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Fauch
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posted March 21, 2011 07:38 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:57, 21 Mar 2011.
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But if we want to talk deaths, let us remember that atheists (Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, ect) in the past 100 years have been responsible for the deaths of more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history
Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin have been responsible for millions of deaths, but what does the fact that they were atheists have to do with it? you are blaming millions of people for the acts of only a few of them. yet you say we can't blame christianity when someone kills in its name 
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We see many thousands of Christian organizations dedicated to providing shelter for the homeless, soup kitchens, hospitals, orphanages, etc. NO atheist organizations that I am aware of do the same.
but those religious organizations make it clear that they are religious, no?
which isn't necessarily the case for atheist organizations. actually, I doubt there are many real atheist organizations. more like non religious organizations which don't care if people working for them are religious are not. actually, I don't see much point in claiming that your organization is atheist. or that it is linked to a particular religion.
maybe the christians you are talking about just crave recognition for their beliefs. otherwise, they could as well help anonymously.
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Corribus
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posted March 21, 2011 07:46 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:47, 21 Mar 2011.
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@Adrius
Which of course makes almost no sense. This rather ludicrous circular argument collapses completely with even a surface-level scrutiny of the logic involved. I've broached these issues before but Elodin of course never addresses them. Not surprising, really. *shrug*
Well, here we go again.
Consider:
Jack is a Christian.
Jack walks down the street and sees Joe. Jack walks up to Joe and they speak for some time. Joe says something that pisses Jack off. Jack pauses for a moment and thinks about walking away, but what Joe said has made him so angry, that instead he takes out his .44 gun and blows a hole in Joe's abdomen. Joe flies backward and lands on his back. He bleeds on the pavement for 30 minutes until the paramedics arrive. The paramedics rush him to the hospital, where he dies exactly 94 minutes after Jack shoots him.
At what point in the tale did Jack cease to be a Christian?
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 08:04 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 20:07, 21 Mar 2011.
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Alright, I'm gonna try and argue from the way I understand Elodin's arguments.
I think Jack ceased to be a christian the moment he started to hate Joe so much that he wanted to blow his brains out.
Now, if he didn't actually hate Joe, but was rather just having an insane momentary rage-burst or something, it obviously becomes more complicated...
Jack's intention may not have been to kill him after all... and after such a long time has passed the exact cause of his death may not be the gunshot itself...
Yeah man you got me there, haha 
That was rather enlightening, thanks.
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Zenofex
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posted March 21, 2011 08:17 PM |
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think Jack ceased to be a christian the moment he started to hate Joe so much that he wanted to blow his brains out.
In this case you have very few Christians on this planet, if not 0. What's the point in arguing about something (almost) non-existent then?
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 08:21 PM |
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Well **** I dunno, can't they seek repentance or something?
I thought God was like forgiving and stuff.
Can't exactly know what hate is to other people... it's a word open for interpretation. I've personally never been so angry that I've wanted to kill someone, maybe beat the **** out of them but not kill ya know.
Not really sure where annoyance turns into hate on the God-Scale.
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Corribus
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posted March 21, 2011 08:27 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:53, 21 Mar 2011.
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Of course we do have to play a lot of guesswork based on the story as I've told it. For instance, we don't really know from the story what Jack was trying to accomplish. I.e., was it his intent to kill Joe? (And that would bring us to another problem that must be solved - does it matter what the intent was?)
Perhaps the problem with the premise "argument" can be better underscored by changing the story slightly, however.
Suppose the events are the same, except that Joe does NOT die when he gets to the hospital. The paramedics save him. In that case, is Jack still a Christian?
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Zenofex
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posted March 21, 2011 08:32 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:36, 21 Mar 2011.
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Well **** I dunno, can't they seek repentance or something?
I thought God was like forgiving and stuff.
Can't exactly know what hate is to other people... it's a word open for interpretation. I've personally never been so angry that I've wanted to kill someone, maybe beat the **** out of them but not kill ya know.
Not really sure where annoyance turns into hate on the God-Scale.
I don't think you'll be able to get out of this mess if you start to think about it logically and yet make an attempt to stay true to the teachings. If you sin badly, you go to hell and yet God is merciful and can forgive you if your remorse is honest - so sin is actually tolerable - so it all depends of God's good will - so why the hell should you care what do you do if you don't know God's good will? Just an example.
