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| Thread: Heroes 6 Fortress? - Love it, hate it or discuss it! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 25, 2011 02:42 PM |
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Ok then if the environment of the mythological creature doesn't count when we're considering it for HoMM line-up, how about the Kraken for the Dwarven Fortress' Champion? It's a sea monster in the legend but who cares? This is HoMM right? We could also make it spit fire to be more in spirits with the Dwarven worship of the Fire Dragon. Say, the Ashan Krakens swim in lava inside volcanos. It's pretty good, right? And the upgraded Kraken is the Hydra. The Hydra is a huge squidlike fire spitting monster. The difference between the basic Kraken and its upgraded version, the Hydra, is that in the end of each tentacle, a dragon like head has grown.
So I ask you this:
Is this the kind of freedom you're asking for? Do anything, no matter how silly does it sound? Or is there a middle ground, a limit? Just how far can we stray off the actual legend of a mythological creature to create a version of it for HoMM? I'm sure no one of you would like to see the monsters I just described. So you tell me, what should we take into consideration before we decide to put a creature in a faction? There should be some kind of judgement.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted January 25, 2011 02:49 PM |
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with a bit of polishing your kraken could be a nice creature.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 25, 2011 03:09 PM |
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A lava kraken actuelly is a good idea.. 
to clerfy you what do I (and I think other also) mean. Don't lmit your self to one mythology (for example you might like Yety, but that is not a Nordic creature right?) But you should hold the creature concept. A Valkiery is a Valkiery, dont make it a man on a flayng shrak. keep the form. If we ar discusing a Moutanias/arctic/underground faction. try to finde som original ideas related to these topics..
But Lava kraken is great. (bu might look to simular to breed mother)
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 25, 2011 03:15 PM |
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Someone ask for a Lava Kraken?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 25, 2011 03:45 PM |
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Quote:
Someone ask for a Lava Kraken?
Yeah but that doesn't have hydra heads growing from the tentacles...
@Dave_Jame & Nightterror
You actually like that? I don't believe you! You would raise Hell (especially NightTerror), if Ubisoft would come up with it, I'm sure!
@Nightterror
You avoided answering my questions but yeah, I expected you to. But you did give me some hints as to what you base your criteria on. You said:
"A kraken in a land-based town is something different than a Thunderbird in a Dwarf Based town.
But if done right even that is possible, yes."
Well, the Kraken is as unrelated with a landbased town as the Thunderbird is with a Dwarven town. But somehow it's ok for you. What makes it ok? And even something as absurd as a volcano diving hydra-kraken is possible if done right, you say. Well, what makes it right?
@Dave_Jame
Hold the creature concept, you said. It's in the concept of the creature though, that a Roc is a desert predator and not an arctic one, for example. That a Valkyrie would rather fight Fenrir to death than join him. So apparently, you don't mean to fully accept the concept of the creature, but modify it somehow to make it fit in. What do you base your judgment on? What parts of the concepts are being ruled out and what remain? A little later you say "Keep the form". Is this your only criteria? And what exactly form are we talking about here? Through many legends and even moreso in the various modern interpretations monsters have been known to appear differently. For example, the Djiin. The Vortex they got instead of legs, is probably a disney invention. Certainly it's not the way traditional Djiins looked like. So the Djiin depiction everyone is using, is not true to its form. Or let me give you a more HoMM related example: The Gorgon. Everybody knows by now that Medusa was a Gorgon, and that they don't have anything to do with bulls. That certainly is not true to its form then. Do you approve of this?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 25, 2011 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah but that doesn't have hydra heads growing from the tentacles...
This would be the unupgraded unit then.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 25, 2011 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah but that doesn't have hydra heads growing from the tentacles...
This would be the unupgraded unit then.
Now close your eyes and imagine a dwarven Mammoth-riding general, leading a bunch of these thingies along with battle-hardened dwarves, Thunderbirds, Trolls & Yetis and wolves looking like Fenrir only much weaker; into the green pastures of a Haven region, for battle. FOR THE GLORY OF THE DWARVES!
