|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:01 PM |
|
|
So you see Adrius, a true Christian has no free will, because a person with unlimited free will is capable of anything. Apparently, a true Christian is only free to be good and not hate. So when God gave everyone free will, he damned them all to not be Christians. If you're capable of hate, you're not a Christian because Christians are not free to choose evil. Which makes you wonder why Christians have to repent for anything, if they're incapable of sinning.
See how perfectly it all makes sense?
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:08 PM |
|
|
@Elo
Weren't you the first to support the murder of turks on that boat when entering international waters, when even the pope condemned it? Weren't you the first to say you would shot anyone who enters in your house for stealing? No matter the specific case or not, taking someone's life is still a murder.
Of course, you would bring in "self defense", "protect my family", "yada yada". Obvious arguments which serve your only cause, but shows also to others in which material you are made of. Radioactive.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:09 PM |
|
|
Bak:
Quote:
Religion is - according to a lot of atheists - wrong, because they have a different faith; the faith in the nonexistence of God.
Incorrect. Atheism (at least the atheism of most atheists) is the absence of belief in God, not the belief in the absence of God.
Also, why isn't philosophy a tool? It's a tool for finding a way to find the truth and a happy life.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:11 PM |
|
|
@Corribus: I think I understand what you're saying... and yeah that is indeed pretty damn weird.
*goes into ponder mode* My mind needs time...
@Salamandre: A lot of emotions but no arguments, chill out.
____________
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:27 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 22:35, 21 Mar 2011.
|
@Adrius
The problem is that no matter how he spins it, he runs into a logic issue.
It's clever trying to get around the problem by pretending Jack was not a Christian to begin with, but it's cheating because he knows the outcome of the story. Even so, Elodin runs into a logic problem elsewhere:
If Jack was never a Christian to begin with, under the reasoning that a Christian is not someone capable of murder or hate, then the fundamental premise of free will is violated. If a Christian is a person who is incapable of choosing a certain action, then a Christian doesn't have free will. If a Christian truly has free will, he must be free to choose any path. Maybe some choices will lead to him no longer being a Christian, but he still must have the ability to make that choice.
For that matter, it's unclear why Jesus's sacrifice was necessary to save all these people, if those who are going to be saved are only the ones incapable of hatred. Frankly, I'd like you to point me to a person who is incapable of murder or hatred. Insofar as it is impossible to know the future, it's impossible to know what a person is capable of given the right circumstances.
For another matter, if Elodin's contention is true, it's possible that a person could go through their whole life thinking they are a Christian, when in fact they aren't merely because they are CAPABLE of a hateful act.
Imagine I get to the pearly gates after leading a perfectly virtuous life. St. Peter says to me, "Sorry pal, but you ain't getting in here!"
"Why not?" I ask. "Have I not lived a life free of sin?"
"Well, yeah, but my records show that you were CAPABLE of killing someone."
"But I never did kill anyone!" I whine.
"That's just because the opportunity didn't arise. If it had, though, you might have done it, and since you were capable of murder, you're not a Christian. Ergo, it's hell for you! HAHAHA!!"
It makes sense on no level whatsoever.
In any case, let's turn the story around so that Elodin cannot cheat by knowing the future.
Jack is a good man, doesn't steal, doesn't cheat, doesn't rape, doesn't murder. He goes to Church every sunday. He loves his family. He gives to charity. He's never done anything evil at all.
Jack is walking down the street and sees his good friend Joe. They start to talk.
Is Jack a Christian?
I mean, what's the answer here. Yes? No? We don't know yet? God doesn't know yet? How do we know what is in the future?
If the story goes on, and Joe tells Jack that he and Jack's wife had an affair, he just wanted to confess, and Jack loses it and kills Joe. Now the contention is that Jack was never a Christian to begin with because he was capable of killing.
But what if Joe is just about to tell this story to Jack and a bus runs Joe over. Jack never finds out about the affair, and he lives the rest of his years in blissful ignorance. He dies of old age having never hated anyone.
Was the Jack of the second story a Christian? Not, according to Elodin, because we know Jack was capable of hatred and murder under the right circumstances - ones that, by chance, never came about. So even though Jack never killed anyone, he's not a Christian and thus gets to go to hell based on what he might have chosen if future had unfolded differently?
