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| Thread: What would have happened... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · NEXT» |
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gnomes2169
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posted March 04, 2011 01:18 AM |
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What would have happened...
If religion had never existed.
I know that there are a few threads around right now (though one seems to have become a maturity discussion thread...), but this isn't just for religions. I'm asking what we would be like right now if we, as human beings, had never thought up religion. Where would we be?
Personally, I think that the world would have quite a lot fewer humans with quite allot less technology. Why? Because humans would not have had the same morals or mindsets that we have today. For example, what is a human? Little more than a bag of flesh surrounded by a thin layer of protective tissue, almost half of which is already dead, and a skeletal structure to support it. Sure, it's the same species as you, but that just means that you will be harder pressed to find resources of your own, and as long as that other spear holder is alive then it is a threat to you, your family and your food supply. It's better off dead than if you let it have the chance to harm you.
Right there we see the elimination of compassion for a human, the death of mercy and the absence of community. Sure, we would still be social creatures, but we wouldn't care for them beyond the fact of "What can this being give to me". Each individual would be the most important thing to him or her self at any given time, and there would be no togetherness that would lead to discoveries such as the automobile, sailboat or the cart (Wheel-barrow). Such discoveries would be made, but they would have taken a much longer time to spread and become accepted since there is no sense of fellowship or community beyond "You are weak so you will bring me what I want". these 'Weak' people would be statistically more of the smart and scientific people instead of those that can actually spread this thought, aka, the people in charge.
A religion gives people a sense of togetherness, curiosity and cause to see how close we can get to perfection. How close we can come to the Gods, if nothing else. It also gives us morals and promotes things like mercy and justice instead of endless, bitter revenge.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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1910
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posted March 04, 2011 02:12 AM |
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Well, all I can say is that the world would be a much better place, that's for sure.
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Warlord
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posted March 04, 2011 02:38 AM |
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This thread wouldn't exist either. Two birds with one stone! 
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Fauch
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posted March 04, 2011 03:22 AM |
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elodin would claim his mother was a virgin and we are his sheeps.
more seriously, it is difficult since there is quite a variety of religion (though, many of them seem pretty similar), but I don't think it would change much things. simply, people would have different beliefs. I mean, is there actually much difference between a politician and a guru? (some communist dudes would have jumped at that comment  ) religion is just one of many ways to name a set of beliefs, it seems. what's the difference between an imaginary god and an imaginary market?
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mvassilev
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posted March 04, 2011 03:37 AM |
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So many things wrong with the opening post.
Humans don't need religion to cooperate. If more people viewed themselves as the most important thing, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be technological discoveries, togetherness, or anything like that. It's in people's self-interest to live better. People (in general) benefit from each others' existence - not harmed by it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
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posted March 04, 2011 04:11 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 02:55, 05 Mar 2011.
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Don't know about the world. The OSM would be at least 80% better, though.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
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posted March 04, 2011 05:14 AM |
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It's not really a fair question. Sort of like asking, "What would have happened if we had never thought up hunting?"
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elvin
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posted March 04, 2011 08:10 AM |
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Quote:
Well, all I can say is that the world would be a much better place, that's for sure.
In other news fire is bad because it burns. It's naive to consider religion as the cause rather than the effect. Human nature 101.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 04, 2011 08:34 AM |
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The question is fine, because without religion we just wouldn't exist - or if we would, we wouldn't have come far in terms of development, culture, civilization and so on.
"Religion" is just a word that describes a need to find answers for questions that arise when consciousness develops. Some of these answers seem to have been necessary to build a civilization.
Simply spoken, the illusion to have answers - satisfying answers - allows people to concentrate on "building" things without thinking, it's all for maught anyway.
Reading the posts in this thread, however, it seems useless to elaborate or make a strong case.
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del_diablo
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posted March 04, 2011 09:28 AM |
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No religion?
More moral philosphy ala the greek would have replaced it.
It could have gone just as bad, but without the entire "God is with us, DIE HERETICS!"-aspect we all dislike about religion.
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Zenofex
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posted March 04, 2011 09:56 AM |
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I might join in but the OP is a bit vague and... limited. Is this about religion in general or just the Western understanding of religion (also quite limited)? Because, you know, contrary to popular belief, the Christianity/Islam/Judaism are not the only religions out there and actually more than half of the human population hardly gives a damn about them.
