from the structure of their towns in Heroes V. I wanted the creature to be "less mechanical" than the normal mechs in the fantasy games - like the Dragon Golem from Heroes IV - and a bit more magical. Initially I wanted to emphasize the part which the Rune Magic plays in the creation better, but (I'm already repeating myself too much) the description of the creature was too long already.
@Nighty, the bombs could be anything you want, it's not necessary to be something "technological" - even though I see no problem with that.
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belgarath21
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 29, 2011 10:24 PM |
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gameplay vs. lore
I think that both gameplay and lore are important to a fantasy story.
However I think it is very important to keep in mind that you can have a great backstory (star wars, middle earth, narnia, harry potter...etc) and still come up with a lousy game. I once bought a star wars game (I can't even remember the title now) that left me very disappointed.
One of the beautiful things about lore is that you can create (or at least augment) the lore long after the game has been released. Middle Earth's lore was developed over decades!
Gameplay or playability (however one chooses to define and differentiate between the two) is a more immediate need. Especially with Heroes-- where the lore is based on the game instead of a pre-existing book, toy, and/or movie--the players need a fun game in order to feel interested in the particular fantasy world they are exploring.
I think we need look no further than Elemental: War of Magic by Stardock to see a possibly very interesting backstory hampered by a less than adequate game.
A few thoughts.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 30, 2011 09:43 AM |
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1. Kobolds: To say it more simply, I think that explosions would provide for a damage output that is too great for a core creature.
2. Snow Sylphs: I did notice the parallel with the Dark Elven society. But it still felt too drastic, like you said too. I know they're nothing like the mythological sylphs but they've got that fairytale feeling to them, that's what I meant by "keeping true to their fey roots". Still why did you need to create that comparison with the Dark Elves? Do you intend to introduce a connection or enmity? By the way, wouldn't it be better if sylphs appeared naked with something like sprites have to cover their nakedness, instead of wearing clothes? They are fey of the snow and the cold, they would not need clothes to keep warm.
3. Runic Reflection: Ah, I kinda missed the part where you said it looked like a giant eyeball or face, sorry. Hmm, now I really don't like them. They're much too abstract. I don't know how should I say this... The dwarves seems to be a kind of "solid" race of beings. It doesn't fit very much. But oh well...
4. Faruku: So what does it look like then? I just caught on the 'beetle' in your description and thought they were insectoid.
5. Shifter: But you have to have a standard game model. So you cannot say it looks like whatever it was before but more twisted. Cause the base creature could then be either a misformed dwarf, sylph, faruku or whatever but you need only one game model to represent it in the game. For this, you better change the description to something more specific.
6. Dwarf: I did get the way of your thinking before. I still feel to have a dwarf be that much, and then put him side by side with other creatures such as the sun crusaders or the lamassus, tormentors and griffins; make the unit seem (despite how strong you will it to be) very underwhelming because he is a dwarf. That needs to change. You could for example, without making any changes to the line-up, nerf the dwarf, buff the runic reflection and trade their places.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 30, 2011 11:24 AM |
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Quote:
6. Dwarf: I did get the way of your thinking before. I still feel to have a dwarf be that much, and then put him side by side with other creatures such as the sun crusaders or the lamassus, tormentors and griffins; make the unit seem (despite how strong you will it to be) very underwhelming because he is a dwarf. That needs to change. You could for example, without making any changes to the line-up, nerf the dwarf, buff the runic reflection and trade their places.
I dont't personaly see a problem in this point. If you look at Disciples, Kins bounty or DA you can see that a well made Dwarven warrior can easily look dangerous enought.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 30, 2011 11:54 AM |
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You've apparently never played in the D&D games I have or have run. One of the scariest things ever was seeing a Dwarf with a battle axe blocking your way in a mountain pass. Might as well been a storm giant . Of course...that is not near as scary as that farmer with a quarterstaff.  (Usually turns out to be an ex military man, god in disguise, or retired wizard..all of which is bad news).
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Message received.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 30, 2011 05:59 PM |
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But this is not D&D. In terms of Heroes mechanics, a regular Dwarf foot unit is too underwhelming as an Elite unit imo., and no, scaling him up to Giant size is not a good solution.  
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What will happen now?
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2011 06:06 PM |
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I think that in spite of the big negative side of a monotonous and boring lineup, H5 Fortress has potential, especially taking into consideration the interesting climate, Runelore, Heroes on Mammoths etc. There is a lot of Nordic Mythology creatures to exploit, while still keeping the best units (e.g. Rune Priest), therefore I think it's quite possible and (for me) favourable for H5 Fortress to make another appearance (on a side note: H3 Fortress has to come back too!) 
Here is my little suggestion of a potential lineup if H5 Fortress comes back:
FORTRESS
CORE:
Defender/Mountain Guard (Walker): Typical sturdy Dwarf.
Gog/Magog (Shooter): Gog as he appears in H3, less demonic. Native to the crater on which the Fortress is located.
Bear Rider/Whitebear Rider (Walker): Again, I think it would be better for the Bear to be on its own, although I'm indifferent.
ELITE:
Roc/Thunderbird (Flyer): Roc as it appears in H3, and Thunderbird being dark purple as in H4.
Rune Priest/Rune Patriarch (Shooter/Caster): Identical to the H5 one.
Fenrir/Hróđvitnir (Walker): A monstrous wolf from the Norse mythology.
CHAMPION
Fire Salamander/Magma Salamander (Walker): A H6 incarnation of the H5 Fire Dragon.
What do you think?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 31, 2011 01:35 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 13:36, 31 Jan 2011.
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We're talking about Might and Magic Heroes 6 here.
Just add a sasquatch/bigfoot/yeti-like creature, give it a generic name, such as Flamewielder or Firebreather and call it a day.
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