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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted January 22, 2011 07:32 AM |
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I like the idea of a construc-based faction (Forge), but would keep it separate from the Dwarves. I don't think Rune Magic + Engeniering is a perfect fit. I myself would rather stay with the Rune Magic / Norse-viking theme for the Dwarves.
Well not engineering to close to steam punk concept or non at all, because the dwarfs as many other fantasy creature are based on different aspects of human concepts (elves beauty royalty glamor, demons depravity chaos anarchy, dwarfs work kinship greater good just to name a few) so to see a bit of gunpowder, some war machines and even a bit of alchemy in the dwarf concept would fit right in.
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Yep, also spears suck for dwarves Why not give them a flamethrower instead
Could work, I wouldn't mind and for reference check out Disciples 2. 
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- The Brawler
- The Spearwielder
Neither, although the brawler like unit could work but needs some serious rethinking, from the H5 Fortress lineup is one of the units that wouldn't bother me to see it cut.
Dave_Jame awesome dwarf models.
On another note the thing that I think would work good for the dwarfs are a touch up for the terrain and walls for the Dwarven Kingdome, in H5 the road was kinda ok but the walls especially when nearing the city could have had drawings some rune carvings in gold, silver, blue that depict ancient heroes, battles and great events in the dwarven society, even if this doesn’t sits well with some at least in the castle screen I would like to see a bit of this depicted.
Oh and alcibiades you asked once what theme is more becoming better fire or ice , I would like to add that I would prefer fire but in H5 the whole castle sitting in the on top of a large magma chamber felt out of place, don't want to go in real life based motivation, but as impressive as it was felt exaggerated, maybe could have used some smaller lava river flowing on some distant walls.
But whatever the new dev do I just hope to see a dwarven faction (without the H5 Thane aka “scale-dwarf” or “dwarf-giant” concept)
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 22, 2011 06:01 PM |
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The Brawler/Berserker/BattleRager is the most likely unit to be dropped from the Fortress line-up, in my opinion. The reason behind this is that they could as well be human neutral units, they don't have to be dwarves. Besides, with the Dwarven Fortress being a so heavily Defense oriented faction, and with one fast striker there already (Bear Riders), there's no need for another.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted January 22, 2011 08:56 PM |
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The Brawler/Berserker/BattleRager is the most likely unit to be dropped from the Fortress line-up, in my opinion. The reason behind this is that they could as well be human neutral units, they don't have to be dwarves. Besides, with the Dwarven Fortress being a so heavily Defense oriented faction, and with one fast striker there already (Bear Riders), there's no need for another.
Too many people hated the harpoon user and the thane, i'm sure (and hope) they will end up in the dirty basket where Evil Sorceres and Mega Dragon already where waiting.
Actually while i am with you regarding harpooner.. I should disagree about Thane!
Thane is controversial, as many people don't like it , calling a Giant Dwarf a nonsence,
but many people Love Thane because of abilities etc..
Trust me Thane has much more supporters than you think..
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 22, 2011 08:59 PM |
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The reason behind this is that they could as well be human neutral units, they don't have to be dwarves.
The same could have been said of the Spearwielder as well, and probably the Defender.
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Besides, with the Dwarven Fortress being a so heavily Defense oriented faction, and with one fast striker there already (Bear Riders), there's no need for another.
Except that the Bear Rider would almost certainly be Elite, while a mere Brawler would realistically be Core.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 22, 2011 09:33 PM |
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I would stick to that the Bear Rider would by Core rather then elite. There are too many good Ideas out there to let them just pas away. (Rocs, Rune Priest, Valkiery, Living Armor, Thane....)
The problem with Thane was not the fact that it was a Big humanoid unit. But that it was a Dwarven Unit. In most of comparable games like KB or Disciples we have Giants in dwarven factions/alignments and nobody ever said a thing. If the Thane had been promoted as a Giant that Alieghned with the Dwarves there would by much less quarrel about it. If I would have to stay true to the concept of a Elite Teleport/flayer unit with elemental attack bonuses I would by chose between these two unites
Roc/Thunderbird
Giant/FrostGiant-StormGiant
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 22, 2011 09:41 PM |
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I would stick to that the Bear Rider would by Core rather then elite.