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friendofgunnar
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posted March 04, 2011 10:11 AM |
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Okay I have a real question for people that used to live in communist countries. Recently I read where Gorbachev said that he believed he would be with Raisa in the afterlife. I'd expect to hear that from anybody raised in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition but it's a bit surprising coming from a former communist party boss. So my question is after the communists had (mostly) quashed religion, what did people in the communist countries think happened after they died? Even if they didn't prescribe to any real religion did they still believe in some type of supreme being?
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bixie
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posted March 04, 2011 10:17 AM |
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people will find something else to get all prissy and protective about.
"NO!!!! You're a horrible abomination for having toast in the morning rather than cereal!!!! I KEEL YOU!"
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mvassilev
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posted March 04, 2011 10:18 AM |
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The Communists stopped quashing religion after Stalin's death in 1953. It was still officially looked down upon, but entirely legal. Many people were moderately religious. Some identified as Christian, others didn't. Some believed in an afterlife and others didn't. I think a significant proportion of the population had beliefs similar to those held by US Christians who "rarely attend church".
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Zenofex
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posted March 04, 2011 10:30 AM |
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Quote:
Okay I have a real question for people that used to live in communist countries. Recently I read where Gorbachev said that he believed he would be with Raisa in the afterlife. I'd expect to hear that from anybody raised in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition but it's a bit surprising coming from a former communist party boss. So my question is after the communists had (mostly) quashed religion, what did people in the communist countries think happened after they died? Even if they didn't prescribe to any real religion did they still believe in some type of supreme being?
I'm from such a country. The local regimes did not "squash" the religion but only suppressed it - it is impossible to root out something with millennial history which has become more or less essential part of the "national conscience" in such a short time. The thing is that the communist ideology turned itself into something pretty similar to religion which is exactly the opposite of what it's founders wanted the achieve.
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Elodin
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posted March 04, 2011 10:40 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:41, 04 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
elodin would claim his mother was a virgin and we are his sheeps.
No. Should I make up a statement about you too?
But seriously, we can take a close look at what officially atheist nations have been like and draw a reasonable conclusion from that. USSR, China, Cuba, ect. Oppression, mass murder, ect.
See, if there is no God, there is nothing that is moral or immoral so it would be logical to oppress others and take by force what you want.
Anyways, studies show religious people are more mentally stable, less prone to suicide, and more giving to others. So the world would be much worse off without non-atheistic religions.
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ohforfsake
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posted March 04, 2011 10:41 AM |
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@small guys
If, by religion, you mean we'd lack the ability to derive such an idea, then I think humanity would not be as technically advanced as of today.
Religion, itself, I think, have been the cause to a lack of development in science for centuries, but the cause of religion in the first place, I think, is very interlinked with science.
I don't think, however, that the concepts of science and religion have anything to do with eachother.
If you simply mean that we'd never have thought up the concept of religion, with god(s), etc., then I don't think there'd have been much difference.
It's not the specific text that forms the world, but the way people acts upon it.
My guess is that those in power did not limit others due to the text, but limited others to stay in power, using the text.
As Fauch would probably say, they'd just have thought up a different way to control people.
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Because humans would not have had the same morals or mindsets that we have today. For example, what is a human? [...] It's better off dead than if you let it have the chance to harm you.
I doubt there's a link between the idea of religion and compassion. Honestly, I think compassion is an evolutionary effect, and that it was included in the scriptures is a way to get people along with the idea.
My guess is that religion is quite irrelevant when it comes to the morals of today.
Likewise, I think there were communities before anyone thought up the idea of religion. My guess is that back then, it was not about being the strongest through numbers, but by being the strongest through muscular strength, i.e. an alpha male. I think we still see traces of this kind of behaviour in modern society, where authorites, in my opinion, really have no place, yet many wants to claim authority. Many wants responsibility, even for things they know nothing about.
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we would still be social creatures, but we wouldn't care for them beyond the fact of "What can this being give to me".
As Fauch would probably say, how is this different from today?
