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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 05, 2011 02:59 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 15:11, 05 Mar 2011.
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What would have happened...
If religion had never existed.
Well,nothing.You can't really say that biblical teachings are responsible to human discoveries because,imo,all religious books sound and look like they had been written by humans.
Full of imperfections.Nothing from a perfect all mighty,all seeing God or whatsoever.
I can give some basic arguments like "Earth had been created for 7 days".But still,these are still basic examples.I personally have the problem that the almighty,all benevolent God does nothing to prevent evil things from happening on our lives.Could any religous guy tell me WHY is God so quiet?Free will?
"Lets go torture some people cuz its fun"
Now,if I write a book that might become popular,would that determine if humanity would advance,murder or annhiliate earth?I dont think so.
Nevertheless,I think religion is best described by this quote,and its from a movie...
"Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose."
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted March 05, 2011 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
imo,all religious books sound and look like they had been written by humans.
They ARE! What else could anyone think?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 05, 2011 03:40 PM |
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People are entitled to think whatever they want.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted March 06, 2011 05:44 AM |
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Quote:
What would have happened...
If religion had never existed.
Well,nothing.You can't really say that biblical teachings are responsible to human discoveries because,imo,all religious books sound and look like they had been written by humans.
Full of imperfections.Nothing from a perfect all mighty,all seeing God or whatsoever.
I can give some basic arguments like "Earth had been created for 7 days".But still,these are still basic examples.I personally have the problem that the almighty,all benevolent God does nothing to prevent evil things from happening on our lives.Could any religous guy tell me WHY is God so quiet?Free will?
"Lets go torture some people cuz its fun"
Now,if I write a book that might become popular,would that determine if humanity would advance,murder or annhiliate earth?I dont think so.
Nevertheless,I think religion is best described by this quote,and its from a movie...
"Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose."
So what you are saying is that, if any and every religion never existed, there would be absolutely no difference? Positive or negative? I find that very hard to believe. Contrary to what many posters believe, many early civilizations rose centered on a group of selected deities (Most were aspects of the wind, water or earth and others were of the sun and night, but still, they were, at that time, gods). People used them to explain the everyday. Whether this was good or bad was why I made this thread. (Also, plan on asking more "What would have happened"'s other than the absolute absence of all religion.)
Plus, as a few people have reminded us, this is not just about the bible. This is all the way back to when people sat around camp fires and beet some stretched out and tanned skin while sacrificing a wild boar caught just for this occasion to make the sun rise during the winter solstice. This is before Christianity was even a dream, before the Greek gods and goddesses were even thought of, before we had tents made of sticks and animal hide. Therefore, I don't think we would have any books for you to wright. Hell, I really don't think that we would have much of a written language either... 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted March 14, 2011 08:51 PM |
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What would have happened...
If carthage had eradicated Rome?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted March 14, 2011 10:02 PM |
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If carthage had eradicated Rome?
David Lynch never made the Dune movie?
If Carthage won the war against Rome it may didn't cause so big differences as Greek were still there. The culture of the Middleage Europe originate from roman and greek culture mixed with gothic and celtic tribes.
And there are the arabians whom risen and storm trough the Northern parts of Africa. They may wipe out the carthagian culture as the roman did in our reality's timeline.
History is Time and Time is a very complex thing consist of many strings. The history of the Mediterranean-sea and it's surrounding is just on string while Europe's history another. If you change only one string you most likely can't alter Time itself enough or for a longer pace but you can create many new parallel.
I think that's more than enough for now
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 14, 2011 10:08 PM |
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What would have happened, had you not seen this post?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 15, 2011 06:00 AM |
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Jesus is a subset of christianity, not vice versa.
You seem to be ignorant of what Christianity is and who Jesus is. Jesus is God existing as a Jewish man. He ushered in the New Covenant that is a covenant with anyone who will follow him. Christians are followers of Christ. Christ is not a follower of Christianity.
So no, Jesus is not a subset of Christianity. 
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In any regard, the point was merely that whoever is in sufficient power, decides. The only reason someone would abide to christianity, if they'd not in any way been brain washed to do so, I believe, is because it'd aid them in their conquest.
Nah, Christianity does not engage in brainwashing. You are thinking of atheism, perhaps? We know that ALL officially atheist nations have always engaged in brainwashing. We see when atheists have lost power over a nation the people begin to turn to theism because atheism is highly irratinoal.
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PUNISHMENTS are utterly disgusting and unnecessary! People don't need any emotional pressure to behave properly. The need good lifes. Some may need a time by themselves, but it should in no way be regarded as a PUNISHMENT!
Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure. Liberalism has caused many innocent people to die because of their excuses for human predictors and wanting them to be on the streets where they can prey on innocents.
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If religion AND it's twin, political exploition didn't exist, the world would undoubtedly have been a better place to live, more organised, less suffering, more equality between people, and of course disbelief in the sheer fantasy religious teachings are.
Atheism's twin is oppression and mass murder. We see that every officially atheist nation has engaged in mass murder and rampant denial of basic human rights. Atheism has resulted in more suffering and mass murder than any other religion.
Christianity has brought enlightenment and is a prime factor in the end of slavery in the civilized world. Christians, not atheists, run the most orphanages, homeless shelters, ect.
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Religion = dictatorship, exploition and war
No religion = democracy, peace and science.
Somebody needs to learn some history. Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and a dozen lesser atheist tyrants caused the deaths of over 250 million people in the past 100 years. Far, far more than those caused by all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
Atheism is destructive to an individual, to the nation, and to the world.
Of course I am primarily referring to the anti-theist denomination of atheism. Dawkinites.
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Third, if you consider that an argument, what do you say about mass murders on Africans and enslaving them by the British, Spanish, and French, ALL very Catholic societies? What about the British and Spanish sailing to America and MASS SLAUGHTERING the natives, then building their pathetic churches on the "new territory"? Elodin, look "hypocrisy" up in the dictionary.
It is quite simply ignorance of the facts to charge Christianity with any murder at all because the New Covenant writings say that anyone who murders does not know God. Jesus said if you don't follow him you are not his no matter if you say "Jesus is Lord" every hour on the hour.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jesus taught us to love, do good to, pray for, and share the gospel with unbelievers. He did not say to kill them.
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As for the main Christian ideas about "Kingdom come", the salvation of the righteous, the damnation of the sinners, the coming of the Messiah... pretty much the entire eschatology and much of the morality are taken from the Zoroastrianism, these ideas were alien to the old Jewish religion praising Yahveh.
Sorry, but you have made false claims. The Old Covenant prophets spoke about God beginning to exist as a man to die to deliver us, and of the coming kingdom. You are obvious basing your statements on something other than a good knowledge of the Old Covenant writings. The coming of the Messiah is refered to in hundreds of places in the Old Covenant Scriptures.
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Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 15, 2011 06:53 AM |
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PUNISHMENTS are utterly disgusting and unnecessary! People don't need any emotional pressure to behave properly. The need good lifes. Some may need a time by themselves, but it should in no way be regarded as a PUNISHMENT!
Many people do need the threat of punishment to make them behave properly. Not all, of course, but relatively few people lead "good lives". The only thing keeping gangstas from robbing banks is the threat of retribution. These people don't understand "good lives" - they only understand that putting a bullet in someone is going to make them money, and they also understand that someone is going to put a bullet in them if they try.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 15, 2011 09:16 AM |
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wth... I'm done with this sort of crap! Waste of time, really.
I mean.. LOOK AT THIS!!!
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Jesus is a subset of christianity, not vice versa.
You seem to be ignorant of what Christianity is and who Jesus is. Jesus is God existing as a Jewish man.
Stating a BELIEF as FACT! Completely ignoring everything before the new testament...
Everything in it, it's rubbish really! The difference a community have from a book is that with a community you can actually communicate and thereby challenge the logic for a better understanding. THIS! This is NOT communication! This is spam!
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In any regard, the point was merely that whoever is in sufficient power, decides. The only reason someone would abide to christianity, if they'd not in any way been brain washed to do so, I believe, is because it'd aid them in their conquest.
Nah, Christianity does not engage in brainwashing.
NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE CONTENT POST! No! Instead just writes one big FAT NO! Combined with the typical "THEY DID IT!" In stead... I am quite confident the use of the word, "brainwash" in each quote is QUITE different!
Moving on...
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PUNISHMENTS are utterly disgusting and unnecessary! People don't need any emotional pressure to behave properly. The need good lifes. Some may need a time by themselves, but it should in no way be regarded as a PUNISHMENT!
Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure. Liberalism has caused many innocent people to die because of their excuses for human predictors and wanting them to be on the streets where they can prey on innocents.
As utter crap as Mvass post! All you do is put up a statement: "Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure.". Not backing it up the sligtest you expect this to be the absolute truth, as you follows, AGAIN with your completely irrelevant and BORING blame game.
I'll bet if you we changed the people who is within the group of liberalism, atheism, etc. with blacks, jews, etc. you'd have gotten a penalty for some ~50% of your posts. Because if one thing, your posts shines through with prejudice.