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 25, 2011 04:02 PM |
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Quote:
Now close your eyes and imagine a dwarven Mammoth-riding general, leading a bunch of these thingies along with battle-hardened dwarves, Thunderbirds, Trolls & Yetis and wolves looking like Fenrir only much weaker; into the green pastures of a Haven region, for battle. FOR THE GLORY OF THE DWARVES!
You forgot the flying pigs. And Sandro on a pogostick.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2011 05:00 PM |
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I think a lava kraken and any kraken feels very odd and out of place for a dwarven town unless its like based on vikings.
How does it move around the battlefield? it creates pools of lava?
I could totally see a huge lava kraken as a boss though. But walking around on tentacles with the dwarves? The picture in my head gets really weird.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 25, 2011 05:16 PM |
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Ok, just so we're on the clear here.
Lava Krakens are a joke as far as I'm concerned. That pic was just one I had lying around.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 25, 2011 05:20 PM |
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I'll start from the end
No I do not approve the D&D gorgon. The Djiny was basicly a word for supernatural events like, Demon, Čert, Troll, Spirit... They didn't have fixed forms, but we gave them this form. And I stad for that we should keep this form if we want to use the name. That is my main crietieria. If it is a goblin, make it look like a Goblin .. ASO.
But the way the creature works in your world is all on you. Some mental or structural differences. Place were they live. This can by inspired but also can deviate in some mater.
A good example of this is thy Cyclops in Heroes V. It is Named after a specific creature, has its main characteristics but looks very different.
The last thing I think we should pay attention to is Logic. Would the Creature sruvaiv in the environment we want to place it in? A Ice elemental in desert? I think most of us will agree that this would not work, but change it into Glassgolem and it will work. A Sand golem would have it hard in an aquatic environment. But what is the problem in giving a big birds into Mountains?
And for the Kraken, I would actually Like to see this. The Balrog of Ashan. Its a nice combination of Balrog and the lake monster in front of the gates of Moria. The most important thing is that a good fantasy world should have an interesting lore. Heroes o its own could give a damn about lore but Ashan is a world, just like Warcraft or Warhammer or any other. and the way you create it will make it interesting for the players. When you create your faction you create the lore. that is why sou should think how is your world so special. What is so unique about it. So why not a fire Kraken? Why not an arctic eagle? Why do you think Ashan orcs are the way they are? To make them different from other games, to make them unique and attractive. You make your living with this world, and by copying thing from this world, you will have hard times making someone notice your work. Be creative and stun people by the fantastic world you created. If you try to make a living with it, you can't just say "well then go and play D&D if you like it better" you have to make people excited about your work. This is why why should let go of the Earth limits and make such factions more creative.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 25, 2011 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Um, Green Dragons have been in exactly two games, and if you're looking at it that way, it's the Angels who are the Black Dragons' prime opponents, Sylanna opposed Sylath, and Elrath, Malassa.
Yeah, I didn't see that logical fallacy before I was well on my way to work. It would be weird to not include green dragons though, seeing as green is the color most commonly associated with western dragons.
Quote:
No, but any reptile with 4 legs and 2 or more wings is a dragon.
I don't recall the fortress dragons having wings, but my memory is a tad bit rusty so I could be (and probably is) wrong.
Quote:
Thunderbirds
Well seeing as this is a prequel, maybe they could explain away the absence of Thunderbirds in H5. Maybe they got claustrophobia from living with the dwarves or something. Maybe the dwarves ate them, got "brain-zapped" and forgot their whole existence
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2011 06:11 PM |
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I dont see the problem with Thunderbirds for Dwarves if you want to go for a Mountain theme.
Dwarves were already associated with thunder, fire and to a lesser extent Ice in H5 so I certainly think thunder-, fire- and frostbirds could be cool creatures.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 25, 2011 06:15 PM |
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Quote:
Dwarves were already associated with thunder, fire and to a lesser extent Ice in H5 so I certainly think thunder-, fire- and frostbirds could be cool creatures.