Sorry, but all I have to say to that is: 
(For what it's worth, I've never heard of any Christian - aside from Elodin - claiming that God judges us based on what we're capable of. Probably because most Christians have more sense than this. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that humans are capable of just about any sort of depravity. What separates the virtuous from the evil in my book is what choices we actually make, not the choices that are available to us. And that is how God - (working under the assumption there is a God, of course) - would judge us in the After. I find it difficult to believe that many Christians feel otherwise.)
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:37 PM |
|
|
@MVass
I was talking about actual atheists, not agnostic atheists.
And if you define "tool" that broadly, then you've just answered what religion is a "tool" for, too. All in all, whether we call it "a tool which was meant for good but was often misused for evil" or "an idea which was meant for good but was often misused as a tool for evil", absolutely doesn't matter, does it? The difference only being which context we say "tool" in. So I don't really know what was the point of this bit of discussion.
Hence I didn't understand Corribus' question either. The only rational point I could think up was that he was implying religion had no purpose; that's why I said I was disappointed. But it turns out that he just didn't like using the word "tool" when it comes to misusing religion, for some reason.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:55 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 00:01, 22 Mar 2011.
|
By the way, I may not be Christian, but my parents were/are and they dragged me to Church every Sunday as a kid. I carried the cross to the altar, and lit the candles, and went to Sunday school. I sang hymns. I went to summer Bible camp. I went to Catholic school for several years and had to endure mass every Friday on top of it. I was Baptised and Confirmed, and I was married by a Reverend. So I do know a thing or two about Christianity.
My impression always was - or I should say, what was taught to me by my methodist pastors was - that Christians were regular people who tried to do their best in life but occasionally stumbled along the way. Sometimes they fell hard. Sometimes they stole things, sometimes they killed. That was, of course, against the teachings of Christ, but that's ok. Jesus died because he loved everyone so much, and because he knew that none of us are perfect. We are capable of great evil, because God gave us the freedom to move toward him or away from him depending on our choices. It comes with the territory of free will. A Christian is defined as someone who believes in Christ's message and believes that Christ died for the sins we would inevitably commit. And even if I err and do some bad things, if I repent and honestly ask for forgiveness, and try my best to be a good person, I can still go to heaven no matter how badly I fall in life. That was why Christ sacrificed himself, to buy me God's forgiveness should I ask it with a clean heart and clear conscience. Yes, no matter how many commandments I disobey, murder included, God would be there for me. And if I didn't turn from darkness, well I'd only have myself to blame.
Even though I eventually outgrew the belief in God or Heaven, or any of that, I always did think the belief system was a rather nice one, as it gives people a motivation to improve themselves no matter how far they sink in the gutter. But Elodin's perversion of Christ's message... it's horrible, really. To think that you're suddenly no longer a Christian (worse, that you never were one to begin with) because you stray from the path of righteousness - to me it denies everything that is beautiful about the religion.
For those of you who really know nothing about Christianity, I urge you not to take Elodin's example as representing what most Christians these days actually believe. As much as I see no reason for gods or spirits or any of that supernatural foolishness, the central tenet of self-improvement and rising above one's mistakes through spiritual introspection really is a beautiful concept and the world would be a much better place if people followed it better.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 10:58 PM |
|
|
@Corribus, most of these things have already been discussed by the theologians. The Calvinism has a good example of this contradiction and - like the other Christian doctrines, did not find it necessary to resolve the problem through logical means. The idea about the Predestination says the following - God determines the fate of every human long before he is born and the life just follows the predefined path. If you are supposed to be righteous man - then you will be a righteous man. If your fate is of a sinner - then you'll be a sinner. Yet no matter what your fate is and that it's already decided whether you'll go to Heaven or Hell, you have to do give your life to God. No wonder that other Christian doctrines frown upon this and prefer to think in a more pragmatic manner.
But anyway, the logic is a rational tool and the Christianity as all Western religions are based on the irrational - the belief in the Truth. The latter is self-explanatory but can not be explained, hence the individual can only strive to it following the guidance given by the Lord - say, the commandments and so on. So far, so good but the funny part begins when the believers try to rationalize their beliefs...
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 11:00 PM |
|
|
Now that's the Corribus I know.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 11:02 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 23:04, 21 Mar 2011.
|
@Zen
Quote:
But anyway, the logic is a rational tool and the Christianity as all Western religions are based on the irrational - the belief in the Truth. The latter is self-explanatory but can not be explained, hence the individual can only strive to it following the guidance given by the Lord - say, the commandments and so on. So far, so good but the funny part begins when the believers try to rationalize their beliefs...