Or this...
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Many people do need the threat of punishment to make them behave properly.
Using some assumed statement that in itself makes the part it replies to invalid. Then building on, using the premise to get the premise as a conclusion.
Anyway, Elodin... Mvass... I hope that both of you will come with some more interesting, and actually useable replies in the future. That goes especially for you Elodin.
At least don't expect any participating, or response from me, until you do.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 15, 2011 10:25 AM |
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Quote:
Using some assumed statement that in itself makes the part it replies to invalid.
Every argument assumes something. That doesn't make it invalid. The fact is, if you ask one of the people I'm talking about why they wouldn't do something harmful, they'd say some variant of "Because I'd get caught", not "Because it's wrong". You act like you've never met people like this. I'm sure you have. If you try explaining "good life" to them, they'll respond with something like "Sounds boring" (if you're lucky) or "Shut the snow up, you snow!"
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Eccentric Opinion
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 15, 2011 10:32 AM |
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The problem is. You don't back up your assumption.
Secondly. Even if assuming that peoples opinion about a situation should be how they'd act in the same situation, does not mean they're unchangeable. That's the whole point of my post in the first place.
If you want to show that it's not worth it, you really either have to show that people aren't worth it, or that it's not possible for people to change.
It so much reminds me of our current HC system. You need some qp's to get rid of stuff like a post limit and a overflow timer. It works, we can see there's activity. But we don't ever consider the activity that could be, if we got rid of many of those useless features or at least removed it from the members who've showed that those features are unnecessary for them.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 15, 2011 11:46 AM |
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The problem is. You don't back up your assumption.
Are you denying that people like this exist in large quantities?
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If you want to show that it's not worth it, you really either have to show that people aren't worth it, or that it's not possible for people to change.
It's possible for people to change, but they don't want to. As I said, they recoil at the idea of leading a better life. Sure, they say they'd like to live better materially, but they're not willing to do what it takes to do so. Take, for example, drug abuse. There is no excuse any more for not knowing that drugs harm one's body and are addictive. And yet people still take them. The only possible conclusion is that they'd rather take drugs and commit crime than lead a good life.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 15, 2011 11:37 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:45, 15 Mar 2011.
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wth... I'm done with this sort of crap! Waste of time, really.
I mean.. LOOK AT THIS!!!
Are you calling your own arguments ****? 
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Jesus is a subset of christianity, not vice versa.
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You seem to be ignorant of what Christianity is and who Jesus is. Jesus is God existing as a Jewish man. He ushered in the New Covenant that is a covenant with anyone who will follow him. Christians are followers of Christ. Christ is not a follower of Christianity.
So no, Jesus is not a subset of Christianity.
Stating a BELIEF as FACT! Completely ignoring everything before the new testament...
Lolzzzzz!! You stated your BELIEF as a fact. That Jesus is a subset of Christianity, not vice versa. Have many double standards?
I made a series of simple statements that proved you wrong. Jesus came before Christianity. Christians are followers of Jesus. Jesus is not a follower of Christians.
Oh, ummmmm. I did quote the Old Covenant Scriptures. Don't listen to anti-theist lies that Christians ignore everything that came before Christ because that is one of the deceptions they enjoy making. I quote the Old Covenant quite often so that alone proves the anti-theists are spouting falsehoods when they make such a claim.
The reality is that Christians are under the New Covenant that Christ brought in with his death, resurrection, and glorification. Thus the Old Covenant is old. No longer in effect. The Old Covenant was with one particular people. The New Covenant is with all people who will follow Christ.
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Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Old Covenant prophets such as Jeremiah and Joel had said there would come a time when God would make a New Covenant. Jesus said he established that Covenant through the cross.
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Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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Everything in it, it's rubbish really! The difference a community have from a book is that with a community you can actually communicate and thereby challenge the logic for a better understanding. THIS! This is NOT communication! This is spam!
Yes, I would say your posts have been in the spam category.
Stating your opinions as facts again?
I certainly disagree that the Bible is rubbish. I do think anti-theism is rubbish however.
Oh, Christians discuss and debate certain things, so once again you continue to make false statements.
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Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure. Liberalism has caused many innocent people to die because of their excuses for human predictors and wanting them to be on the streets where they can prey on innocents.
As utter crap as Mvass post! All you do is put up a statement: "Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure.". Not backing it up the sligtest you expect this to be the absolute truth, as you follows, AGAIN with your completely irrelevant and BORING blame game.
