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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 09:43 AM |
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I don't think you can rank religions in "degrees of stupidity" or even "degrees of evilness". You're setting yourself up for failure because that's very subjective.
While I agree with your post Cor, I think that we can pretty much set an unbiased "rank" of religious beliefs here. The main criteria would be:
1. Personal complexity of God/gods (with "trivial" human gods with strictly human personalties being lower tier)
2. Direction of teachings (Love thou enemies superior than thou shalt purge the heathen)
I'd say Greek gods were bottom "tier", since they were rather primitive as persons (sex crazed, malicious) and they didn't really have any set commandments, failing to give examples to their "sheep" with their own behavior as well.
But ofc one may argue about this. This is my personal feeling 
oh and:
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But as in most things, I think the problem is way too complicated to boil down to a single factor.
As usual, very true. However, people really love oversimplyfing and generalizing when it comes to history  Simply blaming a random scapegoat for event X, failing to notice ALL the causes and motives... To them, it's just religion/communism/despot. Always.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 17, 2011 11:36 AM |
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@Elodin, if you haven't noticed, let me say it explicitly - I am no longer discussing anything with you. It's not worth it. Just be aware that your posts are and will be completely ignored as far as I'm concerned and do prolong the life of your keyboard by not typing a response to what I'm saying.
If somebody else agrees or disagrees with the things I said and is willing to provide some arguments why, he/she's welcome to do it.
Sorry for the off-topic, just wanted to clarify my position.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 17, 2011 12:46 PM |
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@Elodin, if you haven't noticed, let me say it explicitly - I am no longer discussing anything with you. It's not worth it. Just be aware that your posts are and will be completely ignored as far as I'm concerned and do prolong the life of your keyboard by not typing a response to what I'm saying.
If somebody else agrees or disagrees with the things I said and is willing to provide some arguments why, he/she's welcome to do it.
Sorry for the off-topic, just wanted to clarify my position.
As long as you post publicly I will feel free to comment on your comments publicly. You can hardly expect me to stand by while you make false statements about my religion. If you are not up to the challenge of defending your statements perhaps you should reconsider what you are posting.
If you want to discuss something privately with someone you can do that through a PM or emal.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 17, 2011 01:56 PM |
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@Zenofex
Just ignore him. It's hard, I know, but you'll lead a happier, fuller life if you do.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 17, 2011 06:34 PM |
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Elodin:
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Anti-theists love to put forward the false claim that Christianity held science back in spite of the facts. Anyone who says Christianity is opposed to science is quite simply a liar or ignorant of the facts and just repeating lies others have put forward.
Then what did happen in the roughly 1000 year space from Eastern Romes fall to the birth to the point where the Copernican worldview entered?
Last time I checked, the church was in power, and it stopped roughly all evolution.
Nice little piece of stagnation you falsehood poster.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 07:20 PM |
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not exactly true, you know.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 17, 2011 07:37 PM |
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not exactly true, you know.
Why?
It is roughly true, with exceptions of some heretics in the start and the end, there was a complete stagnation.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 07:43 PM |
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@Zenofex
Just ignore him. It's hard, I know, but you'll lead a happier, fuller life if you do.
I agree 
I might from time to time provoke him by publicising the uncomfortable (for him) pathetic truth about religion (any) and human psychology, listen to biblical quotes and "someone has been telling you lies" accusations thrown at me in retaliation, and proceed to tell him why he's wrong. I will restrain myself from doing so for a period of time, however, as you said.
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 17, 2011 07:52 PM |
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Christian mythology was a huge step up from some of the ****'ed up **** that was around in the ancient world, not just with orthodox Judaism but many other faiths as well. It was a religion that appealed to the commoner, not to the aristocrat. After several centuries it eventually just became a channel through which the aristocracy could establish an iron grip on the population, but this is hardly unique and at the very least not any worse than having to deal with a fickle emperor in Rome that was perceived as divine. Relative to the ancient world, the Middle Ages actually were a big step up for the rights of people. Women weren't at all socially equal to men, but they most certainly were no longer perceived as property or somehow less human (hence an appeal to chivalry that is often romanticized in the medieval era, which while often exaggerated, is grounded in historical truth). Another question to ask is: where was slavery during much of the Middle Ages? (granted, being a serf wasn't exactly a stellar position).