The Bear Rider needs to be Elite, I mean it weight several hundred kilos without its armour, plus the armour plus the dwarf, and then you take into account the fact that it has claws of its own...
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted January 22, 2011 09:50 PM |
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Who cares about weight? Then peasants would be elite, right?
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted January 22, 2011 11:10 PM |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 23, 2011 07:00 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:01, 23 Jan 2011.
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Who cares about weight? Then peasants would be elite, right?
Peasants don't get a ton of armour the way Bear Riders do. Ideally, Bear Riders would be at tier 5, maybe 6, somewhere where they belong, certainly not below some guy who only has a couple of fist-daggers.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 23, 2011 10:01 AM |
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Who cares about weight? Then peasants would be elite, right?
Peasants don't get a ton of armour the way Bear Riders do. Ideally, Bear Riders would be at tier 5, maybe 6, somewhere where they belong, certainly not below some guy who only has a couple of fist-daggers.
Witch is the first thing most of players here agreed that has to go. I would rather see "Bear rider" change to "Bear", but make it core. In compare to the other candidates I listed above, It doesn't have the same feeling like them
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 10:16 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 10:16, 23 Jan 2011.
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Who cares about weight? Then peasants would be elite, right?
Peasants don't get a ton of armour the way Bear Riders do. Ideally, Bear Riders would be at tier 5, maybe 6, somewhere where they belong, certainly not below some guy who only has a couple of fist-daggers.
Witch is the first thing most of players here agreed that has to go. I would rather see "Bear rider" change to "Bear", but make it core. In compare to the other candidates I listed above, It doesn't have the same feeling like them
No, no, no. Never!
Real animals are quite underwhelming when you pit them in a fight against legendary and fabulous monsters. Besides, placing an animal in the line-up, simply means you could not come up with anything better or more fitting. It means you ran out of ideas, no cool monster to place in its stead. And we don't want that now, right?
Placing a rider on the animal, and all that is fixed. That's why H1's and H2's wolves became wolf riders in H3. Therefore, Bear Riders ought to stay as they are. Besides, they're so freaking cool!! Bear Cavalry, dude! What can be more amazing, really?
Berserkers on the other hand have been legendary warriors throughout the legends, mythical or historical. Given that their battle rage is disabling them from telling the difference between friend or foe, is legendary. Then one can argue that the human factions don't wanna risk having them in their ranks. But since the wars that take place the decide the fate of all of Ashan, the Berserkers are caught up in it too. They would make perfect sense as human neutral units.
So like I said, it's easier to drop the dwarven Berserkers from the line-up.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 23, 2011 10:41 AM |
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Besides, they're so freaking cool!! Bear Cavalry, dude! What can be more amazing, really?
Freaking cool is not an argument and I really hate this collocation. So please don't use it if your not a 15 year old.
What is more amazing? Well, a 1,6(7) meter high walking armor animated by run magic for example.
Or my favorite from Czech mythology: Hejkal
A human sized forest spirit that can change shape to blend with the forest, and uses its high pitched voice to scare and paralyze its prey and then tearing it apart with its claws.
But back to the dwarves.
I don't think common animals should by overlooked. It's good to make a creature that helps to compare the true power of supernatural unites. But standing face to face to all the good ideas that have been made here. I have to say I think more and more that the Bear rider is expendable.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 11:32 AM |
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You need to be able to tell when I'm serious or just messing around. My valid argument points were:
1. Animals alone in line-up are underwhelming, they could do a better job as low level neutrals. No wolves, dogs, bears or whatever else as part of the line-up, it makes the game seem poor.
2. Berserkers could as well be a human neutral unit, and that's a very fitting concept. In my opinion more fitting than dwarven berserkers were.
I liked all the units of the Fortress line-up but if for variety's sake, I had to get rid of some, that would be the spearwielder, the runepriest and the berserker.
A. Defender is the classic dwarf unit, he must stay at all costs.
B. Spearwielder were great and all but one can say they were an isolated tradition of Grimheim dwarves and so whenever dwarves come along, spearwielders don't have to be among them.