3 legendary HoMM-units: Moltres, Zapdos and Articuno
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2011 06:17 PM |
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lol that could be a cool pop-culture refrence if those were ever introduced to HoMM 
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 25, 2011 06:43 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 18:45, 25 Jan 2011.
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Dave_Jame, your answer was vague at best. You did not answer me yet what makes you choose a creature over another. What is the criteria of your choice.
But as far as I can tell, after you have chosen your creature, you re-work it, so it is only loosely based on the original one but not too far off, maybe according some more modern interpretation of said creature. That is not bad at all.
However, I don't think you have consciously set any criteria upon which you will choose a creature. Let me tell you how I think. I base my line-up's on keyphrases. If I ever make any, ofcourse, which I don't.
For Example, we made this thread on hopes of creating a better Fortress than what we were given in H5. Respecting Ashan lore on Dwarves and their cultures, we should not stray too far off, if at all, from the philosophy behind their faction.
The keyphrases of the faction, according to me, are:
1. Dwarven Dominant Race
2. Seclusive culture
4. Patriarchical society
5. Scottish inspiration / possibly Norse too
6. Defense oriented faction
7. Affiliated with fire
8. Living underground
9. Using runemagic
10. Snow as native terrain
11. Mostly good alignment
Then I try to find creatures that match more or less, half of these keyphrases. After I do that, I make sure that the creatures I chose, are not enemies of each other. Such as Angels v. Devils. As not only would it not make sense to have them together in one faction, but it would add a lot to the game, if you had another faction to be the polar opposite of this and put their enemies there. Haven v. Inferno, for example.
It would be better too, if one would make a few minutes worth of research on the creature, he's about to use for his line-up. It's enough even to read the wikipedia article, and maybe follow a couple links from there. Not to make sure he's using it as it should be, but to help him get a better image of his creature and then rework it from there.
Anyway, this is how I do it...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2011 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
Canīt say their my favorite faction but you are fooling yourself in you think that Ubi will remake the dwarfs totally. Sure, they can mix up the lineup with more creatures and less dwarfs to some extent but they are still tied to fire. They will not be turned into another element or be given an ice-theme for example. They are the followers of the elemental dragon of fire. That will not change.
That still does not exclude the Thunderbird from the line-up. Look at the Thane, what is his properties? He's large, he's flying (teleporting), he has Immunity To Lightning, he has Storm Strike, and he can activate a Storm Bolt.
Now, substitute the word "Thane" with "Thunderbird" and give it exactly the same abilities, and you would have a perfectly valid and logical creature - in fact, one that's more logical than the Thane, if you ask me. You could even make an alternative upgrade of the Thunderbird and call it (*gasp*) Firebird, and give Immunity To Fire, Flamewave and Flamestrike, and you have, again, a perfectly valid alternative to the Flamelord.
So, does the Thunderbird match the line-up? Well, it's a giant bird, and it's likely to dwell in mountenous peaks. Does that match Dwarves? Live in mountains - check. Do we *like* the combination of Dwarves + Thunderbird? Well, that's a subjective question, obviously. I like it - but I respect if others don't, that's their choice.
However, I have trouble to understand why people would find it particularly illogical to have Thunderbirds with Dwarves - for me, there is nothing that speaks against it, other than the fact that it was with Orcs in H3. But then, Griffins, Hydras and many others have switched factions, so I don't really see that as a serious objection if one otherwise likes the idea.
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What will happen now?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 25, 2011 08:54 PM |
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Thanes are basically Giants with lightning properties.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2011 09:05 PM |
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On a sidenote, the Magma Kraken is awesome.
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What will happen now?
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garnju
Hired Hero
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posted January 25, 2011 09:19 PM |
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Edited by garnju at 21:59, 25 Jan 2011.
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I will give further details about my changed line-up
About the dwarven nation : the main six clan offer different kind of solutins to every question regardless if that s connected to relligon, science, craftmanship or everyday life. Usually if the new king is came from a different coalition the roles could easily change. However change does not mean that the old idea will be exiled only became less used in public.