Technologically speaking, I would be more than happy to send a 12th century English army against a 1st century Roman army that is twice its size, or more. The best equipment Rome can offer would get pulverized by the fine iron swords, lances, crossbows, longbows, chainmail, and trebuchets.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 08:35 PM |
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Why?
It is roughly true, with exceptions of some heretics in the start and the end, there was a complete stagnation.
The "dark" ages brought humanity tons of useful inventions nobody cares to remember nowadays, and important rights like the very first social structure not based on slavery. But nah, all that people can talk is how dirty and stupid those ages were and of course inquisition this, inquisition that. With less than 2000 documented kills over 300 years of Inquisiton' prime reign over Spain and Portugal aka the motherland of bigotry of those times, Inquisition killed less people than rabid dogs or a single marauder daily raid on a big village. But naw, the stupid tales go on and on.
I find it pretty unfair to judge Middle Ages solely on exaggerated events (and comparing it to "ancient world" that sucked in a million ways in comparison)
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 08:38 PM |
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Unfortunately atheism is neither rational nor the result of free thinking but is a rigid denial of the existence of anything beyond the physical. Locked mind. Locked heart. Bound by their false beliefs.
heh, that reminds me of someone 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 17, 2011 08:50 PM |
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With less than 2000 documented kills over 300 years of Inquisiton' prime reign over Spain and Portugal aka the motherland of bigotry of those times, Inquisition killed less people than rabid dogs or a single marauder daily raid on a big village.
To be fair (god, why do I always have to be the voice of balance??) the Spanish did pretty much decimate the native populations of the New World. Do you count that as part of the Inquisition? Mmmm... probably not. But the Spanish missionaries weren't exactly peaceful, either.
In any case, the dark ages don't have much to do with the Inquisition. That was much later. To be fair, the stagnation of learning during the dark ages (which I'd call any time between about 400 AD through 1066 AD) in Europe (not counting obviously the middle east, where Science - particularly science and math - was alive and well at this time) had more to do with the rampaging tribes of northmen then it did with Christianity. Vikings, vandals, goths, huns, picts, scots, angles, etc., etc. massively destabilized the continent and it wasn't until the establishment of strong powers in Gaul (France) and England (Norse Invasion) that society was stabilized in the west. Which is also when really organized religion established itself in Europe AND when the high middle ages began. So was there a correlation between the establishment of Christianity in the West and the end of the dark ages? Probably - but that doesn't really establish a cause.
On the other hand, the enormous rift in Christianity that occurred because Henry VIII couldn't keep his pecker in one woman has caused countless deaths and enormous strife over the last several hundred years. Ireland has been a complete wreck because of it. Oddly enough, the Renaissance, Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution, and etc. all followed, so did the breaking of the Vatican's power in Europe lead to a massive burst in scientific progress - directly?
As with all things, it's way too complicated I think to point to one factor and say, "Yep, that's it."
I mean, hell - we are all forgetting China, aren't we?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 17, 2011 08:57 PM |
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That's right Cor. however, I'm pointing out that people really underestimate Middle Ages in terms of quality of life/education/inventions but seem to get magnet pulled to Inquistion/Crusades' based topics all the time. Not exactly fair to those years 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 17, 2011 11:50 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:55, 17 Mar 2011.