C. Bear Riders isn't just another dwarf, since it is a dwarf on a bear. For that reason alone, it is not a repetitive design.
D. Berserkers, they could be neutral humans, like I said. We already have one dwarf of foot. And a defending dwarf fits the faction more than an attacking one.
E. Same reason goes for the spellcasting Runepriest. If there's a better idea for a caster unit, then he can be easily replaced. Besides I kinda disliked the idea that he was tougher than the Brawler simply because he was higher up.
F. Thane is quite an original design, quite intimidating too. I have no reason to take him out.
So by getting rid of Spearwielders, Berserkers and Runepriests, we are left with three very different designs for the remaining dwarves: The Defender, the Bear Rider, the Thane. If anyone feels these three remaining are any similar to each other then, well, he's crazy. 
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 23, 2011 11:50 AM |
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C. Bear Riders isn't just another dwarf, since it is a dwarf on a bear.
And Haven Cavalier/Paladin/Champion isn't just another human, because he is a human on a horse. Riiight!
No matter how many times I look at this... thing, I can't help but wonder why on earth does the bloody bear needs this dwarf on its back? Especially when it attacks with Paw Strike. The bear is perfectly lethal on its own and rider is added just for the sake of "coolness" (although for me it's much more childish than "cool"). And among other things, bears tend to stand on their back feet when angered or generally attacking something large, which is another reason to get rid of the stupid rider, who in reality will spend more time getting on the back of the bear than fighting (even if we assume that bears will suddenly like the idea of being horses).
Now all this does not mean that I'm in favour of some animals on the battlefield. It looked stupid before, it will looks even more stupid now. However, the Bear Riders manage to beat even the "war wolves" when it comes to ridiculousness.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 11:59 AM |
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C. Bear Riders isn't just another dwarf, since it is a dwarf on a bear.
And Haven Cavalier/Paladin/Champion isn't just another human, because he is a human on a horse. Riiight!
No matter how many times I look at this... thing, I can't help but wonder why on earth does the bloody bear needs this dwarf on its back? Especially when it attacks with Paw Strike. The bear is perfectly lethal on its own and rider is added just for the sake of "coolness" (although for me it's much more childish than "cool"). And among other things, bears tend to stand on their back feet when angered or generally attacking something large, which is another reason to get rid of the stupid rider, who in reality will spend more time getting on the back of the bear than fighting (even if we assume that bears will suddenly like the idea of being horses).
Now all this does not mean that I'm in favour of some animals on the battlefield. It looked stupid before, it will looks even more stupid now. However, the Bear Riders manage to beat even the "war wolves" when it comes to ridiculousness.
Paw strike was a special ability, the regular attack was made by the dwarf. And yeah, it is a dwarf on a bear but still adds a bit of variety to the line-up, same goes for the Paladin.
I'm glad you agree though that bears by themselves would look stupid. Actually I would not mind the bear rider leaving, as long as the bear would not be in either then. But you call it childish, can you come with something more mature?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 23, 2011 12:03 PM |
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Why in all the colors of Chaos would you get rid of the Rune priest? In a faction that is based on Fire and runes? He was one of the ussefull unites and represented the dwarven filosofie. Rune priest and Defender Are the only two unites that I think are nescesary for the faction
Brawler was a poor designed unit and bad even for its "Berserker" nature.
Spear wielders were fine but nothing that actually fit in that faction.
Bear rider !ARE! generic. its just a "Insert race" on a "Insert mount" Like Orc on wolf/boar, Elf on Stag/unicorn, Human on horse, Dark elf on Lizard/cat. It is just a generic maunt unite. You said that It was a sign of lack of inspiration to give a non supernatural unite but isn't this even lees creative, Just to put unit on a fitting animal? There are so many other concepts for fast "Cavalerie" type units. I havn't seen a chariot for a long time, and I would love to see on in Human/academy town. But just putting riders on "Freaking cool" animals. That bear would by more deadly without rider than with him.