I disagree. True, the central notion of a supernatural being is not a rational concept. But a belief system still needs to be internally consistent. If we accept God as axiomatic as a premise, the rest of the beliefs still need to logically extend from that premise or premises.
@Bak
It's good to be back, baby. 
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 11:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
A true Christian is incapable of hate or murder. Corribus made up a fallacious example. Jack could not have been a Christian because he hated and murdered. A Christian is incapable of such things.
well, corribus already explained it probably better than I would have.
Quote:
Jack is a good man, doesn't steal, doesn't cheat, doesn't rape, doesn't murder. He goes to Church every sunday. He loves his family. He gives to charity. He's never done anything evil at all.
lmao, that's so cliche
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 11:19 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 23:28, 21 Mar 2011.
|
Quote:
I disagree. True, the central notion of a supernatural being is not a rational concept. But a belief system still needs to be internally consistent. If we accept God as axiomatic as a premise, the rest of the beliefs still need to logically extend from that premise or premises.
That's only if you think that the humans lay the foundations of the religions and they (the religions) are supposed to serve some practical purpose. The theistic Western religions however start from elsewhere, from Plato. This world is false, a twisted image or a bad reflection of the real one at best and everything associated with it is thus not the Truth. If it is not the truth, then no notion that comes from this world is true, hence you don't have to make consistent what is predefined as inconsistent in the first place - say, the logic that is associated with this world. You are given the path, the law, the instruments, etc. and your job is to believe in them and to follow them. If you start thinking with this world's notions, then the Devil (to use a common Western figure) is already doing fine job clouding your mind.
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted March 21, 2011 11:31 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 23:36, 21 Mar 2011.
|
Quote:
Somebody lied to you. The NAZI party is officially atheist and Hitler expressed his hatred of Christians when not in the public spotlight.
The Nazi Party was not officially atheist: We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. (The 25-point Program)
Hitler himself was not an atheist. He described his religious experiences in WWI. He also wrote: "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race... so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe... Peoples that basardize themselves, or let themselves be bastarized, sin against the will of eternal Providence. [...] The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." (Mein Kampf). These are not the words of an atheist.
True, he wasn't a Christian either.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 12:06 AM |
|
|
@Zenofex
I fail to see how any of that has anything to do with what I wrote.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 12:08 AM |
|
|
|
isn't he talking about himself when he says "god"?
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 12:16 AM |
|
|
Bak:
The vast, vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists. In fact, I've never encountered one that wasn't.
As for whether religion was "meant for good", that depends on what we mean by that. Religion was originally supposed to explain the unexplained, but it does so by pulling things out of thin air. Nothing good about that.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 05:10 AM |
|
|
Quote:
So you see Adrius, a true Christian has no free will, because a person with unlimited free will is capable of anything. Apparently, a true Christian is only free to be good and not hate. So when God gave everyone free will, he damned them all to not be Christians. If you're capable of hate, you're not a Christian because Christians are not free to choose evil. Which makes you wonder why Christians have to repent for anything, if they're incapable of sinning.
See how perfectly it all makes sense?
Nah, you seem to have failed to grasp the meaning of the things I posted, which is not surprising for one who has a totally different world view.
Being a loving, caring person is not damnation, Corribus. I'm sad that you apparently think it is. 
Christians have a different nature than non-Christians. It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder. I know many atheists simply can't fathom than.
A man can't fly by flapping his arms. That does not mean that the man does not have free will. Man's nature is such that he has not the natural ability to fly. In the same way a Christian can't hate or murder because it is against his nature.
I know some atheists on this board have said people should not love everyone and that all people are NOT created equal. Christians and atheists have different natures and different world views. It is not surprising atheists can't understand us.
|
|
Kryten
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 06:53 AM |
|
|
I’ve stalked these forums for longer than I care to admit, and I’ve never felt compelled to post anything until I came across this thread. What I have to say is entirely off the stated topic, but then again, so are a lot of the preceding posts, and in any case I feel it needs to be said.
Whether he believes in it or not, the second paragraph of Corribus’s post a few posts back is a beautifully accurate description of the Christian ethos as I understand it. Yes, I’m a Christian believer. No, I do not (and will not) claim to be an expert on anything. So you can take my opinion and interpretation for whatever it is worth to you. But as far as I am concerned, this is the Gospel and I only have a few small remarks to add to it. A condensed version of what he said:
“. . . Jesus died because he loved everyone so much, and because he knew that none of us are perfect. . . . A Christian is defined as someone who believes in Christ's message and believes that Christ died for the sins we would inevitably commit. . . . if I repent and honestly ask for forgiveness . . . I can still go to heaven no matter how badly I fall in life. That was why Christ sacrificed himself, to buy me God's forgiveness. . . .”