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For all we know the Middle Ages in Europe were indeed not very a nice time to live. At all. The Crusades and the Inquisition are - by far - not everything even though they have their share (the Crusades were not launched only against the Holy Lands you know - the Albigensian Crusade for example is a very nice example of a large scale internal slaughter and even though the Inquisition was not officially established yet, this could be considered a mass proto-Inquisitorial cleansing which greatly surpasses the later "achievements" of Torquemada & Co). Much more disastrous was the overall hygiene of the regular European (one should not care so much about the flesh and all that) which led to the spread of many diseases that could not be cured properly as the medical knowledge was equally bad and the church dogmas didn't encourage its advancement at all. Much of what today could be called medicine then was "magic", "witchcraft", "Devil's work" and so on. The diseases probably killed much more people than the wars, even if we disregard the Black Death that wiped out between one fourth and half of the population of the continent.
Anyway, it is complicated indeed but the claim that the Middle Ages (in Europe) were very dark times are not baseless at all and the religion generously contributed to this. But I'll repeat myself and say that this religion has many different forms all over Europe and even though its influence was huge overall, it was never total - especially in the countries that followed the state model of the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. the somewhat incorrectly called Byzantine Empire although this name appears more than one century after the said entity is conquered by the Ottomans) where the secular ruler dominated the church and not the other way around. And all in all it was not the Christianity's fault that Europe stagnated for so long as much as it was its institution's fault.
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Technologically speaking, I would be more than happy to send a 12th century English army against a 1st century Roman army that is twice its size, or more. The best equipment Rome can offer would get pulverized by the fine iron swords, lances, crossbows, longbows, chainmail, and trebuchets.
I don't think that such a comparison is even possible. First of all, most of the medieval armies are far less professional than the Roman army at its peak during the late Republic and the first two centuries of the Empire. The Roman soldier during the said period is a professional - heavily trained for war campaigns, combat, tactics awareness and very disciplined while in the Western medieval armies you have a mix or highly skilled nobles, somewhat skilled professionals and mercenaries and nearly worthless peasants armed with something sharp or heavy. But even if we start crafting theories what would happen if these two forces meet, the exercise would be rather pointless as the warfare during these two periods differed significantly. During the Roman period the battlefield was mostly dominated by the heavy infantry while during the Middle Ages it was the heavy cavalry that was in the centre of the events. The Romans had begun to employ heavy cavalry themselves during the late Empire, copying the Cataphracts of the Parthians. The Eastern Roman Empire is actually what one could call "medieval Rome" as its army is a mix of the old military traditions and the reforms of the warfare and the "Byzantines" were usually more than a match for most armies of their time.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 19, 2011 03:32 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:16, 19 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
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Why?
It is roughly true, with exceptions of some heretics in the start and the end, there was a complete stagnation.
The "dark" ages brought humanity tons of useful inventions nobody cares to remember nowadays, and important rights like the very first social structure not based on slavery. But nah, all that people can talk is how dirty and stupid those ages were and of course inquisition this, inquisition that. With less than 2000 documented kills over 300 years of Inquisiton' prime reign over Spain and Portugal aka the motherland of bigotry of those times, Inquisition killed less people than rabid dogs or a single marauder daily raid on a big village. But naw, the stupid tales go on and on.
I find it pretty unfair to judge Middle Ages solely on exaggerated events (and comparing it to "ancient world" that sucked in a million ways in comparison)
I wonder how you would behave if you were to be put onto torture made by the inquisition...
Why do you keep telling us religion brought advances to science,this is bullshi.t.Heck,during the darkages,the only advancements were warfare related not science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
edit:
Ever watched Saw?When i first watched that movie,I thought like"What sick snow thought all of this?" or "how could they come up with this torture"
Later,I cam across inquisition articles.Check the devices they used against "heretics".
It seems that during the dark ages,new torture devices were all the new "trend".
Nevertheless,its more of a demonstration of human cruelty.
Could anybody answer me this question,what are these dark age heretics?
I mean,how could htey come up with the idea that somebody was a heretic,a witch?