Thane was a good idea but nobody likes a giant dwarf. Giants working with dwarves is common,like I listed page or two back, But a Giant dwarf are two words that acutely mean the opposite.
There were so many great ideas here
Fire toad as shooter
Fnerir as core beast
Runic Armor
Valkiery
Roc
Why limit your self to the 6 dwarf line-up. That moved the stomach of most of players.
If Ubisoft just deleted the dwarf from the Bear rider and explicitly state that Thanes is an Giants that have an Alliance with the dwarves most of this fuss wouldn't even happen
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 23, 2011 12:07 PM |
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But you call it childish, can you come with something more mature?
I'm currently assembling an alternative Fortress faction, which will have 1 dwarf at most and no Bear Riders. It will take some time to finish it though. The maturity is not the aim of the exercise, but I dare say that it will be more mature than the Heroes V Fortress.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 23, 2011 12:20 PM |
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Why in all the colors of Chaos would you get rid of the Rune priest? In a faction that is based on Fire and runes? He was one of the ussefull unites and represented the dwarven filosofie. Rune priest and Defender Are the only two unites that I think are nescesary for the faction
Brawler was a poor designed unit and bad even for its "Berserker" nature.
Spear wielders were fine but nothing that actually fit in that faction.
Bear rider !ARE! generic. its just a "Insert race" on a "Insert mount" Like Orc on wolf/boar, Elf on Stag/unicorn, Human on horse, Dark elf on Lizard/cat. It is just a generic maunt unite. You said that It was a sign of lack of inspiration to give a non supernatural unite but isn't this even lees creative, Just to put unit on a fitting animal? There are so many other concepts for fast "Cavalerie" type units. I havn't seen a chariot for a long time, and I would love to see on in Human/academy town. But just putting riders on "Freaking cool" animals. That bear would by more deadly without rider than with him.
Thane was a good idea but nobody likes a giant dwarf. Giants working with dwarves is common,like I listed page or two back, But a Giant dwarf are two words that acutely mean the opposite.
There were so many great ideas here
Fire toad as shooter
Fnerir as core beast
Runic Armor
Valkiery
Roc
Why limit your self to the 6 dwarf line-up. That moved the stomach of most of players.
If Ubisoft just deleted the dwarf from the Bear rider and explicitly state that Thanes is an Giants that have an Alliance with the dwarves most of this fuss wouldn't even happen
We have four walking dwarves in that line-up: Defender, Spearwielder, Berserker, Runepriest. If you ask me, they look different and I like them all. But here I am playing ball by your rules. Four dwarves and for variety's sake only one needs to stay. The Defender is the natural choice, since he's the classic dwarf unit. Therefore I call the other expendables if people can come up with better ideas to replace them.
The Runepriest did fit nicely in the faction. The arguement is that the Thane (who looks very different than any other dwarf and by no means, can he be called a repetitive design) can play the role of the Runepriest as the caster unit of the faction.
Bear Riders are just your token cavalry unit. True. Can you propose a better fast striker then? And don't say plain bears. I told you, it just means you can't think of anything better. Don't call them dire or spirit bears either. That's just sugarcoating a bad idea.
And I dismiss all of your great ideas as nonsense that would ruin the faction.
Fire Toads? Sillier than Giant Dwarves.
Fenrir? The freaking antichrist of the Norse mythology, the beast that was prophesized to slay Odin, a core unit in a dwarven faction? You better be a Nobel worthy writer to come up with a story that can give a good enough reason for this to be here, or it's even sillier than fire toads.
Runic Armor? Sounds to me like another well dry of ideas...
Valkyrie. Well, this one could fit if played right.
Roc? You do know that they were desert creatures, right? What's the matter? Can't you think of a snow dweller? Oh I know! Sinbad in his seventh voyage sailed all over to the land of the Vikings while being chased by that Roc! Bleh!
Bottom line is, if you think that the Giant Dwarf was silly, then all of the above are no better.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 23, 2011 12:31 PM |
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We have four walking dwarves in that line-up: Defender, Spearwielder, Berserker, Runepriest. If you ask me, they look different and I like them all. But here I am playing ball by your rules. Four dwarves and for variety's sake only one needs to stay. The Defender is the natural choice, since he's the classic dwarf unit. Therefore I call the other expendables if people can come up with better ideas to replace them.