Please note that the above is a direct copy-paste quote that I simply cut down with ellipses. So even if you are so far convinced that I’m a complete nut case (who knows, maybe I am), please trust what Corribus said, since his arguments are likely to hold more water than mine ever will.
I decided to post today because I was concerned about the misconceptions about Christianity that I was seeing in your arguments. As Corribus so eloquently alludes to, Christianity is not a religion of works, but of faith. As a Christian, I believe that I am a fallen and inherently sinful being. I can follow the Ten Commandments, I can do my very best to be a “good person,” but there is nothing I can do to escape my own sin. And when I am judged against an infinitely good and holy God, I don’t stand a chance. There is absolutely nothing I can do to earn my way into heaven. What can I possibly do to atone for ALL my sin when it has to stand up against what God has done for me? What good works can I point to when (as I believe) all my good works are actually the Holy Spirit working through me, and therefore are God’s works and not mine? This is why I need Christ as a savior—because I cannot earn God’s forgiveness and salvation on my own. If I could do it on my own, I wouldn’t need Christ.
And just as I cannot earn my way into Heaven by my works, Heaven cannot be taken away from me by my works. When I profess my faith in Christ as my savior, when I accept him as the one perfect sacrifice for my sins, ALL my sins: past, present, AND FUTURE, are forgiven.
So please, no more arguing about whether so-and-so would be a Christian if they did this, that, and the other thing. It’s not works, it’s faith. We all fall short of God’s standard. We all sin in terrible ways. And yes, even Christians hate. Perhaps it is not always the insatiable thirst for the blood of our enemies, but that is not the only definition of hate (shouldn’t Christians hate sin?). Everyone hates to some degree and in their own way. To take a holier-than-thou stance by saying “Christians have a different nature than non-Christians. It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder,” is a form of hatred directed at non-Christians and is likely the symptom of some deep-rooted sin. We are all sinners, and no sinner is better or worse than any other.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 07:36 AM |
|
|
If you need any more proof that Christianity is evil, look no further than the above two posts.Quote:
I know some atheists on this board have said people should not love everyone and that all people are NOT created equal. Christians and atheists have different natures and different world views.
"Love everyone"? This is implying that everyone should be loved. Why? First of all, why should you love people you don't know? Second, why should you love thieves, murderers, and other despicable people? And it cheapens love to think of your feelings towards your parent, child, or significant other if you think of your feelings towards them as similar to those towards, say, Osama bin Laden. If you don't have any reason to love a given person, you shouldn't.
Quote:
As a Christian, I believe that I am a fallen and inherently sinful being.
And Christians believe that everyone is fallen and inherently sinful. There's something definitely wrong with that. It's one thing to say that people tend to display a herd mentality and make stupid decisions, but it's entirely another to say that all people are "inherently sinful". You can't be wrong simply by being. It is immoral action that makes you wrong, and that's a choice. If you don't do harmful things and are generally virtuous, you are not evil.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 22, 2011 08:13 AM |
|
|
Quote:
It is simply not in our nature to hate or murder.
How about hating murder then? And correction: it isn't in your nature, it's in your little 10 commandments that you're assured of going to hell if not following them, you do it purely out of fear.
And hate IS natural and RIGHT, murder not of course. Regarding the common Christian psychology: it is far more frustrating to see someone restrain themselves from hate out of fear for their own wellbeing, than to see someone hate what should be hated and does evil. I'm not scared of doing so because I'm an atheist, there's no god, and I'm not limited in my thinking and lifestyle or even morals by some little puny book called the Bible.
Quote:
In the same way a Christian can't hate or murder because it is against his nature.
Pathetic hypocrisy again. You don't consistently rape farm animals and murder them in gruesome manners? And as for hating, many Christians regard the representatives of other religions as trash, others such as Muslims likewise, they're even worse. Can the fact not penetrate your fanatic skull Elodin, that (e.g.) the World Trade Centre attack was a result of RELIGIOUS hatred? There's a little counterargument to your Stalin overdose.
What about the conflict in Northern Ireland with Catholics and Protestants shooting themselves with friggin machine guns on the streets and many innocents/civillians dying? That isn't evil caused by stupid RELIGION in the hands of humans?
I hate religion.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