Whatever, you can't ask from a human being, for instance, not to kill. Not ever, no matter the circumstances. It just doesn't work with our species and if there is a grand mastermind up there, he should be fully aware. Most of the ten commandments have an important social function and the people who wrote them (if, of course, you don't believe that they are written by God himself) knew what they were doing. And this is not some unique work anyway, most societies have similar "commandments" even without God as an author.
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baklava
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posted March 21, 2011 08:36 PM |
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The idea, Corribus, is that religion was not meant to be a tool any more than, say, philosophy is. It's been used as a "tool" by people abusing it, but that was not its intended purpose. In the particular case of Christianity, Jesus himself warned that there are and will be people who misuse religion toward their own ends for a long time to come.
You can also regard democracy as an idea of justice and freedom and crap, and as a tool for Hitler's rise to power. (BAM! Godwin.)
Every good thing can go bad in the wrong hands.
Religion is - according to a lot of atheists - wrong, because they have a different faith; the faith in the nonexistence of God. Practically, what they're saying is that believing in false gods doesn't have a purpose, and that if everyone believed what they believe, the world would be a far greater place, everyone would follow the truth and there'd be no religious intolerance and wars and stuff.
Every religious fanatic follows the same logic.
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you got the blues."
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 08:36 PM |
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I invoke my agnostic power and answer "**** should I know?" 
I have a feeling answering these questions would take me a few days of pondering... it's fun discussing though 
Gotta remember this scenario if I come into discussion with a christian some time.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 21, 2011 08:40 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:53, 21 Mar 2011.
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The idea, Corribus, is that religion was not meant to be a tool any more than, say, philosophy is.
I'm not the one who ever claimed it was a tool.
@Adrius
So, I think you see my problem with this line of argument, then.
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Zenofex
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posted March 21, 2011 08:54 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:55, 21 Mar 2011.
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Religion is - according to a lot of atheists - wrong, because they have a different faith; the faith in the nonexistence of God. Practically, what they're saying is that believing in false gods doesn't have a purpose, and that if everyone believed what they believe, the world would be a far greater place, everyone would follow the truth and there'd be no religious intolerance and wars and stuff.
Every religious fanatic follows the same logic.
Good, I agree that the pattern is the same, but most atheists I know follow the principle "live and let live" or at most "leave me alone" while many of the religious people that I've talked with have very low tolerance for "blasphemers", "heathens" and "ignorants" and feel some inner urge to preach and moralize which is nothing short of intrusive. I think we have an example in this topic as well.
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Shyranis
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posted March 21, 2011 08:58 PM |
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No religion is meant to be a tool, but there will always be politicians disguising themselves as faithful people that do many things against what their religion stands for. It's typical of the "ruling class" to be hypocritical.
Hence people who should be preaching love, preaching to bomb civilians or "family values" people in torrid love affairs. I'm not speaking of Christianity, this is something that all religions (and indeed, "rational athiesm") have been used for. The belief system isn't evil in and of itself, it's those that politicize it for their own personal gain that defame hat they supposedly represent.
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Fauch
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posted March 21, 2011 09:06 PM |
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what's the difference between religions and politics? it's all about beliefs
zenofex : I understand that he was talking about fanatics. I don't think he is saying that every atheist think like a religious fanatic.
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Zenofex
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posted March 21, 2011 09:31 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:32, 21 Mar 2011.
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zenofex : I understand that he was talking about fanatics. I don't think he is saying that every atheist think like a religious fanatic.
Indeed, but think which can create more fanatics.
This: "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me" (this is actually a pretty shortened version of the original but serves its purpose).
Or this: "I couldn't care less about God or gods"
Of course both religion and atheism* can be used as formal excuses to commit atrocities and one person is not better than another just because he is religious or atheist. The thing is that one human being is capable or pretty much everything and although this can be seen every day, most religions depict certain behaviour as abnormal, i.e. sinful and entrench themselves with the opposite of this "abnormal behaviour" - some positive moral values which lead to "the truth". They do not deal with the humanity as it is but with the humanity as it should be according to them. And, well, that just naturally results in the repetition of the same ugly things and people claim that the religion can't be blamed for nothing because it occupies the moral high ground above the repulsive reality. Oh well...