The Runepriest did fit nicely in the faction. The arguement is that the Thane (who looks very different than any other dwarf and by no means, can he be called a repetitive design) can play the role of the Runepriest as the caster unit of the faction.
Bear Riders are just your token cavalry unit. True. Can you propose a better fast striker then? And don't say plain bears. I told you, it just means you can't think of anything better. Don't call them dire or spirit bears either. That's just sugarcoating a bad idea.
And I dismiss all of your great ideas as nonsense that would ruin the faction.
Fire Toads? Sillier than Giant Dwarves.
Fenrir? The freaking antichrist of the Norse mythology, the beast that was prophesized to slay Odin, a core unit in a dwarven faction? You better be a Nobel worthy writer to come up with a story that can give a good enough reason for this to be here, or it's even sillier than fire toads.
Runic Armor? Sounds to me like another well dry of ideas...
Valkyrie. Well, this one could fit if played right.
Roc? You do know that they were desert creatures, right? What's the matter? Can't you think of a snow dweller? Oh I know! Sinbad in his seventh voyage sailed all over to the land of the Vikings while being chased by that Roc! Bleh!
Bottom line is, if you think that the Giant Dwarf was silly, then all of the above are no better.
I couldn't agree more.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 23, 2011 01:11 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 23 Jan 2011. |
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Just to claryfay My ideal number of Dwarven unites is 3 (Defender, rune priest and "Bear ride or Shooter unit". Not that I don't count Thanes as Dwarves but Giants
The Second thing is that you should not focus only on Norse mythology. Look at the Ghoul, vampire, Liche, Naga, Gryffen.. do they resemble there original myths? No I do not think so, also why would Harpy by in a Aztec themed faction. Don't limit your self to Nation-country-Folklore of our world, but try to take there concept and adjust it to Ashan.
I will try to show you why I liked Those Ideas
Fire toad
Ashan Dwarves, as children of Arketh, have strong connection to fire. The fire toad is a nice representative of this connection whit out the Adding of a "Dragon" with are after H-V overused. It would help to fill the gap of the core Shooter whit out adding another Dwarf. This IMHo would by a nice chose "If there wasn't a Fire based champion unite"
Fenrir
Or to by more correct a Wolf based unit. Wolves are easily associated with snow terrain and would by a nice beast representative. The game is not set ind old Norse lands. There is NO Odin. So the problem of " He is evil and dwarves are good, can by easily cut out. They can by for example the spirits of snow storms, ore nature sprites White wolves are often said to by smart and have mystic powers
Runic Armor:
The problem with dwarves is that they are all up i the close combat thing. But how to make a unique short range unit whit out using of the "Dwarf with mace, dwarf with Hammer, Dwarf with Axe" concept. The Ashan Dwarves have there Runic magic. A way to enchant items, why not enchant an armor so, that it would walk and fight alone. A none dvarven that can have intresting powers. The problem is to make different from the Golem.
Valkiery:
Is one thing I think is nice, but, rather not see it. for one it makes the faction to connected to North, why I would like to avoid. I don't really wan't to justify it, but you no problem with it so I don't have to
Roc:
Oh yes why the roc, For one, yes it is not even near the arctic theme, but lets focus on its upgrade the Thunder bird. With is afcorse from a totally different part of world. These 2 unites were connected in Heroes III so it is not me but 3DO and co. who came up with it. This bird unite helps to fill the High mountain feeling and also could have exactly the same skills like the Thane. No changes, except the Model. They perfectly (IMHO) suit the high mountain terrain. Roc in my lineup would replace the Thane. If the Thane would stay, then there would by no need for it.
And to state my opinion on the Thane. I have no problem with the concept of this unite or its abilytes, But what do I have a problem with is its description. A Dwarf is a Dwarf and a Giant is a Giant. They can ally with each other but, not look like each other.
I know I can not convince you of my opinion but i do think that i can justyfye it
Mod > QP awarded for good contribution to forum discussion.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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This thread is pages long: 