Nowdays the dwarven army splitted to two major parts. One of them guards the underground halls, mines and tunnels the other handles the surface. Relligion splitted between the runepriest and valkyres, previous wants to return for the ancient teaches and the latter wants to redefine them.
Core
-Grunt-->Mountain guard: The defenders remain the backbone of the dwarven armies. These brave souls serve from the guardsman of dwarven cities and in both the subterran forces (who battle the escaped demons lurking above the land) and in the dwarf warbands who borderguard the kingdom's lines in the surface.
Main abilities : small, walker
-Whitewolf-->Frostfang: Originaly altered from their normal cousins by the tribal magic of the Troll tribes these beasts joined dwarven forces when their creators the Trolls declared an alliance with the sons of Arkath. They could reproduce with normal wolfes too (and rarely seen as members of a wolfpack) but these offsprings will not gain any special power.
Main abilities : small, walker, upgrade connected to ice/water
-Guardian-->Warmonger: Some of the dwarven warriors (either man or woman) take an oath that they will serve their nation beyond their bodies vanish. The ritual takes place in underground temples where the priesthood combines the ashes of the warriors remains with stone statue carved with runes. Despite that the sisterhood of the Valkiras and the priesthood of runemages often rival between each other about the the lessons of Arkath they come across that the finest example of the warriorspirit is lay within the ritual of Guardians.
The Warmongers carry armorparts and weapons similar used for the Mechanos.
Main abilities : small, walker, mechanical, the upgrade could shoot (with small number of shoots) connected with fire
Elite:
-Avenger-->Valkyre: founders of the sisterhood were the dwarf women among the warriors and priests (and also midwifes) their main role was to organize funerals, weedings and a kind. However since the Winterwind clan was always a bit different from the other clans their king offered them military and wizardy trainings. Nowdays their battlerole is to give magical assistance for the surface warbands (the underground forces still relly on the runepriests of the Deepflame clan).
Main abilities : small, caster+meele, teleporter, dose not rides anything, connected with fire
-Scavenger-->Thunderbird (scale : raven in a size of an ox) among the northern trolls the ravens quickly becamed the totem-animal for the tribes. Using the same ritual what created the Frostfangs a new kind of magical beast borned in the surface of Ashan the Thunderbird. However the ancient Trolls weren't Dragon gods (only the first creation of the elemental dragons who tried to use divinal magic jsut like their siblings Asha and Urgash)so just as the other magial beasts of the old ages these oversized ravens are less productive than their normal cousins.
Main abilities : large, flier, meele connected with lightning
-Freelancer-->Battlemaster : the Northern tribes quickly declared alliance with the dwarves dividing the surface and the underground between each other. However as more and more diplomats of the Falcon empire disapprove saying that its insane that a nation admits "hordes of maneating monsters" among themselfs and as the Deepflame clan becamed more favored by the new dwarf king, majority of the tribes left the land. The remaining trolls are mainly members of beasttammers. Their intereting influence is that the dwarf lords and chieftains often call themselves as Thanes witch is the troll leaders name.
Main abilites : large (like the orc chief in H5), walker, meele + shooter (again with small number of shoots) connected withh ice/water
Champion:
-Mechano-->Steamlizard : members of the Stronghammer and Stonefist clan hardly cover their pride when other clans amaze before the constructs. Using the knowledge of steam engines, gunpowder connected with runic magic the mechanos represents the technical advantage over the other nations in Ashan. However their role is questioned since the first attempts of the Deepflame with their dragonshaped fire elementals called magmadragons.
Main abilities : large, walker, mechanical connected with fire+thunder
I tried to give a reason for the questions "where are the H5 line-up units in this" and "where are the new units in the time of H5". They are still here/there only lost their usage in the main army and they are only used by only a few of the clans since they are not in the "favor" of the rulers. Ohh and the trolls and their beasts (frostfangs and thunderbirds) exiled the land slowly between the 2 game.
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