*This differentiation is not very accurate actually as the Buddhism - for example - is considered an atheistic religion. As always, it's not simple.
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Elodin
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posted March 21, 2011 09:38 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:44, 21 Mar 2011.
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If there was a "Flag as spam button"you would deserve that,
How much did your pompous post help this thread?You answered in regard to what?
Oh, so if someone says something other than Christians suck/Christians are evil it is spam, huh?
Actually, I was responding to the post by Corribus where he implied religion served no purpose. I explained positive contributions by Christianity and the lack of anything positive attributable to the religion of atheism.
Many atheists love to bash Christianity all day long but let one negative thing be said about atheism and they cry rivers of tears.
Oh, but I can post also when I just want to express an opinion rather than answer someone else's post. You seem to have the idea that only atheists have freedom of speech.
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Explain me the killings spaniards did to the native americans because they had to be turend into christians?
I already answered such false accusations.
We know from the Bible that anyone who claims to be a Christian but who does not follow the teachings of Christ is not in fact a Christian. Anyone who claimed to be a Christian who murdered anyone is a liar according to the New Testament writings. In fact, no true Christian so much as hates another person.
Christ also never authorized his church to punish any sinner for any sin beyond disfellowshipping someone who claimed to be a Christian but who insisted on living in sin.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Therefore we can safely conclude that anyone who says Christians murdered anyone for their beliefs is ignorant of Christianity or else a liar. You can say "Jesus is Lord" 500 times a day every day but that does not make Jesus your Lord. The Bible says if you claim Jesus is your Lord but are not following his commandments you are a liar.
Lots of people make the clam to be Christian but are living in sin. The Bible says they are enemies of the cross of Christ and their god is their belly [their appetites/desires.]
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Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jesus said to love, pray for, do good to, and share the gospel with sinners, not kill them. Anyone who claimed to be a Christian and who claimed to kill in the name of Christ is a liar.
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Explain why china,communist contry,is eating away worlds economy with its export superpower and why no christian helps to remedy this?
Huh? What do you expect Christians to do about China's export imbalance? That is a matter for nations to take care of. If China refuses to trade fairly and uses virtual slave labor then nations should slap high tarrifs on their goods. But that does not belong in the religion thread.
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Ok,hitler was a christian,he is a bigger masmurderer than anybody else.
Do I moam about that,
Somebody lied to you. The NAZI party is officially atheist and Hitler expressed his hatred of Christians when not in the public spotlight. Here are some things he said about Christianity.
Clicky
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National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, snows? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 09:40 PM |
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I want you to try out Corribus' scenario Elodin, you've already said those things a thousand times 
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Elodin
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posted March 21, 2011 09:47 PM |
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I want you to try out Corribus' scenario Elodin, you've already said those things a thousand times
Evidently you have never read the words or are incapable of comprehending them. The Bible says anyone who claims to know Christ but who hates or murders is a liar. I suggest you reread my previous post carefully becasue between the time I made the post and you made your post you certainly did not have time to actually read mine.
In Corribus's fallacious example Jack was never actually a Christan no matter what he may have claimed.
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 09:50 PM |
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Elodin
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posted March 21, 2011 09:54 PM |
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Wait what?
A true Christian is incapable of hate or murder. Corribus made up a fallacious example. Jack could not have been a Christian because he hated and murdered. A Christian is incapable of such things.
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Adrius
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posted March 21, 2011 09:59 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 22:01, 21 Mar 2011.
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Uh yeah sorry, I just got a bit confused cuz I didn't think I deserved that tone.
I'm not fighting for any side here, I'm only trying to reach a better understanding, which is why I tried argumenting from your perspective earlier...
So if I understand what you say correctly, there are only absolutes: Christian or not Christian. This does not change, EVER (?). A man cannot be non-Christian and then turn Christian.
So if a man claims to be Christian, but will in the future commit murder (as God is all-knowing and even knows the future), he is a liar because his future deeds render him incapable of being a Christian no matter how faithful he is before the deed?
And that would be why Jack is never a Christian and is a liar for claiming to be so.
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