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A religion gives people a sense of togetherness, curiosity and cause to see how close we can get to perfection.
Let me see. When I first learned about christianity, I was eigth years old. First I didn't believe anything of it. Then a friend of mine said he did and asked if I didn't, so I did for the togetherness.
We never ever talked about religion again and had no togetherness that I in any way appreciate. Actually it just got worse with the years.
Then I kept on believing, but that was out of fear. Not only fear about myself, but others as well. If anything, it hindered my curiosity whenever I thought I ventured to the grounds of religion.
Finally, I thought that in reality, I don't know, and then I stopped bothering with it.
One of the main problems about religion is that all truth are set in stone. As such, it was a problem throughout the middle ages that certain truths could not be challenged and, iIRC, you could not perform medical research.
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promotes things like mercy and justice instead of endless, bitter revenge.
Religion more or less promotes everything. At least for christianity.
Eye for an eye... turn the other cheek.
People will take what they want, and they don't care if you think they're christians or not. They won't find you to be a christian either, if you should happen to disagree with their choice.
Anyone can derive their own logic, they can find the connections they wish for. Sitting back, knowing they may have a set of connections between different data that is consistent.
That just doesn't mean anyone else is going to accept their connections of the data, their logic. They might as well have their own consistent interpretation.
In reality, saying someone is a christian, and probably goes for all religions, or a politician representing a certain party, or any groupings that require several features of which you only apply to some, or where even some a contradictions. That, I think is meaningless.
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See, if there is no God, there is nothing that is moral or immoral so it would be logical to oppress others and take by force what you want.
No it would not. Maybe for you though. So let me ask you of this. Before you even knew about the concept of God, did you oppress others and take what you wanted by force?
Anyways, studies show non-religious people are more mentally stable, less prone to suicide, and more giving to others.
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JoonasTo
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posted March 04, 2011 10:51 AM |
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JollyJoker
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posted March 04, 2011 11:09 AM |
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People, religion is not about God Jahve, but much, much, much more. ALL peoples, we know of, had a religion, no matter where and when they lived, what they did, and what contact they had with each others.
Religion has always been a way to EXPLAIN the whys and hows of existance, and whether you like it or not, answers to those questions are a prerequisite for building a civilization, a society that develops, because it gives people a perspective enabling them to not only think about the Here and Now and about immediate survival. If everything has an underlying order, a purpose, then you can accept the harsh realities, live with it and go and build stuff, since it's not all for naught and in vain.
The thing is, the answers are satisfactory and convincing only, when there is no maybe. Belief is important - you must believe in the answers given, otherwise it's not convincing.
And if you believe, you build temples, you pray, and you don't want to live with people who believe otherwise.
In other words: IF you develop a common illusion on nothing but fantasy that enables you to overcome the harsh realities and rise from the mire of the fight for survival, not only that illusion has to be supported as if it was real, but everything that would threaten or endanger the cohesiveness of the illusion has to be "rooted out", "proven wrong" and generally fought.
Advantage and disadvantage, blessing and curse.
You don't get anything for nothing, or, everything comes with a price.
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Zenofex
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posted March 04, 2011 11:35 AM |
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Quote:
Religion has always been a way to EXPLAIN the whys and hows of existance, and whether you like it or not, answers to those questions are a prerequisite for building a civilization, a society that develops, because it gives people a perspective enabling them to not only think about the Here and Now and about immediate survival.
That it is and it does but the common perception is normally much different. The religion, like pretty much anything, is not what it should be but what it is. The fundamentals of every religion are some human necessities - need for knowledge, security, etc. yet it is far from necessary these needs to crystallize in some system set up around some deity, mysticism, belief in general - they can have very different manifestations which are no less "social" than the religion. In the OP it is more or less stated that the religion (I take it - the Western religion) is all but the core of the society and makes it what it is. That I can't agree with - human beings comes first, then their societies and then their religion, not the other way around. And every human individual is driven by too many things to be fully restrained by the limiting prescriptions of just one system of beliefs - that's why it is nigh impossible to have a perfectly religious person who is not a hypocrite at the same time. And that's why the religions with the most prescriptions ("laws") need to change and adapt to the full spectrum of the human behaviour if they want to survive.
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