How the hell were they able to determine if somebody was gay,jew or non believer?Did they use advanced brain wave devices that currently dont exist oin order to come up with that?I highly doubt that any of the offenders was an offender.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulf_Botulfsson
...Father Andreas, reported to him a case of heresy. One of the people of his congregation, the peasant Botulf from Östby, had one day after communion said that he did not believe that the wine and bread of communion was the blood and body of Christ. This was a severe crime against the law of the Church, which had decided to support and make a doctrin of the wiev that the wine and bread of the communion was not only symbolically but literally turned to the blood and body of Christ in 1215....
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 10:51 AM |
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I wonder how you would behave if you were to be put onto torture made by the inquisition...
Same as put under Vlad the Impaler's marauder army, Nazi Concentration camp, soviet gulag, aztec ritual murder or through Albert Fish's sadistic ideas. People torture people. And? Does that change the fact that Inquisition is exaggerated both in numbers and in methods? no.
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Why do you keep telling us religion brought advances to science,this is bullshi.t.Heck,during the darkages,the only advancements were warfare related not science.
I'm not telling religion did this, because religion is a set of rules meant to be a guide in one's life, and not a way to discover things. Are you blaming the right tool?
Warfare only? How about, say, Mechanical clocks, Printing Press, Eyeglasses? All discovered @ middle ages. Among thousand other, important yet underlooked things.
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Later,I cam across inquisition articles.Check the devices they used against "heretics".
It seems that during the dark ages,new torture devices were all the new "trend".
Nevertheless,its more of a demonstration of human cruelty.
You think that dying on Vlad Impaler's pole was any better?
You're acting here as if Inquisition was the only source of torture in this world.
People did this for centuries, of all religions, nations and political orientation. Yet just ONE gets so much attention and is exaggerated to extreme.
Why? Because it's trendy to bash religion? Most likely. I don't give a **** about trends however, and it's pretty obvious Inquisition was nowhere near other events in history related to torture. Neither was it as murderous or vile as portrayed.
Obvious explanation before someone makes a stupid point: I do NOT think Inquisition was a good thing, or just, or even having a point of existence. I'm merely pointing out the annoying exaggeration used all the time as some sort of "evidence".
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How the hell were they able to determine if somebody was gay,jew or non believer?Did they use advanced brain wave devices that currently dont exist oin order to come up with that?I highly doubt that any of the offenders was an offender.
Interrogation.
Every person can be broken to agree with whatever ridiculous claims the interrogator has just to stop the pain.
Worked with heretics, worked with Soviet prisoners, works nowadays with various factions. Nobody gives a damn. But hey, inquisition did this, they are sooo horrible.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 19, 2011 01:04 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:41, 19 Mar 2011.
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How about, say, Mechanical clocks, Printing Press, Eyeglasses? All discovered @ middle ages.
Let's be precise. The mechanical clock dates back roughly to the late Middle Ages, 15th century is very late medieval at best (the Renaissance is already a relatively wide-spread phenomenon) for the invention of the printing press and the eyeglasses are invented much earlier and well outside Europe. It's incorrect to say that there was no progress during the period in question but it is also incorrect to claim that this progress was anything serious (in Europe that is) as opposed to the Ancient times and especially the following epochs when the church dogmas preventing the advancement in many areas were weakened and ultimately ignored.
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and it's pretty obvious Inquisition was nowhere near other events in history related to torture. Neither was it as murderous or vile as portrayed.
Well, it's true that the direct consequences of the Inquisition's activity are usually exaggerated, I think you are underestimating them. The Inquisition, though not always directly through its officials, initiated multiple persecutions against pretty much everyone and everything that the church considered dangerous, including people who actually have some brain in their skulls and influenced or could have influenced the European ideological landscape. Take the trial against Jan Hus for example. As for the scale of the inquisitorial activities - I think you are counting only the people who were burned, hanged or died in prisons and torture chambers - I already mentioned the Albigensian Crusade above, which is just one of the bloody crusades inside Europe. The Spanish Inquisition led by Torquemada on the other hand had a well expressed anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim nature and its operations led to the expulsion of a large part of the two "minorities" from Spain (those who were still alive to run that is).