I'll bet if you we changed the people who is within the group of liberalism, atheism, etc. with blacks, jews, etc. you'd have gotten a penalty for some ~50% of your posts. Because if one thing, your posts shines through with prejudice.
No, my post was not ****. It was correct and I will prove it.
Wait a second, you have been making all sorts of statements and backing none of them up and you whine about me not linking to an article about rehabilitation being a failure? Please stop the double standards.
Oh, so now you say criticism of liberalism or atheism is equal to being a racist eh? Meanwhile you feel free to bash religion and conservatism. Again, double standards.
Critiquing ideologies is NOT being prejudiced.
Oh, here are some shocking figures for California's prison system. The percentage of convicted felons who return to prison within two years of their release is 55.60% for males. Evidently rehabilitation is not working, as I said before.
Clicky
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2011 12:36 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 00:38, 16 Mar 2011.
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PUNISHMENTS are utterly disgusting and unnecessary! People don't need any emotional pressure to behave properly. The need good lifes. Some may need a time by themselves, but it should in no way be regarded as a PUNISHMENT!
Quote:
Many people do need the threat of punishment to make them behave properly. Not all, of course, but relatively few people lead "good lives". The only thing keeping gangstas from robbing banks is the threat of retribution. These people don't understand "good lives" - they only understand that putting a bullet in someone is going to make them money, and they also understand that someone is going to put a bullet in them if they try.
you see things a bit superficially. it isn't enough to notice that most people seem bad, you also have to know why.
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Prisons should be about punishment. Rehabilitation has been tried and is an utter failure. Liberalism has caused many innocent people to die because of their excuses for human predictors and wanting them to be on the streets where they can prey on innocents.
I read soeur emmanuelle saying that she trusted criminals and could convince them to become good. maybe people trying to rehabilitate prisonners aren't really better than prisonners themselves. (did you notice, in prison movies, often, the worst guy is one of the guardians) if everyone is prejudiced about them for one thing they did, no matter how hard they try to become better, it's not surprising in the end if they don't give a snow.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2011 01:13 AM |
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you also have to know why
Why? Because that's just how they are. Might as well ask why wolves eat deer instead of vice versa.
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Eccentric Opinion
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted March 16, 2011 02:05 AM |
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And on that note... *Gnomes drags the conversation kicking and screaming from the subject of Religion.* What would have happened if Carthage had Eradicated every last Roman man, woman and child?
Well, here's some of the logical conclusions: Charlemagne would have stayed as a clan leader with one of the Germanic tribes, since there would have been no Roman Holy Empire, since Judaism (And, subsequently) Christianity would have lost their main base of support. Aka, the original Roman Empire.
Christianity would probably not have spread as fast or as far, since its main supporters were the Roman Emperors. This would also mean that the European Kings would have had to come up with some other excuse (Probably something like, "Hey, look at my big army over there... Give me your corn).
The Jewish population would have been lower, since they had been kicked out of basically every other country. Or the Jews would have created their own sovereign kingdom. Still, they would be fewer or more concentrated (Or both) then they are today.
Government wouldn't have changed too much, since the Greeks already gave us Democracy
What do you think?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 16, 2011 02:37 AM |
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Quote:
And on that note... *Gnomes drags the conversation kicking and screaming from the subject of Religion.* What would have happened if Carthage had Eradicated every last Roman man, woman and child?
Well, here's some of the logical conclusions: Charlemagne would have stayed as a clan leader with one of the Germanic tribes, since there would have been no Roman Holy Empire, since Judaism (And, subsequently) Christianity would have lost their main base of support. Aka, the original Roman Empire.
Christianity would probably not have spread as fast or as far, since its main supporters were the Roman Emperors. This would also mean that the European Kings would have had to come up with some other excuse (Probably something like, "Hey, look at my big army over there... Give me your corn).
The Jewish population would have been lower, since they had been kicked out of basically every other country. Or the Jews would have created their own sovereign kingdom. Still, they would be fewer or more concentrated (Or both) then they are today.
Government wouldn't have changed too much, since the Greeks already gave us Democracy
What do you think?
Your theory has a critical and fatal flaw.
Corn is native to the Americas.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted March 16, 2011 02:40 AM |
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But maybe Carthage would take the role of the Roman empire?
Well, it doesn't matter. Let'sjust keep talking about religion, shall we now?
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted March 16, 2011 02:45 AM |
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But maybe Carthage would take the role of the Roman empire?
Well, it doesn't matter. Let'sjust keep talking about religion, shall we now?
*stabs Warlord... repeatedly*
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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This thread is pages long: 