What makes all this more "vile" for the people is not the "trend" but the fact that it is done under the flag of a religion which preaches things like love, humbleness and spiritual perfection and in turn results in mass murders, oppression against the people who dare to think differently (or think at all) and enforcement of things which are not in favour of the humanity at all. Sound way too familiar, doesn't it?
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted March 19, 2011 01:50 PM |
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It's incorrect to say that there was no progress during the period in question but it is also incorrect to claim that this progress was anything serious (in Europe that is) as opposed to the Ancient times and especially the following epochs when the church dogmas preventing the advancement in many areas were weakened and ultimately ignored.
"Ancient times" were about 5 times longer than Middle Ages. And it was an incredibly slow time for advancement, excluding some philosophers or "wise men" that ultimately got ignored anyway by brainless masses. The "halt" of advancement was mainly due to barbarization of Roman Europe.
As for Inquisition, I truly don't understand your points. Yes, there were murders. No, the number wasn't high. Yes, Inquisition was a felonious organization. Yes, their activity is vastly exaggerated. What are you trying to say in addition to those facts I'm bringing up here?
(For those who don't know: Inquisition was a rather well-documented movement. Throught years 1540-1700 in Spain, there are "only" 1080 victims confirmed (out of over 80000 cases). That makes slightly more than 6 executions per year. And how much a marauder band could kill in a DAY? Take a deep thought about this.)
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 19, 2011 02:30 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:34, 19 Mar 2011.
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Ancient times" were about 5 times longer than Middle Ages. And it was an incredibly slow time for advancement, excluding some philosophers or "wise men" that ultimately got ignored anyway by brainless masses. The "halt" of advancement was mainly due to barbarization of Roman Europe.
Of course I don't mean all the time between Sumer and the fall or Rome even though much of today's knowledge and "advancement" was developed then. What do you mean "ignored by the brainless masses"? I'm talking about achievements that saw practical implementation and which could be considered "advancement" in general, not only ideas (and I already mentioned that even if we talk about ideas, the church's tolerance for different points of view was very limited). The Middle Ages are relatively poor in such achievements and frankly most of the innovations are in the late period when the old structures began to crumble. Compared to the speed of the progress after that, of course it seems like Europe has almost stopped for 10 centuries. And this progress is largely due to the uncovering and the application of the ideas of the Ancients (no pun intended ), not due to some glorious concept that appeared in the medieval period.
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As for Inquisition, I truly don't understand your points. Yes, there were murders. No, the number wasn't high. Yes, Inquisition was a felonious organization. Yes, their activity is vastly exaggerated. What are you trying to say in addition to those facts I'm bringing up here?
That the Inquisition's activities are normally exaggerated but you are doing the opposite - underestimating them. It seems like you are doing some body count which has a particular "threshold" after which you can say "OK, this is getting grim indeed". And I don't think that it's so simple (and also you seem to have only the Spanish Inquisition in mind). The Inquisition was a tool of the stagnation which not only killed people - which it did although indirectly (officially all executions were performed by the secular authorities) - but also enforced the most decadent aspects of the church's power which slowed down the progress further.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 19, 2011 02:32 PM |
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I'm not telling religion did this, because religion is a set of rules meant to be a guide in one's life, and not a way to discover things. Are you blaming the right tool?
I think that is a straw man.
If a group did something, they have done something.
You can not deny that they did not do it.
The problem with "religion" is that a lot of extremist(minority groups btw) are willing to go back to this level: Random killing and hampering all scientific advance.
A "religious group" did this, and it was despicable, it is not a argument against religion, it is a argument against religion as a group.
"Religion hampered scientific advance when the church got enough power in the remains Western Rome" is a fact.
RELIGION did it.
That is undeniable.
Change the question to: "Are todays christians yesterdays Christians" and the answer is "unrelated".
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